Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[DarkWalker]

I may be a tad cynical, but the reason for the reluctance is because they themselves don't want to be the target.. it isn't about PVP but Dominating.. there are pvpers in the game, but many of the most vocal are not true pvpers as they don't want the vs part.. they don't play to have a fair fight, they play to overwhelm players.. they wax eloquently about "risks" and how hard Open is and why it needs x,y, and z over Solo and group, yet they attack vastly weaker opponents and many times in groups vs a single victim... for them there is no risk, no real danger of them losing anything. Put them in a private group with only PVPers and suddenly they have risk... they are no longer an Apex predator.. and that they cannot stand.

It was more or less the conclusion the UO devs reached when Trammel was introduced. Suddenly the "wolves" were playing only among themselves, while most of the "sheep" were safely stowed away, so most of those "hardcore" PvPers started to leave in droves due to the lack of soft targets.

Not all PvPers left, mind; I've seen a few that consider the game just after Trammel was introduced as the best for PvP, as in the PvP world of Felucca you would find only players that were itching for some PvP action. For those, all fights suddenly became life and death affairs, unpredictable, far more exciting than hunting "sheep". Also, not all "sheep" sought protection in the PvE world of Trammel; a few preferred the excitement of being always in danger of player attack. But most early UO PvPers wanted instead to kill easy targets, and most early UO PvE players didn't like being the targets, so as soon as PvE players became able to opt out of PvP they majorly did so, causing the PvPers to run out of soft targets and mostly leave the game.

 

[Valethar]

I just got rid of the ones that were getting too far off topic. Its ok to bring other relevant subjects to the table, as long as it doesn't get personal and doesn't drift too far off-topic.

Heh. I was going to point out that the definitions of sociopath and psychopath were incorrect, and why. However, after having read most of the subsequent posts, I don't think it would make a difference.

 

[Leto Thule]

Engine room, this is the commander. All power to text wall!

I expect that you will play as you like - if you can find suitable targets.

.... also, while the main roles are stated in the advertising for the game, nowhere does it mention that any of them require to be carried out against other players - that's a choice that each player makes.

And I have made that choice. I like being a pirate.

Understand that the person you are pirating may not necessarily be willing or prepared to be your content and be more "gentlemanly" about it. If they run, strip their shield and half the hull and leave it at that rather than outright destroy them. After all - what's a kill but less sauce for your goose, and you get nothing from it in truth. You've still proved your superior skills (on that occasion) and shown mercy. The next time you meet, you might get a different response.

Just a suggestion. <shrugs>

Well I would be daft if I thought they were willing to give me all of their cargo. When I interdict someone, the very first thing I do when I land on grid with them is send a message with a macro:

"Greetings pilot. Cut your engines, lower your shields, and prepare to be scanned. If you are carrying cargo, I will be taking half. If you are not, I will let you go. Comply and I will let you go. If you try to run, I will destroy your ship."

I am a pirate, I am not looking for PVP (a pirate ship would NEVER fight a naval vessel if there was a choice!) My goal is to provide income, im not looking for good fights. I dont play to prove my superiority (i dont have any, lol).

Most of the people I stop comply. Most arent carrying cargo.... so they are left peaceably with a "thank you" from me. Last night one guy shut off his entire ship... I couldnt scan him (too cold)... so I let him go. Others run. Either they get away, or lose their ship. Even less fight. I have lost two A-cobras to better pilots during my piracy runs.

Long post truncated for convenience

Hey mate, thats your choice. I disagree with it on pretty much every aspect, especially the part where you say you would hurt someone IRL for taking cargo from you in a game. But its your opinion, I have zero chance of influencing it, so ill just let that go at that.

For those of you who have the time (its a long clip), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Ymz6hc3Xc is a great explanation of proper piracy. If you can watch it with an open mind, he even shows how to evade other pirates. Good watch.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Well I would be daft if I thought they were willing to give me all of their cargo. When I interdict someone, the very first thing I do when I land on grid with them is send a message with a macro:

"Greetings pilot. Cut your engines, lower your shields, and prepare to be scanned. If you are carrying cargo, I will be taking half. If you are not, I will let you go. Comply and I will let you go. If you try to run, I will destroy your ship."

I am a pirate, I am not looking for PVP (a pirate ship would NEVER fight a naval vessel if there was a choice!) My goal is to provide income, im not looking for good fights. I dont play to prove my superiority (i dont have any, lol).

Most of the people I stop comply. Most arent carrying cargo.... so they are left peaceably with a "thank you" from me. Last night one guy shut off his entire ship... I couldnt scan him (too cold)... so I let him go. Others run. Either they get away, or lose their ship. Even less fight. I have lost two A-cobras to better pilots during my piracy runs.

