Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

One Wall of Text® to rule them all, and all that?

LOL, something like that.

Shame people feel they can buy a product on a whim and then blame those who make it, for it not suiting their needs.
Starting to think the "Wall of Information" should be required reading, with an exam at the end - before you can play the game.

I also think the forums should require an account key to be able to post.
But I'm mean like that

 

[DaveB]

That way of the imbalance "correcting itself" used to be known as the game going bust. Not exactly what would happen to ED due to the modes and mode switching, of course — players here can flee a dying mode and seek refuge on Solo or Group —, but still that brand of self-correcting isn't usually something you want the game to go through.

If by "the game going bust" you mean "(some group of players) leave" then that implies a probably mistaken assumption that the particular group of players you are thinking of are essential to the continued life of the game. If ED was designed to cater to a single particular play style, alienating those that played in that way would indeed be a disaster for the game. ED isn't. It's designed to accommodate multiple play styles all in the same universe. A set of players grouped by their style of play is pretty much guaranteed to be a minority of the ED community. If they leave - or choose to play exclusively in a mode that allows the rest of us no interaction with them - then of course the rest of us will be sorry to see them go but the game won't "go bust" any time soon and the rest of us will continue to play the way we want anyway.

 

[Mouse]

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Off topic, but Star Wars Galaxies was already hemorrhaging players at an alarming rate before the NGE. Part of it was executive meddling, the whole holocron fiasco caused by the publisher wanting more Jedi players for marketing purposes left the game in a bad shape (that, and the devs using a dumb way of unlocking the Jedi, one that forced most people to play in a way they disliked). If nothing was done, it would have likely closed even earlier than it finally did.

Not saying that the NGE was exactly good; it certainly could have been done far better. But it was neither the kind of unmitigated disaster people like to paint it as nor the only thing that tanked SWG.

---

I will agree, I remember when the first Jedi unlocked on Intrepid (don't think the first ingame just on my server) , it actually caused a rush of new character creations. I wonder if the reaction to the jedi finally being ingame caused Sony to think that hey making jedi accessible will boost #'s. But the changes and the holocron chase to Jedi did tick a lot of players off especially the cantina fiascos of afking and macroing entertainers classes.

I will disagree on likely to have closed even earlier than it finally did only because Jump to Lightspeed and Trials (Which I loved) of Obi-wan had good sales from what I heard. What really screwed them was trying to screw over their customers. Trial of Obi-wan was marketed towards the 32 class structure and had bonuses for a few of them (like Creature Handlers). When news of the NGE was leaked right after TOW went live and 2 weeks before they were planning on implementing it, without telling the player base, there was a huge backlash on the forums because it would negate all of TOW marketing except the planet and questline. This resulting in Sony ended up after pressure offering a refund for all those who bought TOW which was a lot of people, myself included. And When NGE went Live many people commented on the forums that on many servers thriving cities were empty and the major cities as well. I know on Intrepid I hung on for a while and finally left because I couldn't find anyone to play with and all the armor and weapon vendors I used had left. Came back a couple years later and some were playing again but the cities (expect for the macro spammed cantinas) were nowhere as full as they used to be, even when they merged servers.

So that is why I say NGE killed SWG, but I agree that the Push for Jedi and the village and all that was probably the start of it. ^,^ Heck I have friends who still will not touch a game if Sony has a hand in it because of how they screwed everyone over in SWG.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

LOL, something like that.

Shame people feel they can buy a product on a whim and then blame those who make it, for it not suiting their needs.
Starting to think the "Wall of Information" should be required reading, with an exam at the end - before you can play the game.

I also think the forums should require an account key to be able to post.
But I'm mean like that

I thought that was required.. am used to Official forums needing that ^,^.

 

[DarkWalker]

If by "the game going bust" you mean "(some group of players) leave" then that implies a probably mistaken assumption that the particular group of players you are thinking of are essential to the continued life of the game. If ED was designed to cater to a single particular play style, alienating those that played in that way would indeed be a disaster for the game. ED isn't. It's designed to accommodate multiple play styles all in the same universe. A set of players grouped by their style of play is pretty much guaranteed to be a minority of the ED community. If they leave - or choose to play exclusively in a mode that allows the rest of us no interaction with them - then of course the rest of us will be sorry to see them go but the game won't "go bust" any time soon and the rest of us will continue to play the way we want anyway.

I mean go out of business due to lack of players.

What you described is more or less the kind of death spiral that can happen in large multiplayer games that allow the players to freely hunt each other: when there are too many "hunters", the "prey" becomes scarce, making each remaining "prey" suffer even more attacks, driving even more of them away, until only the "hunters" are left, when they too leave leaving a dead game that typically isn't able to recover before having to close down out of lack of revenue.

