Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Mohrgan]

It's not "my" universe, sorry for not putting quotations marks, no need to take it all literally.
You don't stop powers undermining your systems by fortification, as when both sides reach 100% it's over. System is either fortified, undermined or both.
I can't stop cmdrs directly, but like I said. If I obstruct (by shooting or interdicting) a cmdr maybe I'll convince him that this system is dangerous for him and he'll move on. That way, at least, I stopped that particular cmdr. Resulting in less players undermining "my" system.

I won't even comment on monopoly reference.

And this, about me bullying other players is where you missed the point. My intention is not to bully anyone, it's the last thing I want to do.

I seek interaction with other players, dogfighting until surrender (mine or his), fight until death if need be, i'm prepared for that. Power play is about struggle, about taking something by force and not letting other player take what is yours. And, sorry, but I don't find it fun shooting NPCs in owepowered vulture all day.

I hope I made my point clear now, English is not my native language.

The fact of the matter is, there is just one persistent galaxy. We all play within it. It was designed like that from the start. As for fortify/undermine; the system was designed to be a head to head, break point type of exercise. To take into account players from all three modes. Your insistence that you have to be able to stop undermining is just not supported by the design. That should tell you something about FD stance on the matter.


Open is not the preferred mode of play. It is simply one of the choices a players makes as he/she logs in. FD has been open about their views, see the many post in this thread linking their comments. It would solve a lot of problems around here if everyone could come to grips with FD's decisions. It is hard to understand peoples insistence that others should play by their standards.

 

[SteveLaw]

You don't stop powers undermining your systems by fortification, as when both sides reach 100% it's over. System is either fortified, undermined or both.

A controlled system can be in one of three states. Neutral, Fortified or Undermined. If it is Fortified only then you pay no CC upkeep. If it Undermined only then you pay double CC upkeep. If it is neither, or both, then you pay normal CC upkeep. If you Fortify the system then the enemy can never fully Undermine it and make you pay double. But they did enough to prevent you getting it for free.

There are counter moves for each move. That's how Power Play Fortify/Undermine works. It has nothing to do with shooting other players, no matter how much you would like it to be that way. That's why it doesn't matter which mode the moves and counter moves are performed in. The game is not made for direct opposision, it is made for opposition through the counter moves.

I can't stop cmdrs directly, but like I said. If I obstruct (by shooting or interdicting) a cmdr maybe I'll convince him that this system is dangerous for him and he'll move on. That way, at least, I stopped that particular cmdr. Resulting in less players undermining "my" system.

Some players don't want you to and Frontier want them not to have to be bullied by you or forced to play your game. Some players are happy for you to try this and they will play in Open. Shoot them. You can't shoot players who don't want you to. Live with it. One of the main problems David has with Guilds is that they have a tendency to dominate. They like to force their will on others through violence or threat of violence. Exactly like you are proposing. It's not going to happen.

I won't even comment on monopoly reference.

You want to affect a game through means that are not part of the rules of that game. PvP is not part of the Fortify/Undermine mechanic. I understand that you want it to be, and therefore you want the game to change so that it can come a little closer to this desire, but it just isn't.

And this, about me bullying other players is where you missed the point. My intention is not to bully anyone, it's the last thing I want to do.

You want to repeatedly attack someone until they do what you want. That's pretty much bullying. That's fine between two consenting parties but why should everyone be subjected to your game? Why should Frontier change their game so that everyone has to play yours?

I hope I made my point clear now, English is not my native language.

It's fine I understood you completely the first time. I think the problem is that you just don't want to accept the explanations I'm giving you.

 

[ianw]

So start the thread already. Not like you can just magically click exit game and voilla you are out of danger anyway....

