Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Missed my point. A flawed design was successfully pitched, which does not make it less flawed. Not to mention that there were ways to cater to everyone. But not by the same rules. Just like the dropped offline mode was supposed to have a totally different set of rules, including a static universe, so solo and group modes could have different rules from Open.

This can still be achieved:

1. Switching timers. If you go to solo from Open, you cannot go back to open for a set period of time.
2. Cooldown timers. If you participate in PvP in Open, you cannot go to solo for a set period of time.
3. While solo players can sign up and get rewards from community goals, their scores should not be tallied for the goal progress.

Do these three things, and a lot of the issues with multiplayer would be resolved.

1) Let me consider that carefully.... how about NO.
2) LOL, define participate.
3) Better idea - give those who do it in open more weight. Give them a 10% (just a random number, can be adjusted) "difficulty" bonus. I think most people wouldn't mind that one bit. They did it for trading and both sides of the fence seemed to like the idea.
 
Missed my point. A flawed design was successfully pitched, which does not make it less flawed. Not to mention that there were ways to cater to everyone. But not by the same rules. Just like the dropped offline mode was supposed to have a totally different set of rules, including a static universe, so solo and group modes could have different rules from Open.

It's flawed for you. For many it's a perfectly good design, while anything that would force players to directly interact with each other, or prevent players in solo or group modes from taking part in the community goals, would be deeply flawed instead.

You go from the point of view that this is a PvP and competitive game, while for many players it was sold as a "play your own way," cooperative game, with the option of consensual PvP, and where players wouldn't face any consequences for choosing to play alone (solo) or in invitation-only groups.

By the way, the fact an offline mode was originally offered and then dropped makes it even less likely that those that want to push players into open can win this argument for two different reasons. First, because many players that don't care, at all, for all this competition nonsense ended up in the game, and are expressing their wishes now; second, because playing in solo mode was offered as a compromise solution to those players that emphatically demanded the offline mode, so limiting it in any way — including limiting its influence or how often players can change modes — would be received even more poorly than it otherwise should.
 
It would seem to me that in order to add any validity to the arguments as to how non open players are actually affecting community goals like Lugh there would have to be some hard evidence to back them up. As it is this is conjecture which ever way you look at it.
 
I'm limiting my reply to this last paragraph because everything you say prior to it is just more of what you have said before... and it still 'ain't so'. (Besides I have to start work in 3 mins :) )

Who are these 'invulnerable PVE players you talk about? And what are these PVP battlefields? As far as i am aware their are no PVP battlefields anywhere in the game.

I would assume hes talking about Lugh, where the result determines who's in control of the system.
 
Solo mode was there from the start, the removal of Offline mode is unrelated.

The presence of solo is unrelated to offline being removed, true. But when offline was removed, the canned answer Frontier sent to everyone that demanded refunds it included an appeal to try solo instead, so they increased both the number of players that were inclined to focus on solo play and the expectations that solo would always be available without any kind of handicap.
 
This textbook perfect example of cognitive dissonance is exactly why this thread exists and goes round in circles again and again and again. Hundreds before you have made exactly the same arguments, using exactly the same points and exactly the same reasons, almost verbatim. Hundreds. Even after reading the MB quotes in the OP. I really don't understand it.

They made those arguments because those arguments are sound and backed by solid facts, some of which I listed here, none of which were directly disputed, with counter arguments mostly reduced to comments about my personal views and dispositions.

Additionally, the opposing side of the argument consistently makes hypocritical appeals to equality of all players, not realizing that equality is exactly what we are arguing for.

This is why most games keep these two groups of players separated. The difference in the way of thinking is so great, they cannot even understand each other.
 
Community Goals are for the Community. As hard as it may be for some to believe, but Solo/Group players are part of that Community.

The Idea that "I should matter more then some other Player" is a bit silly, every player has the same importance and the same rights no matter how he chooses to play.

Case in point, here we have a statement that claims a player with zero ties, interaction or communication with the Open community, is still part of that community. I think some people need to open up a dictionary a look the word up.

You are not part of the Open community if you play solo, or in Mobius, or in some other separate group. For us, you do not exist. We will never see you in game, you will never see us. A player lost somewhere halfway to the other side of the virtual galaxy is more a part of the Open community than a solo player working the Lave trade route.

And still, you think you deserve special treatment. It is you who believes that you matter more than us. Because you want it all. You want to be left alone in your solo dimension and still you want to change the game world we all play in. You want to play the game we all play, but not with us. You want the ball all to yourself.

Do I let off an air of entitlement? Perhaps. But I am certainly not the only one.
 
with counter arguments mostly reduced to comments about my personal views and dispositions.

When you insult and belittle the men and woman who are working hard on this game (one which you say you enjoy), then of course that's going to happen, which is why you did it as it deflects.
In short, Frontier are making the game they want to make, not the game you want them to make and until such time as you understand that, you will continue in the same circles as the hundreds before you regardless of how many "facts" you think you are the first to elucidate upon.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Case in point, here we have a statement that claims a player with zero ties, interaction or communication with the Open community, is still part of that community. I think some people need to open up a dictionary a look the word up.

