LOL! That never stopped me before! ;P
- Status
LOL! That never stopped me before! ;P
To a great extent I agree with you. However, I'll point out one thing that jumped out at me. There's a hardcore element to the PvE players too. They are digging as deeply into the mechanics and meta as the best PvP players but they are digging into mechanics that are important to their play style, just as the PvP folks are, so naturally they are probing very different areas of the game. There's some overlap but to a large extent the deep analysis by the best players in each group covers quite divergent areas. For a shining example, one need only look at the depth of analysis of the BGS and faction mechanics required for the project that spawned your own sig
That's all PvE meta, not PvP.This does come back to the original rhetorical question. How come the folks doing their meta-analysis for PvP purposes are so strident when those doing the same meta-analysis for PvE purposes seem to be much less confrontational when faced with counter-arguments? Sure both are a relatively tiny minority of the player-base but only one seems to be of the opinion that "It MUST be fixed our way" and yells that opinion so violently. This is also a semi-rhetorical question, but as you said that's never stopped you before and if you do answer it your opinion as always will be worth reading .
What, the lips?
(Highest concentration of nerve endings per square inch in the human body. The usual, NSFW answer is more myth than truth.)
Different kinds of people act in different ways.
Though yep, the majority tends to be silent. Not only in games, but in about everything; if you are handling consumer complaints, for example, it's often a safe bet that, for everyone that complains, there are five to ten persons with the same complaint that just didn't bother complaining. That is a huge issue when you need to know what your customers think, as the silent majority is particularly hard to gage, often going as far as leaving without telling the company why.
It's why I love modding and difficulty settings in games. I believe I'm at the top 10%, rather than the top 3%, but still most popular games out there are too much on the easy/simple side for me. I'm aware that anything custom-tailored for my tastes will have a small following and a small budget, so I welcome more generic games with options I can use to tailor it to my tastes.
(Also, different players have a taste for different kinds of challenge. I love a single-player skill challenge; I won't even bother with social challenges, though, like trying to organize a group, because I simply find it to not be enjoyable.)
You mean, why players that like confronting others in game are more confrontational when exposing their ideas than players that prefer to avoid confronting others in game?
To a great extent I agree with you. However, I'll point out one thing that jumped out at me. There's a hardcore element to the PvE players too. They are digging as deeply into the mechanics and meta as the best PvP players but they are digging into mechanics that are important to their play style, just as the PvP folks are, so naturally they are probing very different areas of the game. There's some overlap but to a large extent the deep analysis by the best players in each group covers quite divergent areas. For a shining example, one need only look at the depth of analysis of the BGS and faction mechanics required for the project that spawned your own sig
This does come back to the original rhetorical question. How come the folks doing their meta-analysis for PvP purposes are so strident when those doing the same meta-analysis for PvE purposes seem to be much less confrontational when faced with counter-arguments? Sure both are a relatively tiny minority of the player-base but only one seems to be of the opinion that "It MUST be fixed our way" and yells that opinion so violently. This is also a semi-rhetorical question, but as you said that's never stopped you before and if you do answer it your opinion as always will be worth reading .
I agree, that PVE players do delve into games to some degree, but the PVP players HAVE to remain current on how things work. PVP is evolutionary in it's scope. When someone finds a new 'trick' in PVP, it does not follow it works well for PVE. PVE players might look at the idea and adopt it...but, for the most part, unless the PVP meta is more effective at taking down PVE adversaries (which they generally aren't) the ideas are ignored by the PVE side of the game...almost is good enough. If the idea is even halfway good in PVP you better understand it, or you play for naught.
The reason that the PVP players yell louder is because changes that affect the enjoyment of their play style can ruin the game for them, particularly if the discovery results in a bland copy pasta meta. The other reason they yell the loudest is that PVE players LOVE to have OP metas, so they can min/max their rewards better. A bad balance change, as I said, for PVP means everyone is fighting with the same skills and there is no 'fun'.
I will have to disagree with you mainly because ever since I first started to play games that you could do against others I found that those that enjoy the OP metas are not PVErs in general but those who enjoy PVP, and I saw this a LOT in UO, EQ, and WoW. Someone will find a way to use a skill, usually not how it was intended to be used in a game, then completely dominate others until others learn it. At which point everyone in PVP is "doing it" to win and the developers come down with a nerf which sends the PVP crowd looking for a new OP to win with and PVErs screaming because suddenly skills they didn't misuse are now severely nerfed/hampered through no cause of their own. I'm not saying that there are never PVErs that would misuse skills, but they are few and far between when looking at the #'s vs the PVP crowd.