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Who please tell me who said Open should be forced for the love of God who ?? We are asking for them to be separate but exactly the same. You choose what you want i choose what i want and everybody is happy. I get bounties in station that i can actually hunt down because they are not hiding in Solo anymore and i can actually stop the opposition from winning a CZ just by playing Solo. And you Solo can have your grindfest continue just like you like it. So who is asking for Open only? All i see here is Please split them please split them. Is it that hard ?

The problem is that there is only one game - one background sim/narrative. The rest is just matchmaking.

If you start to try and separate things where does it stop?

Open
Solo
Private group
(all for PC/Mac)

The the same again for Xbox?
PS4?

 

[quickr]

Well what's the point of community if we can't say our opinion, point out the things we don't like or would like to change? Close the suggestion forums than.

I like this game, I love to play it, I want to be part of ever changing universe but I refuse to turn a blind eye on it's, by my standards, flaws.


I'll just drop it StewLaw, we have two completely different view points on this topic.

 

[PhazonAran]

Who please tell me who said Open should be forced for the love of God who ?? We are asking for them to be separate but exactly the same. You choose what you want i choose what i want and everybody is happy. I get bounties in station that i can actually hunt down because they are not hiding in Solo anymore and i can actually stop the opposition from winning a CZ just by playing Solo. And you Solo can have your grindfest continue just like you like it. So who is asking for Open only? All i see here is Please split them please split them. Is it that hard ?

I apologize, can't even remember how I made the assumption on forcing Open, stupidity on my part (though we saw quite a few people outright asking for solo/group suppression).

Be careful of what you're asking for though, locking out Open would make it a true PvP mode and I'm not sure most people would go into it if it was presented like that. I'm ready to bet that an Open private group would be created very fast because what you're proposing is basically "play open PvP mode or play the game like before thanks to the private groups". So let me ask you : who would choose to lock themselves into that Open mode ? I think it would only be the hardcore PvPers.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I seek interaction with other players, dogfighting until surrender (mine or his), fight until death if need be, i'm prepared for that. Power play is about struggle, about taking something by force and not letting other player take what is yours. And, sorry, but I don't find it fun shooting NPCs in owepowered vulture all day.

Your preference is clear - you choose to play that way, but you require others to also want to play that way. Other players, on the other hand, may not choose to play that way - some seem to have no interest in PvP at all.

I expect that NPC difficulty will continue to improve - Sarah-Jane has been working hard on making her minions more challenging - and she's certainly not finished....

 

[SteveLaw]

Well what's the point of community if we can't say our opinion, point out the things we don't like or would like to change? Close the suggestion forums than.

I like this game, I love to play it, I want to be part of ever changing universe but I refuse to turn a blind eye on it's, by my standards, flaws.

I'll just drop it StewLaw, we have two completely different view points on this topic.

The problem isn't having opinions it is using those opinions to claim that the game is somehow faulty or that other people's opinions are at fault or they are somehow less than you. Open players use terms like "hiding", "afraid", "shiny toys", even "cowards" and "cheating", towards Solo players.

You see how you feel when I suggest that what you want can be seen negatively (e.g. "bullying") well that's similar to how Solo players feel when their choice of play is deemed so inferior and are denigrated for it. The difference is, however, that Solo players are playing the game the way that it was sold to everyone, and they aren't asking anything to change or for anyone else to play the same way that they do. They are doing nothing wrong. The game was designed that way. If that is so offensive to some people's preferences then it begs the question why they bought this game in the first place. The freedom to choose and swap modes of accessing the same shared universe has been in the game since the very beginning.

 

[Jockey79]

Well what's the point of community if we can't say our opinion, point out the things we don't like or would like to change? Close the suggestion forums than.

I like this game, I love to play it, I want to be part of ever changing universe but I refuse to turn a blind eye on it's, by my standards, flaws.


I'll just drop it StewLaw, we have two completely different view points on this topic.

If you read post one (1) in this thread. This thread is not the first in the series, this is the second. The first was created January 2nd in response to a constant stream of new threads on the same topic.
This whole topic has been going on for over two (2) years now.