It's very rare in MMOs — both because the devs wised up to it, interrupting the spiral before it becomes irreversible, and because most games don't allow in the first place the kind of player "hunting" needed for it to happen — but it used to be common among MUDs.

 

[DaveB]

I mean go out of business due to lack of players.

What you described is more or less the kind of death spiral that can happen in large multiplayer games that allow the players to freely hunt each other: when there are too many "hunters", the "prey" becomes scarce, making each remaining "prey" suffer even more attacks, driving even more of them away, until only the "hunters" are left, when they too leave leaving a dead game that typically isn't able to recover before having to close down out of lack of revenue.

It's very rare in MMOs — both because the devs wised up to it, interrupting the spiral before it becomes irreversible, and because most games don't allow in the first place the kind of player "hunting" needed for it to happen — but it used to be common among MUDs.

Fair enough. And yes, I recall that very phenomenon in MUDs. However, as you pointed out, the devs did wise up to it and have remained wise in FDs case. Let's look at that kind of spiral starting in ED. The players that are the "wolves" or "hunters" are hardcore PvPers, playing in open and to them the highest goal is combat against another player. I can respect that, I even enjoy participating in it from time to time. I can easily see why a skilled opposing player is a much more challenging and rewarding target than an AI. Like every online community there are some within that population who DONT seek the "challenging and rewarding" targets but instead prey on ships that have no chance against them. They are not the kind of PvPer you are or I am but they do exist. Suppose they do start driving so many players into private groups or solo, or even out of the game altogether? The ones driven into private groups or solo are still playing and presumably enjoying it. The ones driven out of the game might come back if the in-game experience improved for them. So ED open mode gradually becomes populated by nothing but hunters, it may take months or years but eventually it gets there. You won't mind, nor will I. We'll still both go there when we're ok with the chance of getting jumped and pulled into a firefight and we'll probably enjoy it if/when it happens. The other sub-population, the ones that deliberately seek out the weakest ships or that go noob-ganking in Eravate, not so much. Their prey will be gone and they'll either learn to play a different way or (more likely) ragequit. Either way, the game ends up in a better state without them playing that way.

Now, if ED was a game that depended on thriving PvP to survive, this would be a death-spiral. It would be like nerfing first-person PvP in Battlefield. But it doesn't. PvP in ED is just one of myriads of play styles and if this particular sub-population of the PvP community no longer finds it satisfying, the galaxy won't care and won't miss them. ED won't die as a result.

 

[DarkWalker]

Fair enough. And yes, I recall that very phenomenon in MUDs. However, as you pointed out, the devs did wise up to it and have remained wise in FDs case.

ED as a whole is more or less immune to it due to the modes, and mode switching, so in a way Frontier nipped that possibility in the bud.

The Open mode, though, might not be immune to it. And, while that effect happening in a single mode would be unlikely to crater the game, which in turn would allow the affected game mode the time it needs to recover, the effect would still not be pleasant for the players that prefer the affected mode and would cause Frontier to lose revenue (and ED to likely lose development budget).

The ones driven out of the game might come back if the in-game experience improved for them.

Historically, players driven out of a game due to other players tend to never give it a second chance. UO, for example, saw only about 5% of the players that were driven out due to PvP even give the game a new try after Trammel was added — and, given that the game's pre-Trammel-era churn rate was about 70% of the players leaving within two months, there were a huge amount of players to try and get back.

So, it's in the dev's best interest to avoid unnecessarily driving players away. Regaining them tends to be very hard and ineffective. If Frontier detects that players are leaving due to what happens in Open, it's in their best interest to act sooner rather than later.

Now, if ED was a game that depended on thriving PvP to survive, this would be a death-spiral. It would be like nerfing first-person PvP in Battlefield. But it doesn't. PvP in ED is just one of myriads of play styles and if this particular sub-population of the PvP community no longer finds it satisfying, the galaxy won't care and won't miss them. ED won't die as a result.

The classic death spiral isn't about making PvP unfeasible in a PvP game; it's more or less the opposite, actually, making PvE not exactly enjoyable in a game where PvP is allowed but not the focus.

It's why, say, Planetside doesn't need to worry about it. Or even EVE; while PvE is possible in that game, the focus — as reinforced in about every piece of advertisement CCP does — is on PvP, which limits its potential player base but somewhat insulates it against the PK- and griefing-caused death spiral.