[video=youtube;trvwVoLtqVI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trvwVoLtqVI[/video]
PLEASE BEFORE YOU MAKE AN ASSUMPTION AND JUMP TO CONCLUSION ABOUT WHAT I AM ABOUT TO WRITE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS FROM MY ORIGINAL POSTING.....
NOW THAT YOU HAVE READ THAT PLEASE CONTINUE...
It's been a while since I have voiced my opinions, and therefore I'm guessing you haven't read that far back, but several times the explanation has been made clear why there should be at least some degree of separation for solo and group compared to open. It is simply because if there is never any seperation of how much they can effect the Open Play world, then you can not meaningfully expect that the people playing in Open will have a fair chance to accomplish anything without others taking advantage that in Solo and Group play you are basically hiding from everyone else. In all honesty this unfairness has cause 95% percent of the people I play with to remove themselves from Powerplay altogether, because we were tired or grinding our es off to try and make a change in our area, just to have another faction come over in Solo and Group mode and undo everything we had accomplished, and there was nothing we could do about it because they were hiding. I really enjoy the people I play with and I enjoy the combat of this game, but the multiplayer/open experience is truly broken right now. There are alot of us that would like to see Guilds/Wings/Fleets or whatever you want to call it added into the game, and on top of that we would like to see those groups have the ability to claim a station/planet/area and use it as there base of operations, and I would really like to see some sort of mechanic where you could have a little bit of interaction where groups could support or hinder each others assets in the game, but you would not be able to do all this with the current state of the Open vs Group vs Solo situation, because anyone who is afraid or has ever been killed by another CMDR in the game and is squeamish about their rebuy costs will always run and hide in Solo or Group and become untouchable. They need to either severely nerf the interaction cause from the Solo or Group player on the Open world, or simply move them to their own server so thay can all go hide with each other. This would not be a problem if the game had been released as designed with Solo and Group modes being standalone on your own machine, but since Frontier changed their mind and decided to make it where all these people can hide the way they do, they have effectively given themselves an excuse why most of the PvP/Open world things people are asking for would not be viable. How can you defend an area if you never see the people undermining you because they are hiding. The only time you notice the change is when the server updates and 90% of the time it is too late. So with all that being said, I would ask that they implement some system that nerfs the involvement of Solo and Group players on the Open players, or just move them to their own server and seperate your earnings/ships when it come to the different play styles. It is not fair that Solo and Group players earn the same amount of money, rep, and powerplay merits while they hide. They need to either nerf the Solo and Group money/rep/powerplay merits or they need to give a bonus to the Open money/rep/powerplay merits. If you are going to hide, then it should take you longer to earn the same amount as someone playing in Open. This is my opinion and it will stand as my opinion. You will not change my mind, but I hope that other like minded individuals will stand up and make their voices heard.
I have two words for you. Obsession and paragraphs.
So, you're not open to reason and don't care about the opinion of unlike minded individuals.
Duly noted. But the important thing to remember is: paragraphs.
Can't read this in one bit without my eyes crossing. I can, however, select bits to read that I like: Reading top left to bottom right, on a meandering diagonal, I get:
"It's been a while ... simply without others ... I play .... Powerplay ... Killed ... Solo ... Change ... Open players ... hide ... Opinion ... mind ... voices heard".
Intriguing. Almost Lovecraftishly so.
S
So you want to punish solo and (to a lesser extent) groups, while buffing open - for no reason at all.
Nope, not buying your "reasoning".
First off maybe you should go back yourself and REREAD the first POST of this thread. Since you apparently have not and have laced your tirad with multiple insults. Your insults I did not touch at all.. except to remove them from the qoute I replied too.. but you were reported.. because come on.. that many times..
Since I discussed things with you when you originally posted long ago then I guess you can't remember that far back either... and yet even with your long winded and insulting post. You have yet to STILL give a even remotely valid reasoning for either Open only or a second BGS.
As for the separation.. it already exists the only thing affected is the BGS. Everyone in open has just as fair a chance to affect things as as those in SOlo and Group.. there is no conspiracy in Solo or Group to counter things done in Open, in all three modes people are for and against so any Non-PVP action taken in Open can be countered or supported in the other modes and vice versa.