If you'd read the first page of this thread, or a couple of the last one you would have seen two things;

1) The Devs are well aware that some people do not like "Selective Multiplayer" (or "Flexi-player)
2) Frontier have stated repeatedly (the most recent time was at E3 just gone) that they are not changing it.

Now, you may feel some folks get a bit mardy while explaining it and I can fully see why. But do not take it personally, I have been repeating the Dev information since last January, all most every single day. I've taken to just copy/paste now as I'm beyond fed up typing it. I think Steve may have been explaining Frontiers stance longer than I have (???).

All we want, is people to read the first page before posting what they think is a new idea, because it's not new.
The old mega didn't see any new ideas from about February onwards.
atk2 has a thread running with an idea he is proposing and has asked the community to chip in ways to tweak it, perhaps that would be a better thread for you look at. Some good stuff in there

 

[nedeaalex]

I apologize, can't even remember how I made the assumption on forcing Open, stupidity on my part (though we saw quite a few people outright asking for solo/group suppression).

Be careful of what you're asking for though, locking out Open would make it a true PvP mode and I'm not sure most people would go into it if it was presented like that. I'm ready to bet that an Open private group would be created very fast because what you're proposing is basically "play open PvP mode or play the game like before thanks to the private groups". So let me ask you : who would choose to lock themselves into that Open mode ? I think it would only be the hardcore PvPers.

Yes and i god damn welcome them. Let them come at me. Let me get blown to bits. This is what this game is about. You die, you have to pay the price for your mistake. How many of you have 200mil+ in their bank ? What do you do with all that after you finish your last ship ?Do we just farm money until we get to the end of the Int(2,147,483,647)

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If you read post one (1) in this thread. This thread is not the first in the series, this is the second. The first was created January 2nd in response to a constant stream of new threads on the same topic.
This whole topic has been going on for over two (2) years now.

And why do you thing this is the biggest ever discussion on this forum ? Because people are pleased with how the game is right now with a Solo guy ruining my fun in Open because he just decides to farm in my CZ and the side i chose lost because i have no virtual way to stop him ? Why have wars then, if everybody fights them in their own universe?

 

[Mohrgan]

Yes and i god damn welcome them. Let them come at me. Let me get blown to bits. This is what this game is about. You die, you have to pay the price for your mistake. How many of you have 200mil+ in their bank ? What do you do with all that after you finish your last ship ?

Well, I think you have just that. Open populated by those who wish PvP, and the other modes catering to the non-PvP types if that is the groups rules. I believe it should be that way let like minded souls fly together. It's the constant griping about peoples choices that gets old. The insistence that open is the preferred mode that causes the most grief.

 

[SteveLaw]

Yes and i god damn welcome them. Let them come at me. Let me get blown to bits. This is what this game is about. You die, you have to pay the price for your mistake. How many of you have 200mil+ in their bank ? What do you do with all that after you finish your last ship ?Do we just farm money until we get to the end of the Int(2,147,483,647)

That's what this game is about for you, and that's great, but not everyone plays that way. I have about 5mil in the bank last I looked. I have an Asp, a Vulture, a Cobra and some Sidewinders. Again, not everyone plays that way.- Updated - - -

And why do you thing this is the biggest ever discussion on this forum ? Because people are pleased with how the game is right now with a Solo guy ruining my fun in Open because he just decides to farm in my CZ and the side i chose lost because i have no virtual way to stop him ? Why have wars then, if everybody fights them in their own universe?

Wars are between NPC factions, we are just allowed to join in. We can join in with NPCs and shoot NPCs in any mode.

 

[nedeaalex]

Why make another one? That poll has only been running since March this year and is still running - place your vote, encourage others - the more the merrier!