You are not part of the Open community if you play solo, or in Mobius, or in some other separate group. For us, you do not exist. We will never see you in game, you will never see us.

Not the open community, no - but all players are part of the game's community.

Also, all players have the choice each game session which game mode they want to play in, so (if the recent poll is anything to go by) most players play in open at least some of the time.
 
The thing is, that if this all were really so important to you (not personally you of course, but Open Only Purists) then why were these opinions of poor game mechanics not brought in at the time they could have had any meaning or influence? If you'd backed at a sufficient level, you could have perhaps negotiated some changes via the DDF. And how many of those type of players actually did that?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The thing is, that if this all were really so important to you (not personally you of course, but Open Only Purists) then why were these opinions of poor game mechanics not brought in at the time they could have had any meaning or influence? If you'd backed at a sufficient level, you could have perhaps negotiated some changes via the DDF. And how many of those type of players actually did that?

Not very many, from memory....
 
The thing is, that if this all were really so important to you (not personally you of course, but Open Only Purists) then why were these opinions of poor game mechanics not brought in at the time they could have had any meaning or influence? If you'd backed at a sufficient level, you could have perhaps negotiated some changes via the DDF. And how many of those type of players actually did that?

Unfortunately, I found out about the game when it was already in Premium Beta stage. I backed, but at that time major design discussions were over. I did voice my opinion on the flaws of current multiplayer design before, we had a lot of very long discussions about the subject.

You have to keep in mind that the game, when it was advertised on Kickstarter and during early development, had a very tight-knit and homogenous community, mostly composed of players who naturally were attracted to the initial proposal.

Now, the game is no longer attracting this kind of audience. Both because it is designed to attract players who crave freedom of choice (guess what PvPers like) and due to the marketing of the game. EVERY single official trailer out there shows players competing with each other, violently so. They show PvP action, and that is what is seen.

The problems I speak of are insidious ones. They do not show up immediately. They gnaw on the community slowly. The game is still new and fresh and people are still experimenting and are not too attached. But consider the example of Lugh, where a group of players, as far as I know playing mostly in Open, worked for months to flip the system, bugs and all. Now, the fight is on, and that's great. And yeah, the odds are not too good in favor of the rebels, but that's not the issue. The issue is that those months of work stand a chance of being wiped out not by an overwhelming force of the opposing team, but by an untouchable one.

That's the kind of unfairness I'm talking about, and, as people "grow into" the game, adopt factions and make opposing camps, these problems are only going to become more and more obvious.
 
Now, the game is no longer attracting this kind of audience. Both because it is designed to attract players who crave freedom of choice (guess what PvPers like) and due to the marketing of the game. EVERY single official trailer out there shows players competing with each other, violently so. They show PvP action, and that is what is seen.

I take issue with this. But rather than once again point out that you are just projecting your opinion, this time I'm going to ask you to back up your opinions. Where are you getting your data that the game is no longer attracting 'this kind of audience'. Where in the marketing of the game does it say that Ed is a PvP game? Where on the , admittedly dramatized, trailers does it show definite PvP action? (And I don't just mean 'oh you can tell by this that and the other'. I mean actual FD trailers with CMDR names or hollow shapes on the radar... you know, the ONLY definite ways of showing Players rather than NPCs)
 
This thread is like a bad Aussie (sorry Aussie's) or British/American/South American soap opera, I'm inexplicably drawn to it, even though I know I'm never going hear anything new. I keep expecting CMDR "Dirty Den" or "Angie" to pop up and shout "Rickieeeeeeee" (just goes to show when the last time was I watched "Eastenders"!). I would have thought that if FD were going to get rid of Solo mode it would have happened by now or in Beta stage, however it has not, and they have stated that it's not going to happen, so it looks like you all can continue your arguing just to try and get this thread to make the magic 5000 post figure, or it can finish and then we can await the eagerly anticipated -

The Solo Vs Open thread II - The Open Mode strikes back !

The Solo Vs Open Thread III - Return of the Solo Mode !

The Solo Vs Open Thread IV - The Group Mode Menace !

The Solo Vs Open Thread V - Attack of the NPC's !

The Solo Vs Open Thread VI - Revenge of the Mod's !

I know, I know, there is a seventh movie and the above are not in the correct order, but I have now lost the will to live.

Live long and Prosper, as a well known Vulcan said, whatever Mode you live for!
 
Last edited:
Case in point, here we have a statement that claims a player with zero ties, interaction or communication with the Open community, is still part of that community. I think some people need to open up a dictionary a look the word up.