You did ask. Gee, man.

Have you ever considered that some pilots have no idea about communications? It took me months just to figure out how to use that upper window? Even now I miss the odd o7 from another commander... You seem to have no empathy! And again... you did ask.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You did ask. Gee, man.

Have you ever considered that some pilots have no idea about communications? It took me months just to figure out how to use that upper window? Even now I miss the odd o7 from another commander... You seem to have no empathy! And again... you did ask.

Also, not all players read / speak English.

 

[relayer]

To be honest, this subject is even difficult to discuss here, because with the rules being what they are, it is almost impossible to accurately portray such players without committing a forum offense.

You're right, and well-said.

if we can't call a spade a spade here, we'd still like to keep other spades out of our gardens.

haha I am now stealing that; great and humorous turn of phrase!

 

[Toxic_Waster]

You did ask. Gee, man.

Have you ever considered that some pilots have no idea about communications? It took me months just to figure out how to use that upper window? Even now I miss the odd o7 from another commander... You seem to have no empathy! And again... you did ask.

I considered this so I don't even bother communicating with them.

 

[relayer]

It may be a game, but human interaction has emotional consequences.

This is the point that destroys the "it's just a game" defense.

This is why some of the best pirates in the Elite universe are gentlemen pirates, and the rest of you are rabble looking for your next thrill at the expense of others.

Well-said! [emphasis mine] +rep

 

[DarkWalker]

Also, not all players read / speak English.

Which is why a set of pre-translated emotes covering most common situations in the dev-approved roles would be a good idea. Not perfect, mind — for example, the game isn't available in my native language, so neither would official emotes — but might allow communication in situations where it's tricky nowadays.

 

[relayer]

Am I in the right thread? I thought this was the Solo/Open/Group thread. Why is it about pirating now?

 

[Jockey79]

Am I in the right thread? I thought this was the Solo/Open/Group thread. Why is it about pirating now?

Because "pirates" cannot do it in Solo, only Groups and Open - Perhaps they need the NPCs to carry cargo worth stealing

 

[Robert Maynard]

Am I in the right thread? I thought this was the Solo/Open/Group thread. Why is it about pirating now?

.... because some player pirates don't like the fact that their chosen prey can choose not to play in the same mode that they're playing in. The Solo vs Open vs Groups debate is intrinsically linked with player / player piracy for that reason.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

I may be a tad cynical, but the reason for the reluctance is because they themselves don't want to be the target.. it isn't about PVP but Dominating.. there are pvpers in the game, but many of the most vocal are not true pvpers as they don't want the vs part.. they don't play to have a fair fight, they play to overwhelm players.. they wax eloquently about "risks" and how hard Open is and why it needs x,y, and z over Solo and group, yet they attack vastly weaker opponents and many times in groups vs a single victim... for them there is no risk, no real danger of them losing anything. Put them in a private group with only PVPers and suddenly they have risk... they are no longer an Apex predator.. and that they cannot stand.

There is certain truth in what you're saying, but you stretch the extreme point with the danger of generalization. If I turn the table around I can say that "the griefer targets" are the one who are not interested in the socializing themselves, play Open World MMO game as it was a single player grinder and surprised when they got hit with baseball bat and are not beneficial to the community in general.

Also I disagree with the risk factor. In combat situation things not always go as planned. I never know who else can be watching, baiting, setting traps and etc. In high traffic there are plenty of other rival groups who basically fight for the area control. The risk is definitely less when the total dominance is reached, but I'm not aware of such groups.

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.... because some player pirates don't like the fact that their chosen prey can choose not to play in the same mode that they're playing in. The Solo vs Open vs Groups debate is intrinsically linked with player / player piracy for that reason.

May be they don't like the fact that some insist on removing non-consensual PVP from the game while these some already have PVE only modes. However, these modes are not enough, some just want it all!

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

By denying PvE players the ability to affiliate with a faction (unless they are prepared to be targets)?

Maybe special organizations or secret service or special forces would be a better way to describe it - maybe the military branch of organizations (or factions or minor-factions). PvE players would have no interest (no advantage/no reason) in becoming part of such organizations or working for them.
Players not interested in PvP could support their favorite faction or minor-faction and be affiliated with it without becoming interesting targets for PvP players since they have better targets (other PvP players who work for enemy organizations).

Making part of the game not accessible for all players is certainly a problem, but I think a solution that works for all players is possible.

I believe he is talking about specific PvP factions, that would serve as a kind of opt-in for players wanting to PvP. Align with those and you are a target; align with any other faction and you aren't.