In response to the poll post. Sorry i thought you were referring to the old poll that was closed halfway. Also there are more people playing group+solo than Open. My argument still stands. Groups imho is the same as solo. You are interacting with my universe from a parallel one and i can never see you. What if i don't like that Patreus for example is invading my home system? What can i do to stop this, since commanders are in Solo all day farming? Do i just outfarm them ? Is this really what FDev wanted, everybody farming like crazy people? This is seriously sad if that is true, but i doubt they wished for such dull gameplay, there is no way a normal guy/girl would choose to farm for 10 hours instead of having a true war against the opposition. And you all with "bla blah PVP hardcore fans"...can you all please stop? If you came to the combat zone, that means you are willing to get beaten imo. Ok fine don't split them. That would be too hard. Make combat zones and strike zones and anything that involves PvP and has a big impact on the Universe Multiplayer. If you want to participate in the galactic war, then you should be told that can only be done in Open so it is FAIR. Why GW2 has a WvW system online not in Solo. Why PLanetside2 is Online? When i heard about PP all i could think of was "Cool ! Just like in PLanetside we will fight for systems and resources!". Only now i see we are not actually fighting for anything. We are just farming away and whoever farms more wins. This is seriously not fun at all and i can't imagine any of you seriously prefer farming 5 hours straight than having a little 20min PvP session with another pilot. Just my 2 RON( ). But as many opinions here stand, they are just forgoten and swallowed by oblivion without the devs actually reading them. I'm sure you, Robert, didn't create that thread about how to bring people in Open for PP just by your own initiative? I sure do hope that thread was asked for by devs who want ideas. What is so wrong about doing this: every time you want to enter a CZ, you will be placed in an instance, that must be Open. Ofcourse it can have no other people and just be empty. This way we surpass the routers stuff aswell. Because the Main server will force you into a small one, or you can't join at all. WHY not?

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That's what this game is about for you, and that's great, but not everyone plays that way. I have about 5mil in the bank last I looked. I have an Asp, a Vulture, a Cobra and some Sidewinders. Again, not everyone plays that way.- Updated - - -



Wars are between NPC factions, we are just allowed to join in. We can join in with NPCs and shoot NPCs in any mode.

Well then this makes me very a very sad puppy . I seriously hoped this game would stop making us bystanders and let us take at least some matters into our own hands. Yes Patreus is the leader of his Power. But can i not be an admiral for his army if i prove my worth? That really makes it dull and boring for me and for many others, and i back this with the fact that this thread is still going strong after 2 years. Seriously that is a stupid decision. I don't want o control the Power, i just want to be able to fight a proper war. If my power decides to fight yours for example(don't know if you pledged to one anyway ) i should be able to see you and stop you from decimating my ranks of the army. This way, the Power with the actual good pilots will win. Not the one with the most hours played...

 

[nedeaalex]

Well, I think you have just that. Open populated by those who wish PvP, and the other modes catering to the non-PvP types if that is the groups rules. I believe it should be that way let like minded souls fly together. It's the constant griping about peoples choices that gets old. The insistence that open is the preferred mode that causes the most grief.

Not even buddy. I wish it was at least this way. But even those who want PvP left open or the game because there is nobody to PvP against. And they are just grinding in Solo for their power like the rest of us, each in his separate universe...very very sad. This is honestly how i see the game dying, everyone grinding in his universe and Open becomes no more than Mobius. A sad ending for such a great game. Have you looked on the Steam forums perhaps? Where the mods are not protective ? Do you see the feedback there. Man everyone there is screaming for Open and basically the same thing as here, the only difference is that they, from what i can see, are generally upset with the game and don't play it anymore.

