Yeah, sorry, my post was not complete. Of course, you'd have to run from 4 ships. But, if you're interdicted, you already know that by the time you exit supercruise. Of course, it depends on the 4 ships interdicting you and what kind of outfit you have on your Anaconda.
The SCB (Shield Cell Bank) Thread
- Thread starter OnePercent
- Start date
Yeah, sorry, my post was not complete. Of course, you'd have to run from 4 ships. But, if you're interdicted, you already know that by the time you exit supercruise. Of course, it depends on the 4 ships interdicting you and what kind of outfit you have on your Anaconda.
Yeah, outfit matters. and 4v1 is run. always.
Though, from the 4v4 battles I have been in, an anaconda needs a lot of cells. Most of the time it will be targeted by everyone,
so if it can't tank, its dead*.
Also, never underestimate Diamond back scouts joining the fray, they can really do a lot when there is confusion arround XD
*If shields are down, ramming and a few torps will down a conda in seconds.
Though, from the 4v4 battles I have been in, an anaconda needs a lot of cells. Most of the time it will be targeted by everyone,
so if it can't tank, its dead*.
Also, never underestimate Diamond back scouts joining the fray, they can really do a lot when there is confusion arround XD
*If shields are down, ramming and a few torps will down a conda in seconds.
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And of course if it is also the greatest threat to the opposing wing, they can be expected to focus on finishing it off first, while they are all undamaged and have full ammo loads. If the 'conda can't tank you might as well be flying a T9 - you'd last about as long and do about as much good for your wingmates.
This is the dilemma that FD face when considering another rebalance pass on SCBs. It's more noticeable at the extreme ends of the scale, the least and most "powerful" ships, which is why we're spending so much time on this thread talking about 'condas. Those massive things have to be able to tank the concentrated fire of a few smaller ships, if only for a limited period in order for the allied wing to reduce the odds some (since they aren't being shot at yet and have the leisure to return the favor of concentrated fire on the greatest opposing threat) or for the unsupported 'conda to escape. If FD were to take many of the suggestions on this thread - most of which are good ones when considered standalone - they'd run into the situation that the ships that need to to tank heavy fire, for the purposes of game balance, won't be able to any more. They'd have to do a lot more balancing in other areas. Right now, I'd agree with most folks on this thread that stacked SCBs are not a good solution to this issue, but they are the one we currently have. This is breaking stuff. If the changes made to fix that turn large powerful ships into glass cannons rather than keeping them as tanks, the cure will be worse than the disease. Sadly, almost all the options to "fix" SCBs or the elimination of them entirely will likely do that without some major rebalancing of other factors across the board.
So, from what I seem to understand, SCB were introduced as a balance to counteract wings? Are there any other situations where SCBs would be needed, besides the obvious use? Then, it seems that introducing wings did create quite an imbalance in combats, since from what you're saying, all members of a wing will concentrate their fire on the largest ship, possibly an Anaconda and the said Anaconda won't stand a chance to tank unless it heavily relies on SCBs. Maybe the largest shield generators and shield boosters could be increased more exponentially when you install higher grade components?
It wasn't quite like that, if I remember correctly.. SCBs were introduced pre-release. They were, at that point massively OP and that set off a huge firestorm on here. FD listened and rebalanced them some to their current state. At that point PVP combat was mostly 1v1 because wings wasn't out yet and the chances of getting your buddy into the same instance as the fight you were currently engaged in were pretty slim. Then wings was released, which settled around the "stacked SCBs" mechanic like a cowpat around a small rock, the combination stinks but that rock is staying exactly where it is unless you want to get your hands really dirty.
No, SCBs were implemented long before wings. The were intended to give trade ships a larger chance to flee. They failed at that as trade ships have to sacrifice to much profit power to use them while pirates and murderers can still have plenty of space for them (you don't need much cargo space to make pirate profit. In the end all it did is made so traders couldn't even fight back against pirates.
I expect if wings were implemented when SCBs weren't then the focus fire issue would have been fixed during the wing beta. This is one of my biggest issues with SCBs, they have overshadowed and warped many other balance issues.
I can see how an Anaconda would have problems tanking damage in a 1v4 situation. Perhaps SCBs can be made into more of a defensive module. As I have written a few pages back, one idea I saw somewhere was to leave SCBs almost as they are, but have them drain the WEP capacitor for an extended period of time. It would make ships sacrifice their offensive capabilities in return for being able to tank damage.