Yes. I would like a system that gives PvP players like minded targets and making players who are primarily interested in PvE less interesting targets.

I don't think it would work well because of player density and travel time, but (as long as the PvP factions don't have any exclusive rewards) I don't have anything against that idea.

Player density and travel time is certainly a problem - especially with planetary landing added to the game. That problem is the reason why I think that the game needs a way to bring PvP players together. If the system is mission based those missions could be used to bring the players together in the same area.

I thought it could be a good way to make PvP and PvE players happy by giving them what they - PvP players get targets that are interested in PvP and better profits and PvE players get less unwanted PvP in Open Mode.

 

[Leto Thule]

You did ask. Gee, man.

Have you ever considered that some pilots have no idea about communications? It took me months just to figure out how to use that upper window? Even now I miss the odd o7 from another commander... You seem to have no empathy! And again... you did ask.

I'll admit the commo window is not the best format, but I don't have another choice if I want to give them a chance. As for not speaking English, well... Hey I guess I could Morse code it with my lights if they could still!

Look guys, I'm not attacking your play style. I don't mind solo or groups. But don't knock mine either. I do it the "nice" way, when in fact nothing is stopping me from dropping a target to grid, stripping the shields, and blowing up the cargo hatch and FSD. But I prefer giving the option to the other player. If there was a more reliable way to communicate, I would. The ONE TIME I attempted voice comms with another player, I had to turn off the speakers because I didn't want my little girl to hear the obscenities being hollered at me.

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Because "pirates" cannot do it in Solo, only Groups and Open - Perhaps they need the NPCs to carry cargo worth stealing

That would be nice.

 

[Mouse]

There is certain truth in what you're saying, but you stretch the extreme point with the danger of generalization. If I turn the table around I can say that "the griefer targets" are the one who are not interested in the socializing themselves, play Open World MMO game as it was a single player grinder and surprised when they got hit with baseball bat and are not beneficial to the community in general.

Also I disagree with the risk factor. In combat situation things not always go as planned. I never know who else can be watching, baiting, setting traps and etc. In high traffic there are plenty of other rival groups who basically fight for the area control. The risk is definitely less when the total dominance is reached, but I'm not aware of such groups.

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May be they don't like the fact that some insist on removing non-consensual PVP from the game while these some already have PVE only modes. However, these modes are not enough, some just want it all!

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

Mobius is a 15,000 strong group of PVErs and that is just from the 10% or so of the ED community who have ventured onto the forums and found out about it. How much of the other 90% of the community play in solo or small private groups because they don't about the larger community? The "griefer targets" more often than not are actually interested in socializing themselves and do so quite well, and even if someone is in solo.. they are a benefit to the community. Saying that the PVEer is antisocial and not beneficial to the community in general is false. It is those that cloak themselves in PVP but don't want PVP but dominance over soft targets that are what are not beneficial to the community in general, they are the ones driving people to solo and or away from the game.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

Mobius is a 15,000 strong group of PVErs and that is just from the 10% or so of the ED community who have ventured onto the forums and found out about it. How much of the other 90% of the community play in solo or small private groups because they don't about the larger community? The "griefer targets" more often than not are actually interested in socializing themselves and do so quite well, and even if someone is in solo.. they are a benefit to the community. Saying that the PVEer is antisocial and not beneficial to the community in general is false. It is those that cloak themselves in PVP but don't want PVP but dominance over soft targets that are what are not beneficial to the community in general, they are the ones driving people to solo and or away from the game.

I just expressed another extreme opinion that I don't share personally. Both opinions are wrong and the truth is in the middle.

I read here on forums that ED sold over 1M copies. This makes Mobius population a bit more than 1%. It's possible that the rest 99% of ED players know about Mobius, but do not want to join. May be they're all PVP players, who knows...

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… May be they're all PVP players, who knows...

I hope that someone at FD knows how many PvP players this game has, how many mode switchers, how many players in Open do PvP and how often …

 

[Toxic_Waster]

I hope that someone at FD knows how many PvP players this game has, how many mode switchers, how many players in Open do PvP and how often …

I'm sure FD knows and this is why things are as they're now. So may I suggest to stop pushing our personal agendas on other ppl playstyle?

 

[Mouse]

I'm sure FD knows and this is why things are as they're now. So may I suggest to stop pushing our personal agendas on other ppl playstyle?

That would be great.. and this Mega Thread can finally close. We keep hoping but I think the record is 6 days before someone else who claims We all need to be in Open or Open deserves benefits over other modes or that Solo and Group need to not effect anything.. at which point this whole circus is wound up again.