Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[W0OCQCK]

CQC is purely consenual PvP.

Thanks Steve I was wondering what the heck that was. I've been seeing that all day, and have been mostly clueless.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well, let me tell you about CQC Championships.

Indeed - what seems to be a PvP arena game using E: D assets and there's no confirmation of it linking in to our in-game commanders....

Frontier needs to fully commit to one thing or another and stop dancing in the grey area between PvP and PVE.

I don't think that they do - it's seems, to me at least, to be only the players who want to dictate to others how to play that have a problem with the core features of the game.

In any case, Power Play should reward players for their unique and diverse playstyles, it should also reward players for shooting down threats within allied territory and shooting down opposing Players. It should also scale depending on ship and status. (I.e. Elite, dangerous, deadly, etc.)

Again, if Frontier wanted to actively encourage PvP as part of Powerplay they would introduce rewards for PKing - they haven't done so.

CQC is purely consenual PvP.

Exactly.

 

[SteveLaw]

Thanks Steve I was wondering what the heck that was. I've been seeing that all day, and have been mostly clueless.

CQC = Close Quarters Combat = Elite: PvP Arena.

Timed exclusive on XBox, then coming to us all. Yay.

 

[torquedsoul]

I don't think that they do - it's seems, to me at least, to be only the players who want to dictate to others how to play that have a problem with the core features of the game.

If frontier didn't want pvp that wasn't consensual, they probably should have made that part of the core features. Maybe people should stop crying about how pvp'ers play the game and get up frontiers butt to change the game so it doesn't happen.

they have done everything to discourage pvp play except, you know, actually remove it from the game.

It's good to see that they are developing arena play. Now they just need to unplug the pvp from pve part of the game so that the space truckers stop complaining about pvp'ers playing the game their way.

 

[JeffRyan]

Power Play is not equal on between all three modes, like Community Goals, it has as the problem of convenience and lack of diversity. Why have the risk of other players attempting to take you down actively, when you can run off into Solo/Private and ignore those players? Also, the mode is unbelievably competitive that it almost warrants it to be exclusive to Open Play. Scaling the merit gains is one of many things, that need to be implemented into the mode.

Agreed. I don't understand the people who dig in and refuse to see that there's a difference. Take me, for two nights I dodged or fought human players in the Sol System. The problem being that whilst fighting NPCs of Zach Hudson I got them 15 merits, when fighting humans of Zach Hudson I did not.

Now time is also a resource and basically I had to meet my goal of 750 merits for promotion to rank 3 by tonight so I can make the trip home before the tick. So I can play for roughly 3 hours a night more or less.

If I spend that time in Open part of that time is given to zero-reward gameplay. If I spend that time in Group or Solo (as I was forced to last night) none of those battles were zero-reward.

Time is a resource and if I'm spending that time in Open I make less progress than when I spend it in Group or Solo.

That is why PP is unequal in all three modes.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If frontier didn't want pvp that wasn't consensual, they probably should have made that part of the core features. Maybe people should stop crying about how pvp'ers play the game and get up frontiers butt to change the game so it doesn't happen.

they have done everything to discourage pvp play except, you know, actually remove it from the game.

It's good to see that they are developing arena play. Now they just need to unplug the pvp from pve part of the game so that the space truckers stop complaining about pvp'ers playing the game their way.

It is usually argued that playing in Open means that all PvP is consensual. While PvP is possible in Open, it is certainly not mandatory, nor, it would seem, particularly encouraged. I do not expect that we will see PvP flags in-game or an Open-PvE mode - Frontier seem keen for all of those who want to encounter random players to do so in the same mode.

I agree that it is good that a PvP arena is in development - it offers those who want guaranteed PvP a separate area in which to compete.

I do not expect any separation of PvP from PvE in Open, neither do I expect a change in game mechanics to particularly suit PvP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If I spend that time in Open part of that time is given to zero-reward gameplay. If I spend that time in Group or Solo (as I was forced to last night) none of those battles were zero-reward.

Time is a resource and if I'm spending that time in Open I make less progress than when I spend it in Group or Solo.