It might also give Shield Boosters a better place in the meta. Offensive Role (combat oriented vessles) -> Boosters , Defensive Role (Tanks, Traders, etc.) -> SCBs
It might also give Shield Boosters a better place in the meta. Offensive Role (combat oriented vessles) -> Boosters , Defensive Role (Tanks, Traders, etc.) -> SCBs
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Got it. Well, I still stand by my suggestion to buff up shield generators and shield boosters when you get the higher grades so that an Anaconda with 1 internal slot for a class 7 component and 3 internal slots for class 6 plus 8 utility slots, should be able to get a higher class shield generator. I think Frontier should increase the protection a shield generator provides in an exponential way compared to a lower class. That way smaller ships cannot get the level of protection an Anaconda has and even a few of them cannot easily take the Anaconda's shields out.
EDIT: as an example, a class 5 shield generator has an optimal mass rating of 405t while a class 6 has 540t. What I suggest is when you get to the higher classes of shield generators, their optimal maybe double over the lower class. e.g. class 6 would have a mass rating of 810t. Maybe not double but more than an increase of 105t between class 5 and class 6.
Sorry if I'm not clear enough, English is not my native language!
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No ship should be able to tank it's way to victory in a 1v4. You can't argue that without using an extreme version of the "cost = power" basis (as in you also expect on vulture to beat 4 vipers).
It's worth noting that even without SCBs a Anaconda should be able to best a pair of vultures unless that pair of vultures have very good, synchronized, pilots. Or at least the Annie has a decent chance. It still has more firepower than both vultures combined and a lot more health than either of them, so if it's good enough to keep it's guns on target it should kill one of them before taking to much damage itself.
Honestly many of these 4v4 arguments seem to be baseless. Any situation where the Annie gets focus fired will leave the attackers wide open. So sure the Annie might die but it's team is still unlikely to loose. Years of war gaming has proven to me that you always run the risk of loosing your Dreadnought, even when winning. If victory isn't worth loosing a ship for why are you even fighting?
Exactly, that's why I don't like SCB stacking because it allows to play god mode, those people that are against the NERF are the same who expect to beat a whole squadron by themselves. And then call it skills, but there are in the game after all and I'm going to keep using them to stay competitive, but something have to be done. Anyways, I cannot wait till the next ships come out and people will realize how ineffective they are against the Annie and Python.
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An anaconda should be frightened of a wing of combat ships, or heavy multi-role fighters like the Python. That should be a genuine pucker moment and either a stand and deliver, or get the heck out of dodge choice.
However an anaconda should have decent odds at defending itself from a single combat ship (where pilot competency is not massively stacked in combat favour) and be able to hold its own.
Otherwise you make a very expensive ship a non-starter. That people find a way to min/ max a ship isn't going to change. I think realistically it won't be until Horizons is out the door, and the first run of fixes happen, that SCBs might see some changes.
That there's already some talk around that from the devs, is promising. I would humbly ask they aren't just bluntly changed though, rather that the mechanic sees some work. The linear shield gen still strikes me as odd, given larger regulators should allow more energy to flow, and thus a faster charge rate.
I wonder how much stacking would occur, if the shield regen wasn't as slow? That people stack a ton of boosters and cells is actually more about what the shields are doing, than the components used to support them.
Given wings are now a reality, and instancing (sort of) works, a rethink of shield generators is probably now overdue.
However an anaconda should have decent odds at defending itself from a single combat ship (where pilot competency is not massively stacked in combat favour) and be able to hold its own.
Otherwise you make a very expensive ship a non-starter. That people find a way to min/ max a ship isn't going to change. I think realistically it won't be until Horizons is out the door, and the first run of fixes happen, that SCBs might see some changes.
That there's already some talk around that from the devs, is promising. I would humbly ask they aren't just bluntly changed though, rather that the mechanic sees some work. The linear shield gen still strikes me as odd, given larger regulators should allow more energy to flow, and thus a faster charge rate.
I wonder how much stacking would occur, if the shield regen wasn't as slow? That people stack a ton of boosters and cells is actually more about what the shields are doing, than the components used to support them.
Given wings are now a reality, and instancing (sort of) works, a rethink of shield generators is probably now overdue.
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SCBs need work. But what are you going to shoot at when anaconda drivers decide to use something else, because a single Vulture or FDL can wipe them out at any given movement, for the lulz.
It's ridiculous to argue that everyone expects an anaconda to automatically defeat an entire wing of combat ships; equally it's rediculous to suggest a combat pilot should be able to trivially destroy one. That isn't balance. Or even sane. That's just plain un-fun.
Extreme nerfs don't achieve anything. Apart from annoying the majority, to serve the few.
A rebalance of large shield generators and SCB mechanics would not go astray however. Something really does need to change. Don't confuse a lack of interest in extreme nerfs, to not actually wanting any review and improvement.