You are not part of the Open community if you play solo, or in Mobius, or in some other separate group. For us, you do not exist. We will never see you in game, you will never see us. A player lost somewhere halfway to the other side of the virtual galaxy is more a part of the Open community than a solo player working the Lave trade route.

And still, you think you deserve special treatment. It is you who believes that you matter more than us. Because you want it all. You want to be left alone in your solo dimension and still you want to change the game world we all play in. You want to play the game we all play, but not with us. You want the ball all to yourself.

Do I let off an air of entitlement? Perhaps. But I am certainly not the only one.
Community goals are not restricted to the open community, which is a subset of the adjective-less community. There is one community in Elite, which is the player base. Open, group, solo, are sub-communities, that together compromise the whole. I play in Mobius almost exclusively, but that doesn't mean the solo player who I'll never see does not belong to the same community as I do because he plays in a different sub-community. Ditto for the open player that I'll never see.

As circular as this argument may be, there is a constant pattern to the whining. It's not the solo and group players who are incessantly pleading that FD alter someone else's game for selfish reasons. From what I can see, solo and group players are just fine with open players doing their thing, and have no desire to change their experience as it exists now. The converse is not true.

This is provided that the aforementioned communities even exist as they are presented. I know a great many Mobius members play open as well, when they feel like it.

It's like the trader, bounty hunter, pirate, miner thing. This one I'm sure doesn't exist. There may be some few players who play one role to the exclusion of all others, but I'd bet the farm that it's a small minority. The majority of players I've come in contact with in game and in the forum seem to dabble in at least two (and I use the term loosely) professions.

IMHO, this where you are all getting lost in this argument. There are no open players, solo players, or group players. There are no traders, pirates, bounty hunters or miners. There are just players who on any given day, can play whatever role they want, in whatever mode they want, and are perfectly free to change their minds at any time and do something else.

Elite: Dangerous would lose a great deal of freedom if players were locked into any combination of the above.
 
Case in point, here we have a statement that claims a player with zero ties, interaction or communication with the Open community, is still part of that community. I think some people need to open up a dictionary a look the word up.

You are not part of the Open community if you play solo, or in Mobius, or in some other separate group. For us, you do not exist. We will never see you in game, you will never see us. A player lost somewhere halfway to the other side of the virtual galaxy is more a part of the Open community than a solo player working the Lave trade route.

And still, you think you deserve special treatment. It is you who believes that you matter more than us. Because you want it all. You want to be left alone in your solo dimension and still you want to change the game world we all play in. You want to play the game we all play, but not with us. You want the ball all to yourself.

Do I let off an air of entitlement? Perhaps. But I am certainly not the only one.
Thats where you get it all wrong, there are not 3 communitys, just one. There is hardly any diffrence between the 3 Modes, its just a tool that gives Player a bit of control over matchmaking none of these Modes is any way a diffrent Game/Galaxy.

I also don't get where I ask for special treament, I ask that all People get treaten the same, which the Game does - You get the same Money for the same things I do, you have access to same content I have and you have the exact same amount of influance on the Background Sim I have. How its asking for special treatment when I want it to keep being this is beyond me (and you can be sure, If somebody comes and ask that open Players should get less Money/have less influence on the Background Sim I will fight them just as I fight you).

And you also keep forgetting that what People in open do effects people in Solo the exact same way as it is the other way around. Again, its all equal.
 
I would gladly pay $75.00-$100.00 for a new, fresh start, solo game, unconnected with the present games (no transfer-ability, no persistent universe shared with the current game).

Elite: Reboot.

It is unlikely to ever occur. :(
 
Thats where you get it all wrong, there are not 3 communitys, just one. There is hardly any diffrence between the 3 Modes, its just a tool that gives Player a bit of control over matchmaking none of these Modes is any way a diffrent Game/Galaxy.

I also don't get where I ask for special treament, I ask that all People get treaten the same, which the Game does - You get the same Money for the same things I do, you have access to same content I have and you have the exact same amount of influance on the Background Sim I have. How its asking for special treatment when I want it to keep being this is beyond me (and you can be sure, If somebody comes and ask that open Players should get less Money/have less influence on the Background Sim I will fight them just as I fight you).

And you also keep forgetting that what People in open do effects people in Solo the exact same way as it is the other way around. Again, its all equal.

Try a combat zone in Lugh solo then Lugh open, and tell me again the game treats you the same.
 
I also don't get where I ask for special treament, I ask that all People get treaten the same, which the Game does - You get the same Money for the same things I do, you have access to same content I have and you have the exact same amount of influance on the Background Sim I have. How its asking for special treatment when I want it to keep being this is beyond me

From what I've seen, this is because many proponents of separate modes, or of Open getting bonuses, etc, see Solo as Elite:EZ-mode, where you practically get handed fully kitted out Anacondas on a silver platter as soon as you hit the 'Solo' button, so you're having as much influence on the game as those playing in 'hard mode', AKA Open. The fact this doesn't really relate in any way to reality doesn't seem to matter.
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom