PvP The PvP Subforum's Purpose

[jasonbarron]

You flatter me so.

Consider me a brother in arms in your quest. Let the jackals laugh - the lions are waking up.

Cleaning out the scumbag criminals from the CG yesterday with you and Zaphod was great. It's a beautiful thing when doing the Lord's work coincides so synergistic-ally with doing the local security force's work, too.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Cleaning out the scumbag criminals from the CG yesterday with you and Zaphod was great. It's a beautiful thing when doing the Lord's work coincides so synergistic-ally with doing the local security force's work, too.

Zaphod is cleaning up scumbags? That's news

 

[jasonbarron]

Zaphod is cleaning up scumbags? That's news

The three of us found a wing of players farming NPC's at the CG, and long story short, one by one their sloppy turrets & general lack of situational awareness in a hostile environment got them Wanted from shooting Phisto who was minding his own business nearby. Funny how the same thing happened to all three of them in rapid succession, like dominoes getting knocked over. Someone should have told the guy in the Vette not to run into the rock ring when trying to escape

By the time that escapade was over I was laughing so hard the guys were forced to mute me on comms.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Casual play rots your skills. It's true.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

The three of us found a wing of players farming NPC's at the CG, and long story short, one by one their sloppy turrets & general lack of situational awareness in a hostile environment got them Wanted from shooting Phisto who was minding his own business nearby. Funny how the same thing happened to all three of them in rapid succession, like dominoes getting knocked over. Someone should have told the guy in the Vette not to run into the rock ring when trying to escape

By the time that escapade was over I was laughing so hard the guys were forced to mute me on comms.

Ohhhhh THOSE scumbags, yes they sure deserve this.

 

[jasonbarron]

Ohhhhh THOSE scumbags, yes they sure deserve this.

\

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

If you have a problem with moderation or specific moderators you should contact Brett C, or another member of the community team.

What you shouldn't do is make slanderous comments ,alleging bias when mods make decisions you don't agree with; that's just trying to rubbish all moderators and claim the victim role.

Slander by definition must be untrue.
Truth is a complete defense against defamation of all sorts.

Always the same tiny number of faces whenever PvP is concerned. Is the PvP community really *that* small? [where is it]
Oh wait, I forgot. Jason counts for 10 of course... [big grin]

Why are you here again?
Your group of malcontents seems even smaller ftr.

 

[tafkabb]

You're adults. Pack it in.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You're adults. Pack it in.

Evidence of that premise is sorely lacking.
But when people have gotten away with it for so long, can't really blame them.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

But griefing, ganking etc. is very much PVP. Every time I tried to argue that attacking an unarmed ship is not PVP, every single PVP player I discussed the given topic with was trying to convince me that it is still PVP. So isn't it a bit hypocritical to have double standards and perceive ganking as PVP in the gameplay context, but not-PVP in forums context?

Yes, those encounters are technically PvP encounters (a player is attacking another player). If you had actually read and understood my comment, you would notice that I am criticizing the act of coming here purely to whine about such thing while ignoring all of the helpful advice being offered and insulting those doing so.

When someone comes here and complains about negative PvP encounters, the PvP players here will always give advice on how to perform better in such situations. If the OP's are 100% shut-off to helpful comments, then they shouldn't even be posting here.

 

[Han_Zen]

Yes, those encounters are technically PvP encounters (a player is attacking another player). If you had actually read and understood my comment, you would notice that I am criticizing the act of coming here purely to whine about such thing while ignoring all of the helpful advice being offered and insulting those doing so.

When someone comes here and complains about negative PvP encounters, the PvP players here will always give advice on how to perform better in such situations. If the OP's are 100% shut-off to helpful comments, then they shouldn't even be posting here.

It's a sensible attitude to take advice on how to play the game we actually have. Complaining about how other players play it, is never fruitful. This goes for ganks in open, undermining in solo, menu logging or the use of premium ammo.
These things are part of the game and we are better of adapting to them than complaining that they are utilized by others.

Criticizing the game mechanics that allows your personal element of dissatisfaction to happen, is a different matter. It's necessary to discuss how we want the game to function.

There are of course plenty of technical limitations to what can be achieved in a game like ED. Ideas that are impossible, have poor cost/benefit or goes against the wishes of the majority of the player base are not likely to ever get implemented.

In essence.
Play the game you have and lett other players do the same.

 

[Truesilver]

The fundamental problem is that without self-imposed limits, the combat balance is ... frankly almost none-existent now.

In PvP duelling, this means that players cannot even see whether the other guy is using premium. Unless bringing crazy amounts of chaff, even refusing to use gimballed weapons is essentially self-limiting, as due to hp inflation, gimbals will usually outlast double chaff. (Gimballed multis, for example, are almost laughably overpowered compared to fixed, in 3.0 PvP, partly due to ship velocity increases and boost changes.) Booster stacking endlessly offers advantages that only self-limitation prevents. Reverski plus hitscan long range is checkmate against any ship not carrying the same. The list of ways2win that can only be excluded via self-limitation is near endless.

The way around the above is via agreed rules, in arranged fights, and peer pressure, in spontaneous duelling. But both of those (particularly the latter) give rise to OOC arguments. It is a terrible indictment of the game that much of PvP is spent arguing about how people are or aren't allowed to outfit or fly. The game should take the argument away.

The combat balance can be well-measured by the amount of rules argument engendered. Nobody goes into a game of Chess screaming 'knights should not be allowed to jump'. When we get to a game like tabletop Warhammer, some 'house' limits are often agreed. When we get to ED the arguments could literally be turned into legal submissions for a two week court case.