That is why PP is unequal in all three modes.

Presumably you play in Open to affect other players and be affected by them in turn. To then complain that your progress is hampered by being affected by other players seems a bit of a contradiction.

 

[JeffRyan]

Presumably you play in Open to affect other players and be affected by them in turn. To then complain that your progress is hampered by being affected by other players seems a bit of a contradiction.

I'm not complaing I'm being hampered by other players. I'm complaining that the same time-intensive action of fighting faction members differs if they're PC or NPC. One is rewarding, the other is not.

 

[torquedsoul]

It is usually argued that playing in Open means that all PvP is consensual. While PvP is possible in Open, it is certainly not mandatory, nor, it would seem, particularly encouraged. I do not expect that we will see PvP flags in-game or an Open-PvE mode - Frontier seem keen for all of those who want to encounter random players to do so in the same mode.

I agree that it is good that a PvP arena is in development - it offers those who want guaranteed PvP a separate area in which to compete.

I do not expect any separation of PvP from PvE in Open, neither do I expect a change in game mechanics to particularly suit PvP.

Some might argue that it is idiotic to have a feature that you actively discourage players from using.

You can shoot other players ... but don't.

It makes my brain hurt every time I think about it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Some might argue that it is idiotic to have a feature that you actively discourage players from using.

You can shoot other players ... but don't.

It makes my brain hurt every time I think about it.

Some might indeed. Others may consider that consequences to actions that may curb excesses make the game more engrossing. Not all players wish to participate in PvP. Others won't initiate PvP but will retaliate / flee on a case by case basis.

Of course, the game was not pitched as a PvP-oriented game in the first place.

 

[JeffRyan]

Some might indeed. Others may consider that consequences to actions that may curb excesses make the game more engrossing. Not all players wish to participate in PvP. Others won't initiate PvP but will retaliate / flee on a case by case basis.

Of course, the game was not pitched as a PvP-oriented game in the first place.

No but it was pitched as a game with MEANINGFUL PvP. Which is the only type I seek.

 

[SteveLaw]

If I spend that time in Open part of that time is given to zero-reward gameplay.

If fighting other players gives zero reward then why does anyone still do it?

No but it was pitched as a game with MEANINGFUL PvP. Which is the only type I seek.

No it isn't. You are seeking to be rewarded for your PvP. It has been giving a contextual meaning via Power Play. Your opponents are your political rivals attempting to compete with your Power. That's the meaning. You are killing them to stop them from competing with you. that's the reason. Hunting pirates or being a pirate also give PvP meaning.

Yes, there is a disconnect between merits for NPCs rivals and PC rivals, but that doesn't remove meaning. You could argue that it breaks immersion or logic, or whatever, but it doesn't break meaning.

(I'm not even saying that I entirely disagree with your point about NPC vs PC merits, but your arguments are wandering off target.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm not complaing I'm being hampered by other players. I'm complaining that the same time-intensive action of fighting faction members differs if they're PC or NPC. One is rewarding, the other is not.

It does seem to come back to Frontier not seeming to be all-out supporters of PvP. Not actively rewarding players for destroying other players neither encourages nor discourages PvP. It has been suggested that destroying players should provide more reward than destroying NPCs in the context of Powerplay - all that that would do is reinforce the "it's a player - kill it" preferential targeting of PCs over NPCs.

It could be explained away simply: the Elite Federation of Pilots frowns on Powers rewarding EFP members for destroying other EFP members, so the Powers don't hand out rewards for the activity....

 

[JeffRyan]

If fighting other players gives zero reward then why does anyone still do it?



No it isn't. You are seeking to be rewarded for your PvP. It has been giving a contextual meaning via Power Play. Your opponents are your political rivals attempting to compete with your Power. That's the meaning. Or hunting pirates or being a pirate. All those give PvP meaning.

Depends on the reward. I think for me I need some justification and not getting a reward in this sense means I can't really justify to the person I just killed that there was a reason for it other than the sheer pleasure of blowing him out the sky. Remember I'm not a hardcore PvPer. But if there's no ingame benefit to it, I find it hard to say to myself what I did was okay. You could argue the benefits are indirect but that isn't enough for me.