If you left PP it was not because of "unfairness" it was because you were unwilling to engage in the true nature of PP which is PVE content not PVP.. for every power people in all three modes worked for or against, but only those who were willing to take the proper actions achieved things, those that refused to play PP the way PP is played and instead claimed that it should be PVP only.. got left behind.. the fault is your own. Also many of the "actions" you felt were unfair because you could not see and stop them.. were done by others in Open just like yourself. You claim those that came in and "undid" all your actions were in solo and or group, yet have no proof as people in all three modes would be unseen by you unless matchmaker paired them with you and your friends. So instead you speculate and blame Solo and Group.
Wings are in the game, and you can "claim" a station in that if you make a request you can have a minor faction created for a station, what you cannot do though is claim it to the point where only you and your "friends" are the only ones who can use it. Open only will not make that possible either, but by requesting a minor faction you can engage in one thing you wish " I would really like to see some sort of mechanic where you could have a little bit of interaction where groups could support or hinder each others assets in the game"
FD didn't "decided to add solo and group" they were part of the game from the Kickstarter.. or have you not read that far back?
You defend in the same way that others undermine, with the PVE mechanics that were put in place for that purpose, no visual sighting of the enemy is required.. that is a PVP view.
And it is easier for people to earn money/rep/powerplay merits in Open than it is in Solo by a long shot, so why should they buff the easy way to do it and make it harder for the harder way to do it.. And that would unbalance the game and make Open the go to Mode which is against the wishes of Fdev.
So.. please again.. can you give a VALID reason for Open Only/2nd BGS or will you continue to post already discredited reasons and claim validity where there is none.
Frontier could separate open and non-open. People could tweak their routers and play in open, but never meet anyone.
Unless you can suggest a technical work around to this issue, Frontier will not make this change, because it would have no effect.
This isn't a game where you can lay claim to an area or control how others play. That's why I play it.
Cheers, Phos.
I do not disagree with you on this. That's how meta's are created. Pretty much the point of PVP. Intention does not come into the equation...as a matter of fact, in more modern games, a lot of intentions of the devs are hidden between roles/classes within games, waiting for the meta players to find the puzzle pieces. I play PVE...a lot more than PVP...I appreciate the contributions of PVP...but I would rather find the best way to grind out what I want than 'play within players intentions' and founder. The devs in games are clear of what are exploits and I steer clear of those. However, I do know that when it comes to tactics, understanding, and pure gameplay, PVP players will kill me over and over again.
I understand what I am saying is perjorative in nature, for many on either side of the aisle, but the relationship is still valid. And we can agree to disagree.
Last edited:
We agree to disagree ^,^
ANd PVPers would kill me too but for different reasons. Partly because my reaction times are not good, but neither will I engage and would high wake.. or log if I couldn't , though if they are overwhelming enough they may destroy me before I managed to react.
they want to be a part of the OPEN world by taking part in powerplay and everything else. Why should you get to earn the same amount in everyhting on a game without accepting the risk that comes with OPEN mode, it is not fair, and if you think it is, you do so because it benefts yourself and those with your like mind. Like I said before I will always believe that using SOLO and Group mode to hide while effecting change in a PvP based OPEN environment is cowardly and it is hiding. Whether you like it or not it is the truth. If you are insulted by that, then I apologize, but apparently the truth hurts. As far as solutions,
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Oh and back to your comment about SOLO ad GROUP being part of the game form the beginning, WRONG... SOLO and GROUP were supposed to Offline and LAN/Online LAN versions of the game seperat fromt he OPEN world. they changed it at the last minute and decided to instance the servers so everyone played together.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Oh and back to your comment about SOLO ad GROUP being part of the game form the beginning, WRONG... SOLO and GROUP were supposed to Offline and LAN/Online LAN versions of the game seperat fromt he OPEN world. they changed it at the last minute and decided to instance the servers so everyone played together.
Last edited by a moderator:
And you know that they are "hiding" in Solo and Groups, as opposed to playing at a different time, being from far enough apart in the real world that they are never matched with you, or even merely playing in a different platform (XBox if you play on PC, and vice versa), because?
In all those cases you will not see those players. Even if everyone was playing in Open, chances are good you would never see 80%+ of the players out there. It's how the game was designed and built, players being able to hold space and keep others away was never a part of the plan.
If that claim mechanic includes somehow excluding or restricting other "unauthorized" players operating in the same space, then I sincerely hope you never get your wish. Not in ED, at least. That is not the game that was promised, and it would ruin the game for many people that don't want to take part in this kind of conflict.
Nope. You won't see me because I consider players that want to force conflict upon others to be harmful to my enjoyment of the game, and thus I won't ever allow such players to be playing with me. Thankfully Frontier made clear from the start that I would never have to play this game with anyone I didn't want.