Meanwhile in wings, obviously problems are magnified, with stacked premium plus healing plus HD booster stacking being just one example of how a wing is practically guaranteed to achieve first focus break over a wing doing anything but the same.

When we come to blowing up a soft target, we see practically the only situation in which true 'bare knuckle' PvP is applied, with lulz premium rapid fire frags, premium thermal conduit plasma etc employed (at least by some) in full force. Hence ironically the self-limitations come off in the situation in which the disparity between attacker(s) and defender begins already at its greatest.

In essence.
Play the game you have and lett other players do the same.

The problem is that when we do that, the game is more often that not rather ... 'troubled'.

 

[Han_Zen]

The problem is that when we do that, the game is more often that not rather ... 'troubled'.

It's still the game we have. If we try to fix it's shortcomings by imposing 'social rules' on other players, we just muddy the water.

Premium ammo and healing beams are typical examples. If few players use them because they are not socially accepted, the issues are more likely to be ignored by FD.

 

[Riverside]

Yes, those encounters are technically PvP encounters (a player is attacking another player). If you had actually read and understood my comment, you would notice that I am criticizing the act of coming here purely to whine about such thing while ignoring all of the helpful advice being offered and insulting those doing so.

When someone comes here and complains about negative PvP encounters, the PvP players here will always give advice on how to perform better in such situations. If the OP's are 100% shut-off to helpful comments, then they shouldn't even be posting here.

What do you think about the fidelity of advice given here, do you think it's easily accessible to someone unfamiliar with the territory? Is it easy to find good advice?

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

What do you think about the fidelity of advice given here, do you think it's easily accessible to someone unfamiliar with the territory? Is it easy to find good advice?

Absolutely not, and I think it's wrong that the core game mechanics and helpful knowledge are so hard to get for newer players.

None of the in-game tutorials or official Frontier info pages ever say anything about SYS pips affecting shields, highwaking ignoring masslock, interdiction submission removing cooldowns, good outfitting choices, or anything regarding open play survival.
If you head over to the dangerous discussion section of this forum as a new player (even so, I bet 70%+ of new players never even visit the forums to begin with) and ask how to avoid gankers in open, the thread will be filled with pages of instructions on how to block people, a few mobius links, advice on playing in solo only, a lot of criticism of "open play pvp psychopaths", all ending in the thread being locked for being "off topic". As a result, people end up playing in a way that never actually makes them learn the game mechanics and enjoy themselves in open.

Hell, even Frontier's own livestreams make it painfully obvious that they themselves lack the knowledge on how to survive in the game. Only lately has Ed Lewis begun to start trying to highwake from people that streamsnipe him because it happens so often, and even still he doesn't submit to interdictions (leading to long FSD cooldowns and death anyway).

Something has to change.

 

[Riverside]

Absolutely not, and I think it's wrong that the core game mechanics and helpful knowledge are so hard to get for newer players.

None of the in-game tutorials or official Frontier info pages ever say anything about SYS pips affecting shields, highwaking ignoring masslock, interdiction submission removing cooldowns, good outfitting choices, or anything regarding open play survival.
If you head over to the dangerous discussion section of this forum as a new player (even so, I bet 70%+ of new players never even visit the forums to begin with) and ask how to avoid gankers in open, the thread will be filled with pages of instructions on how to block people, a few mobius links, advice on playing in solo only, a lot of criticism of "open play pvp psychopaths", <Nope> all ending in the thread being locked. As a result, people end up playing in a way that never actually makes them learn the game mechanics and enjoy themselves in open.

Hell, even Frontier's own livestreams make it painfully obvious that they themselves lack the knowledge on how to survive in the game. Only lately has Ed Lewis begun to start trying to highwake from people that streamsnipe him because it happens so often, and even still he doesn't submit to interdictions (leading to long FSD cooldowns and death anyway).

Something has to change.

Why are you expecting the game developer to tell people how to play a game that infamously drops the player in at the deep end?
Surely if the community sees a need they can rise to this challenge.

Take a look at the other forum sub-sections, like BGS for example. You'll see helpful guides & how-to's explaining mechanisms much more complex than how to survive, how to improve your DPS & hitpoints.

There is a clear antagonism for advice from the 'wrong' people in here, but the 'right' ones are unwilling or unable to do it. So it seems to me the thing that needs to change is one of those two; put in the effort to improve the place or be prepared to accept some one else's effort.

The third option (inaction, wait for FDev) clearly is less desirable than the above two. Any advice would be from the 'wrong' source, and they are evidently not motivated to lift a finger to help.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Why are you expecting the game developer to tell people how to play a game that infamously drops the player in at the deep end?
Surely if the community sees a need they can rise to this challenge.

Take a look at the other forum sub-sections, like BGS for example. You'll see helpful guides & how-to's explaining mechanisms much more complex than how to survive, how to improve your DPS & hitpoints.

There is a clear antagonism for advice from the 'wrong' people in here, but the 'right' ones are unwilling or unable to do it. So it seems to me the thing that needs to change is one of those two; put in the effort to improve the place or be prepared to accept some one else's effort.

The third option (inaction, wait for FDev) clearly is less desirable than the above two. Any advice would be from the 'wrong' source, and they are evidently not motivated to lift a finger to help.

You will always get advise unless you are full of salt than you will be just told to git gud.

 

[Riverside]

You will always get advise unless you are full of salt than you will be just told to git gud.

So you won't always get good advice then? The common advice I see is to meet in-game. That doesn't help the lurker, too intimidated by all the 'git gud' comments to ask.

 

[ethelred]

I often post the usual high-waking advice, but it’s almost always surrounded by “play on möbius”, “block them” or just “git gud”.

It’s especially galling to see this in the PvP forum.