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Recently I saw a stream with PVP. Both players were in Anaconda's and were spamming shield cell banks. The fight went on for what seemed like an hour. It was one of the most boring things I've seen in Elite. It was just a bunch of jousting and at one point they just sat there shooting at each other.
And yet they'll say Elite isn't Dangerous enough, there's no risk, yada yada yada.
Fix SCBs and Elite will get Dangerous enough and a lot of people will be forced to put their money where their mouth is.
SCBs in their current form aren't much different than they were in Freelancer. Next they'll be adding in Hull Repair Nanobots to instantly repair your hull.
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Compared to my earlier rather radical idea, that I do think would be very nice, but do not think they would implement that. Just because it would be so different. They planned it so that all the ships are in the same bucket in the 1st place, so not seeing that they will be changing it. Anyway, something not as radical...
1. Nerf shield boosters, smaller percentages.
2. Cells can be used even if the shields are dropped.
3. I suppose the following idea, is at least partially here somewhere, but...
Ammo is used to recharge shield cells and cells can be used normally, as atm.
New ammo is recharging the shield cell like a battery, additionally needs pips to sys. The battery is boosting the recharge, but the battery is not enough alone. When shield cell is loaded -> Cell can be used to release its power to the shield normally.
Cell recharging is taking power from the sys pips, sharing those with the shield. Shields will be weaker while recharging the cell. You can use X amount of cells at the same time, but recharging those at the same time will affect to shield strength and recharge rate, in similar way as having less pips in sys.
Simplified example:
Lets agree that recharging a cell takes 25% from the system power.
Anaconda using, lets say A6, B5, B4 cells at the same time.
Anaconda is taking lot of hit and has 4 pips in sys.
Fires the 3 cells at the same time, and so recharges the shields.
After this...
Recharging 3 cells at the same time takes 75% from sys power -> 3 pips from 4
-> Shields have now only 1 pip while recharging the cells.
When the cells have been recharged, the shields will have all 4 pips again.
4. To compensate, so that big ships are still tanky, make the hull to be stronger. Shooting modules will be much more important, this will be interesting by-product.
To make stronger hull:
- Add Hull HP
- Decrease weapon penetrations
- Test how the combination of all the changes will affect, and then think more.
5. Increase the dmg penalty for energy vs hull and kinetic vs shield. This will make the ships stronger in general because the weapons will make less dmg, and as a by-product ship building will be even more interesting than what it is atm.
1. Nerf shield boosters, smaller percentages.
2. Cells can be used even if the shields are dropped.
3. I suppose the following idea, is at least partially here somewhere, but...
Ammo is used to recharge shield cells and cells can be used normally, as atm.
New ammo is recharging the shield cell like a battery, additionally needs pips to sys. The battery is boosting the recharge, but the battery is not enough alone. When shield cell is loaded -> Cell can be used to release its power to the shield normally.
Cell recharging is taking power from the sys pips, sharing those with the shield. Shields will be weaker while recharging the cell. You can use X amount of cells at the same time, but recharging those at the same time will affect to shield strength and recharge rate, in similar way as having less pips in sys.
Simplified example:
Lets agree that recharging a cell takes 25% from the system power.
Anaconda using, lets say A6, B5, B4 cells at the same time.
Anaconda is taking lot of hit and has 4 pips in sys.
Fires the 3 cells at the same time, and so recharges the shields.
After this...
Recharging 3 cells at the same time takes 75% from sys power -> 3 pips from 4
-> Shields have now only 1 pip while recharging the cells.
When the cells have been recharged, the shields will have all 4 pips again.
4. To compensate, so that big ships are still tanky, make the hull to be stronger. Shooting modules will be much more important, this will be interesting by-product.
To make stronger hull:
- Add Hull HP
- Decrease weapon penetrations
- Test how the combination of all the changes will affect, and then think more.
5. Increase the dmg penalty for energy vs hull and kinetic vs shield. This will make the ships stronger in general because the weapons will make less dmg, and as a by-product ship building will be even more interesting than what it is atm.
Honestly armor need's a viable SCB-like system, even if it's just a special AFMU.
Ohoh, I'd like to see big welder tending arms in large hard points so we can have a repair-conda. Not so keen on hull repairing itself, cockpits on the other hand... I swear they always blow out on me before I get to 50% hull.
Make it a Fedral ship only upgrade, they're the only ship's stupidly designed aroung armor tanking.
Naw, given such a tending arm would have to be multi-function to be worth a large point it will probably be equally important for reloading imperial plasma tanks. That and it would be way better than fuel transfer drones.