I'll concede Power Play does give some meaning, but it's hard to back it up when unlike the other modes, hunting pirates (for bounty), being a pirate (getting loot), there's no possible reward for killing players in Power Play. The only reward could be lack of punishment. Which you might argue is a reward in itself but isn't enough for me.

 

[SteveLaw]

It could be explained away simply: the Elite Federation of Pilots frowns on Powers rewarding EFP members for destroying other EFP members, so they don't hand out rewards for the activity....

That's a good justification. Inter-Power conflicts are unofficial and unsanctioned by the major factions (otherwise the entire galaxy would be in a state of multiple front war) so it makes sense for the Pilot's Federation not to sanction it.

 

[JeffRyan]

It does seem to come back to Frontier not seeming to be all-out supporters of PvP. Not actively rewarding players for destroying other players neither encourages nor discourages PvP. It has been suggested that destroying players should provide more reward than destroying NPCs in the context of Powerplay - all that that would do is reinforce the "it's a player - kill it" preferential targeting of PCs over NPCs.

It could be explained away simply: the Elite Federation of Pilots frowns on Powers rewarding EFP members for destroying other EFP members, so they don't hand out rewards for the activity....

It isn't the EFP, it's my power who rewards me with merits... I don't think it should be rewarded more, just the same is enough for me.

 

[SteveLaw]

Depends on the reward. I think for me I need some justification and not getting a reward in this sense means I can't really justify to the person I just killed that there was a reason for it other than the sheer pleasure of blowing him out the sky. Remember I'm not a hardcore PvPer. But if there's no ingame benefit to it, I find it hard to say to myself what I did was okay. You could argue the benefits are indirect but that isn't enough for me.

I'll concede Power Play does give some meaning, but it's hard to back it up when unlike the other modes, hunting pirates (for bounty), being a pirate (getting loot), there's no possible reward for killing players in Power Play. The only reward could be lack of punishment. Which you might argue is a reward in itself but isn't enough for me.

They are a rival and they are interfering with your territory/blocking your expansion/etc.. Presumably as a role-player you give them an IC warning? Stand aisde and do not act/interfere or I will have to shoot... If they choose not to back down you are forced to attack. Perfectly justifiable.

 

[gary.brain]

It has been suggested that destroying players should provide more reward than destroying NPCs in the context of Powerplay - all that that would do is reinforce the "it's a player - kill it" preferential targeting of PCs over NPCs.

But then you will get , player A = sidewinder, Player B = outside station......

B kills A, rinse and repeat.


For me even if....

They added a PVP Toggle ( which for me is the easiest of solution ) with a 1 hour cool down or on death.

I would stil not play in Open because of the Lag and Rubber banding of ships in SC due to other players, ( don't get this when playing with friends ).

 

[Robert Maynard]

It isn't the EFP, it's my power who rewards me with merits... I don't think it should be rewarded more, just the same is enough for me.

I didn't mean to say that it was (although the sentence is a little convoluted and "they" could refer equally to the EFP or the Powers) - I meant that it is the Powers who don't reward EFP pilots for destroying other EFP pilots because the EFP frowns on it.

Original statement edited for clarity.

 

[SteveLaw]

It isn't the EFP, it's my power who rewards me with merits... I don't think it should be rewarded more, just the same is enough for me.

See, on this simple, clear point I agree. In Character, it doesn't make sense not to give the same reward.

However if that happened you wait and see. Players will want more reward for players than NPCs. They will want more reward for bigger ships, higher ratings, wings, etc... And then other players will be the only worthwhile targets and PP becomes CQC.

- - - Updated - - -

But then you will get , player A = sidewinder, Player B = outside station......

B kills A, rinse and repeat.

This is true as well. Rewarding PK will always be abused. Look at the Bounty farming "cheats". NPCs can't be manipulated. Once you reward PK in PP then PP becomes pay to win.