 

[Robert Maynard]

In response to the poll post. Sorry i thought you were referring to the old poll that was closed halfway. Also there are more people playing group+solo than Open. My argument still stands. Groups imho is the same as solo. You are interacting with my universe from a parallel one and i can never see you. What if i don't like that Patreus for example is invading my home system? What can i do to stop this, since commanders are in Solo all day farming? Do i just outfarm them ? Is this really what FDev wanted, everybody farming like crazy people? This is seriously sad if that is true, but i doubt they wished for such dull gameplay, there is no way a normal guy/girl would choose to farm for 10 hours instead of having a true war against the opposition. And you all with "bla blah PVP hardcore fans"...can you all please stop? If you came to the combat zone, that means you are willing to get beaten imo. Ok fine don't split them. That would be too hard. Make combat zones and strike zones and anything that involves PvP and has a big impact on the Universe Multiplayer. If you want to participate in the galactic war, then you should be told that can only be done in Open so it is FAIR. Why GW2 has a WvW system online not in Solo. Why PLanetside2 is Online? When i heard about PP all i could think of was "Cool ! Just like in PLanetside we will fight for systems and resources!". Only now i see we are not actually fighting for anything. We are just farming away and whoever farms more wins. This is seriously not fun at all and i can't imagine any of you seriously prefer farming 5 hours straight than having a little 20min PvP session with another pilot. Just my 2 RON( ). But as many opinions here stand, they are just forgoten and swallowed by oblivion without the devs actually reading them. I'm sure you, Robert, didn't create that thread about how to bring people in Open for PP just by your own initiative? I sure do hope that thread was asked for by devs who want ideas. What is so wrong about doing this: every time you want to enter a CZ, you will be placed in an instance, that must be Open. Ofcourse it can have no other people and just be empty. This way we surpass the routers stuff aswell. Because the Main server will force you into a small one, or you can't join at all. WHY not?

Combat Zones are just that - Combat Zones - in Solo they only contain the player and NPCs, on the other modes they may contain more than one player on more than one side. To force players in Solo / Private Groups into Open when they enter Combat Zones would, I strongly suspect, not be an acceptable solution for many players who choose not to play in Open.

Regarding the thread seeking ideas as to how to encourage players to engage in Powerplay in Open, that was created after atak2 posted a new thread (his OP is the second post in that thread). It was not at the request of Frontier.

Again, forcing any player who want's to play the game in a Combat Zone into Open is a change that would almost certainly not be acceptable to most players who do not play in Open - it would be forcing players into Open, after all....

 

[Robert Maynard]

If my power decides to fight yours for example(don't know if you pledged to one anyway ) i should be able to see you and stop you from decimating my ranks of the army. This way, the Power with the actual good pilots will win. Not the one with the most hours played...

Powerplay can be played in any mode - it is not limited to Open.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Yes and i god damn welcome them. Let them come at me. Let me get blown to bits. This is what this game is about. You die, you have to pay the price for your mistake. How many of you have 200mil+ in their bank ? What do you do with all that after you finish your last ship ?Do we just farm money until we get to the end of the Int(2,147,483,647)

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And why do you thing this is the biggest ever discussion on this forum ? Because people are pleased with how the game is right now with a Solo guy ruining my fun in Open because he just decides to farm in my CZ and the side i chose lost because i have no virtual way to stop him ? Why have wars then, if everybody fights them in their own universe?

I've said this before to other posters: your strength of feeling comes from the misplaced idea that this game is about non-consensual pvp and "The strong overpowering the weak in combat". You are entitled to that opinion, that does not make it correct.

There are two inter-connected points. 1) Open should be separate from Solo / Group normally "because all these farmers come at me with their Farmerconda and it is unfair". 2) Once the modes are separated, Open gets its own PP / CG / CZ / so "I" can enforce my will on the weak and helpless (who will be overjoyed at the emergent gameplay interaction...)

The first point is a strawman. If you look at the posters who come here saying separate the modes, none that I have ever seen come in saying "I got griefed by a Farmerconda"; without exception it is "I have no sheep to cull"

The second point is a non-sequitur. "I can only stop PP action by pew pew, therefore all PP action must be in Open". By willfully ignoring the basis of PP mechanics, that everyone can take part and do their bit for their Patron, you seek to reduce all interaction in the game to "I can stop you by shooting you and it is up to you to shoot me or flee".