Actually, that was never the plan. From the first time ED was presented, before offline was even suggested, it included the ability for players to choose who they play with on a session by session basis (AKA with a single save). The following, for example, was added to the game's Kickstart page in November 14, 2012, less than a week after the game proposal was formally presented, and weeks before offline was added as an option:
"We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will, though it will be possible to be banned from groups due to antisocial behaviour, and you will only meet others in that group."
Group play, in particular, was never associated with offline play. Offline was supposed to be single player only.
The game was never supposed to be about PvP. Meeting other players was supposed to be rare, and fighting them even rarer.
Which, I might add, is exactly what many, likely even most, of the early players wanted. A game where we could get lost in space, doing our own things.
How can you defend an area if you never see the people undermining you because they are hiding. The only time you notice the change is when the server updates and 90% of the time it is too late. So with all that being said, I would ask that they implement some system that nerfs the involvement of Solo and Group players on the Open players, or just move them to their own server and seperate your earnings/ships when it come to the different play styles. It is not fair that Solo and Group players earn the same amount of money, rep, and powerplay merits while they hide. They need to either nerf the Solo and Group money/rep/powerplay merits or they need to give a bonus to the Open money/rep/powerplay merits. If you are going to hide, then it should take you longer to earn the same amount as someone playing in Open. This is my opinion and it will stand as my opinion. You will not change my mind, but I hope that other like minded individuals will stand up and make their voices heard.[/QUOTE]
Can you provide a developer quote stating this? After all, offline was first offered December 11, 2012, over a month after the Kickstart was started in November 9, 2012. And both single player and group modes were already described, and promised, from the very start, even before offline was offered.
On the other hand, there are many early quotes, from before offline was offered, telling about how players would be able to simply choose to never meet anyone else while playing online. The delay in offering an offline option was, itself, because the devs wanted every single player, including those that prefer to play alone, to still influence the same galaxy.
How exactly were FD going to offer GROUP mode as an offline mode? I'm curious how that would work.
And I'm sorry but you are so wrong it is laughable.. there are way more than two reasons why people play other than Open.. but since "your" style of play apparently is the only way people play in your opinion.. I guess you can only see things your way or no way.
and your "additional Content" is not even close to accurate..
I know Jockey has posted before about it. Maybe though in your infinite wisdom over everyone else you can point out where Solo and Group were not part of the game originally, but as you claim separate from the open world. Personally I believe you are mistaking the Offline mode that was added later then dropped for Solo and Group.
I will say you are right about one thing it is not fair that Open has far less risk than Solo yet the Open only players keep trying to buff open to make it even more unbalanced. You also fail to realize that Elite Dangerous is a PVE game with PVP added.. the only pure PVP mode is CQC.
and just so you know.. I cannot edit you posts, I can only do so to the quoted part when I reply and yes I redacted all the insults that are not permitted because I don't feel like taking a vacation because you want to be rude. If your original post was edited it was because a MOD did it.. which I am not one.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello,
For those who have a problem with Online Solo = Open = Group, do what others before you have done:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...und-policy-following-no-offline-mode-backlash
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789
Plenty of precedence and you can take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one with these issues.
Have fun, fly safe. o7
For those who have a problem with Online Solo = Open = Group, do what others before you have done:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...und-policy-following-no-offline-mode-backlash
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789
Plenty of precedence and you can take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one with these issues.
Have fun, fly safe. o7
I'm a Solo player. There I've said it - out of the closet. I'm playing in the ignorance that I'm having a good time. I have traded, explored and been in combat (I have never PvP just stupid NPC so to Open no combat). To some (hopefully not all) Open players I have wasted my money, my pc should be confiscated, forced into open so I can be cannon fodder and basically play in the fashion that suits their needs and expectations. I have never crossed over to Open to take advantage of any situation. I could care less about Open but if you play it I hope you are having a good time. But some facts and/or observations from a Solo player representing just me:
Solo = Single Player Group = Modified Multiplayer Open = Multiplayer
1. If I wanted the multiplayer thing I would have stuck with WOW, Eve, COD.....................etc. People with nothing but time on their hands excel (I have a job/life).
2. I have played for over a year (Beta Backer) have a kitted Cobra 3 and 155 mil in credits. I see people in the forums who say they hit the restart button and have billions in a week. WOW
3. I mostly don't complain, I adapt (The times I did was about interdiction and the Cobra 4(both nerfed nuf said). I hear players talk about real life but they want this nerfed this improved...etc.