 

[DaveB]

<snip>

I think we agree on pretty much all points except for approaching them from slightly different directions

 

[Lestenio]

Just to give you my personal reasons for not wanting PVP. I work with direct physical confrontation on a fairly regular basis, dealing with some of the worst that society can throw at each other. Conflict resolution for me is a very real thing, so when I get home from a long shift, the last thing I want to deal with is the internet warriors. I want to kick back and relax, I do that with muddling along in Solo and occasionally groups. My pace, maybe 10-12 hours per week, still getting my behind handed to me in a HazRes in my trusty little Vulture (on occasions to be fair, when I take on a wing with far too much fire power).

You shouldn't need to justify how you play the game. The money you spent entitles you to enjoy the the game however you want

Sounds like a tough job.

 

[DaveB]

...Sounds like a tough job.

To be honest, sounds like he's either an EMT or a cop. Both cope with that on a regular basis and it's quite understandable that they wouldn't want to deal with it in their games.

 

[Lestenio]

To be honest, sounds like he's either an EMT or a cop. Both cope with that on a regular basis and it's quite understandable that they wouldn't want to deal with it in their games.

Funny I thought prison guard for some reason. Yours is a better guess.

 

[Belzmort]

You shouldn't need to justify how you play the game. The money you spent entitles you to enjoy the the game however you want

I wasn't trying to justify anything, more give a different perspective. Just getting some of the open advocates to understand and accept a different way to play the game is half the battle, then hopefully comes a bit of respect...maybe...

Sounds like a tough job.

It is, but it has its fun moments.

 

[DaveB]

Funny I thought prison guard for some reason. Yours is a better guess.

I had a couple of cops in my class when I used to teach martial arts. Their jobs kinda ate at them and the way he posted just sounded the same way they used to talk about it when we were discussing the "mentality of conflict" as part of the training.

 

[Belzmort]

To be honest, sounds like he's either an EMT or a cop. Both cope with that on a regular basis and it's quite understandable that they wouldn't want to deal with it in their games.

Ding Ding we have a winner. Correct, it is one of those two. Prison Guard is something I just couldn't do. Anyway back on topic before Yaffle gets his feathers ruffled about us going off-topic again.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

So have we come to the conclusion to close Open, create Open PVE and resume PVP activities in there?

 

[DaveB]

...Anyway back on topic before Yaffle gets his feathers ruffled...

I wouldn't call it off-topic at all. It's a perfectly valid real-life reason for wanting to be able to enjoy the full spectrum of ED gameplay without wanting to encounter PvP. As such it is perfectly relevant to this thread where folks from every side of the debate ascribe other motivations to those that take opposing positions. Might just remind us that those broad-brush generalizations are pretty much universally wrong.

 

[Commander Debic]

If by "the game going bust" you mean "(some group of players) leave" then that implies a probably mistaken assumption that the particular group of players you are thinking of are essential to the continued life of the game. If ED was designed to cater to a single particular play style, alienating those that played in that way would indeed be a disaster for the game. ED isn't. It's designed to accommodate multiple play styles all in the same universe. A set of players grouped by their style of play is pretty much guaranteed to be a minority of the ED community. If they leave - or choose to play exclusively in a mode that allows the rest of us no interaction with them - then of course the rest of us will be sorry to see them go but the game won't "go bust" any time soon and the rest of us will continue to play the way we want anyway.

And of course A set of players grouped by their style of play is pretty much guaranteed to be a minority of the ED community could easily be players in the open group as opposed to those in the Mobius group for instance. Just saying like.

 

[Belzmort]

I wouldn't call it off-topic at all. It's a perfectly valid real-life reason for wanting to be able to enjoy the full spectrum of ED gameplay without wanting to encounter PvP. As such it is perfectly relevant to this thread where folks from every side of the debate ascribe other motivations to those that take opposing positions. Might just remind us that those broad-brush generalizations are pretty much universally wrong.

It was said very tongue in cheek to be fair. Just finished another stellar shift at work, so a little bit of light-hearted posting before the Zzzzz monster takes me once again. I would rep you, but I can't, have some virtual rep.

So have we come to the conclusion to close Open, create Open PVE and resume PVP activities in there?

As long as you can only fire party balloons at other players.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

As long as you can only fire party balloons at other players.

Isn't it what we're already doing? They just take it too seriously.

 

[Mouse]

So have we come to the conclusion to close Open, create Open PVE and resume PVP activities in there?

If I may ask, what was the purpose of this post?

 

[DaveB]

And of course A set of players grouped by their style of play is pretty much guaranteed to be a minority of the ED community could easily be players in the open group as opposed to those in the Mobius group for instance. Just saying like.

Absolutely. FWIW you seem to be addressing me as if I'm one of those exclusive open players... I'm not. I choose my play mode based on my mood when I fire up the game. I'm a mobius group member, along with three other private groups. I spend time in solo, group and open, it varies but in any given snapshot of my play you'll see no more than half my time spent in one over the other two.