This is at variance to the stated design of the game, which has been the same since kickstarter, through beta and into general release.

Another strawman is "All the Xboners want pew pew so the PC game must be changed". If all the Xboners don't read up on the game before buying it, that is unfortunate for them. It will not facilitate a change in game design to remedy their (allegedly) poor comprehension skills.

 

[nedeaalex]

Combat Zones are just that - Combat Zones - in Solo they only contain the player and NPCs, on the other modes they may contain more than one player on more than one side. To force players in Solo / Private Groups into Open when they enter Combat Zones would, I strongly suspect, not be an acceptable solution for many players who choose not to play in Open.

Regarding the thread seeking ideas as to how to encourage players to engage in Powerplay in Open, that was created after atak2 posted a new thread (his OP is the second post in that thread). It was not at the request of Frontier.

Again, forcing any player who want's to play the game in a Combat Zone into Open is a change that would almost certainly not be acceptable to most players who do not play in Open - it would be forcing players into Open, after all....

Kind of expected this response to be fair . Yeah i know that, but you have to see my point of view. Yes i like the game. I just embarked on an exploration mission seeing that there is not much war to be had in populated space anyway. And i love to be able to discover planets and this stuff. It's relaxing. But many other find it boring. So they want PvP. "Ok " they say "let's find some combat zones i feel like battling another commander for life and death". The only problem is when they get there, nobody is there...ever. Because everyone is in Solo. Why play in Open, when you can grind in Solo, make more money, earn easier merit points and generally destroying the opposition with your grind ? So they just leave the game or come here on the forums. That is why i like StarCitizen. It may be a lot buggier. It may be clunckier at flying. It may be a cashgrab for now. But at least, they promised that PU(persisten Universe) is going to be Open only. And that you have perma death after 2-3 times playing with the fire. They promised we can have wars(ofc instanced wars) but still, war with people. Real people, not robots who keep asking me what cargo i hold and then leaving.

 

[Derath]

I was told SC was going to run on the same unbelievably daft never before tried for obvious reasons setup that ED uses, is that not true?

An open only server? I'm In.

 

[nedeaalex]

Powerplay can be played in any mode - it is not limited to Open.

You know Robert Sometimes i wonder if you are trolling me or not . Is there anyone who doesn't know that by now ? I know it is that way. All im saying is this game is a Sim. A Sim should simulate real life. If this Sim chose to be multiplayer, why is everyone in another parallel Universe. That is my question which is a question of logic, not what the game offers. Just your general logic, what does it say? Is it fair that i fight a war against an enemy i can never see?

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I was told SC was going to run on the same unbelievably daft never before tried for obvious reasons setup that ED uses, is that not true?

An open only server? I'm In.

No it will have "Custom servers" to do whatever you wish. It will have Singleplayer Campaign and maybe Co-op camapaign. And then there is the Persistent Universe. In the Persistent Universe you are "forced" to play in Open. There is no way around it. And no it does not use the same p2p as ED. There you can't just tweak your router and not see enemies ever. You are forced to play Open or you don't play Persistent Universe.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yeah i know that, but you have to see my point of view. Yes i like the game. I just embarked on an exploration mission seeing that there is not much war to be had in populated space anyway. And i love to be able to discover planets and this stuff. It's relaxing. But many other find it boring. So they want PvP. "Ok " they say "let's find some combat zones i feel like battling another commander for life and death". The only problem is when they get there, nobody is there...ever. Because everyone is in Solo.

I understand your point of view and if the game had been pitched as an online-all-in-the-same-mode game, I would accept it - however the game was not pitched that way and I appreciate the freedoms that Frontier have given players by not making all of us play in the same mode all the time.

If guaranteed PvP is what you want, I would hope that you will enjoy the Close Quarter Combat (CQC) module that is being added - it's not linked to our in-game commanders but will allow players to progress their CQC character.