4. I don't Powerplay, Wings, the race thing, CG or SRV (may try SRV) in Horizon's. Most of all these things are made for Open. Most of all improvements and/or additions are made for Open.
5. I really don't believe the forum represents the Elite community as a whole. Responses from polls are usually less than a couple thousand. I also believe FD knows this.
6. I'm tired of Open players ideas that would force Solo/Group players into Open. Here is an idea Open, every time Solo is select send a virus down that will...never mind.
7. I guess Open players paid more for their game because they some act like it. Name a feature added that benefits only Solo, I can name a few for Open.
8. I have not one credit that I have gotten from an exploit (as far as I know). Not because I'm honest but to stupid to find and exploit one.
9. I'm happy with what I got (would be happier with a un-nerfed Cobra 4). I just try different things and travel to different places. I love this game.
10. If the servers were to crash forever I would be sad but satisfied I got my monies worth.
11. Have I said anything about the Cobra 4. Well I kitted one and it sucks. Slow turn, slow speed....I could go on but in Solo it isn't to bad (NPC are stupid and slow too) also 100% on interdicting.
12. A lot of Open players are serious, I mean this is their life type thing. Not judging just observing.
13. There is no way to make everything equal and fair in every situation. Not in life and not in this game.
14. Most of the comments I see from Solo players are to defend themselves from Open players. (You can burn me on this one).
15. Can't we just all get along?
16. Can't wait for the aliens. Gotta nerf them too.
17. In Open Cmd A could be sitting at a blockade and see no one but Cmd B in another instance could run it. Cmd B could keep logging in/out to achieve this.
18. It would absolutely in no way bother me if Solo and Group/Open we separated (twain shall never meet). Just like when we have a beta to test, you would have Cmd Solo/Cmd Open.
19. Did you catch the Cmd Solo in 18?
20. It is a game. I love this game. Thank you FD for bringing Elite back to me. It started for me back in 84. I have not been disappointed (did I mention the Cobra 4)
These are some of my observations and opinions and they should be yours.
Solo = Single Player Group = Modified Multiplayer Open = Multiplayer
1. If I wanted the multiplayer thing I would have stuck with WOW, Eve, COD.....................etc. People with nothing but time on their hands excel (I have a job/life).
2. I have played for over a year (Beta Backer) have a kitted Cobra 3 and 155 mil in credits. I see people in the forums who say they hit the restart button and have billions in a week. WOW
3. I mostly don't complain, I adapt (The times I did was about interdiction and the Cobra 4(both nerfed nuf said). I hear players talk about real life but they want this nerfed this improved...etc.
4. I don't Powerplay, Wings, the race thing, CG or SRV (may try SRV) in Horizon's. Most of all these things are made for Open. Most of all improvements and/or additions are made for Open.
5. I really don't believe the forum represents the Elite community as a whole. Responses from polls are usually less than a couple thousand. I also believe FD knows this.
6. I'm tired of Open players ideas that would force Solo/Group players into Open. Here is an idea Open, every time Solo is select send a virus down that will...never mind.
7. I guess Open players paid more for their game because they some act like it. Name a feature added that benefits only Solo, I can name a few for Open.
8. I have not one credit that I have gotten from an exploit (as far as I know). Not because I'm honest but to stupid to find and exploit one.
9. I'm happy with what I got (would be happier with a un-nerfed Cobra 4). I just try different things and travel to different places. I love this game.
10. If the servers were to crash forever I would be sad but satisfied I got my monies worth.
11. Have I said anything about the Cobra 4. Well I kitted one and it sucks. Slow turn, slow speed....I could go on but in Solo it isn't to bad (NPC are stupid and slow too) also 100% on interdicting.
12. A lot of Open players are serious, I mean this is their life type thing. Not judging just observing.
13. There is no way to make everything equal and fair in every situation. Not in life and not in this game.
14. Most of the comments I see from Solo players are to defend themselves from Open players. (You can burn me on this one).
15. Can't we just all get along?
16. Can't wait for the aliens. Gotta nerf them too.
17. In Open Cmd A could be sitting at a blockade and see no one but Cmd B in another instance could run it. Cmd B could keep logging in/out to achieve this.
18. It would absolutely in no way bother me if Solo and Group/Open we separated (twain shall never meet). Just like when we have a beta to test, you would have Cmd Solo/Cmd Open.
19. Did you catch the Cmd Solo in 18?
20. It is a game. I love this game. Thank you FD for bringing Elite back to me. It started for me back in 84. I have not been disappointed (did I mention the Cobra 4)
These are some of my observations and opinions and they should be yours.
- Status