Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Jorlin]

My comments about the "crime" update should be alarming to solo/pve players. FD have stuck wings on a horse and called it a duck. It's still a horse regardless what FD tell me . . .

The recent crime update doesn't actually do anything to stop crime. All it does is harm solo/pve players whilst not addressing any of the issues open players have asked for. It might stop the odd player rampaging but they can drop to solo for a week and then pay it off so it's pointless.

All the recent changes are purely designed to stop griefers ramming in open (at like one station, lave) and to stop bounty farmers and credit sellers in open who would farm the bounties in solo/group due to the mode switching.

Why aren't you kicking off about it? The people going to be harmed are solo/pve players who go too fast in to a station or accidentally shoot a clean ship in a res. Neither of the changes do anything to fix the problems in open or the problems with crime in general over all of the modes.

The open pvp crowd are wanting higher security response in all sectors of space except anarchy, higher bounties for murder (player or npc), wing beacon fixes (shield exploit, trade warp), interdiction cooldown and masslock tweaks and some kind of fix or punishment for combat loggers and exploiters.

Right now the only difference this "crime" update makes is if I want to pirate or kill players I have to make sure I docked at an anarchy station in case I die. I can go and kill a T9 player filled with palladium (15mil cost) and I still only get a 6 grand bounty which I still don't need to pay off. It's ludicrous! One of the most well known pirates in open is quitting over this. Yes pirates want consequences, we already lost Derath last month, how many more will follow?

If you think any of the above changes I suggested ruin the game for solo/pve vs fd's recent changes then you need to go read them again. The only changes that "might" affect solo/pve have been separate cgs.

If you guys didn't shoot down every open/pvp discussion on the forums maybe FD would have seen more of these issues and acted on them instead of a bunch of "fixes" that will do nothing for the game but harm solo/pve players in the long run.

I see it as a "first step" to add consequences for decisions you make. Those are missing in almost every regard... not just crimes.

You are right, it won't stop "true griefers".
But what to do? Just up the bounty for murder flat? Making it a percentage of the financial damage they caused?
I think it will be tricky to balance it so it works...

 

[Robert Maynard]

I see it as a "first step" to add consequences for decisions you make. Those are missing in almost every regard... not just crimes.

Indeed....

Combat and law are pretty significant elements in Elite: Dangerous, which was never intended to be an "arcade space shooter". Actions have consequences. This change is to hopefully remedy the issue that crime often does *not* have much consequence at the moment.

 

[SteveLaw]

There you go again Distance. You are making it all confrontational. "kicking off", "the open pvp crowd are wanting" (newsflash, everyone wants those things except PK idiots) "if you guys didn't shoot down", etc.. Go and complain about us big bad unreasonable PvE players to Reddit. Remember to tell them you are mainly PvE too.

 

[Faded Glory]

My comments about the "crime" update should be alarming to solo/pve players. FD have stuck wings on a horse and called it a duck. It's still a horse regardless what FD tell me . . .

The recent crime update doesn't actually do anything to stop crime. All it does is harm solo/pve players whilst not addressing any of the issues open players have asked for. It might stop the odd player rampaging but they can drop to solo for a week and then pay it off so it's pointless.

All the recent changes are purely designed to stop griefers ramming in open (at like one station, lave) and to stop bounty farmers and credit sellers in open who would farm the bounties in solo/group due to the mode switching.

Why aren't you kicking off about it? The people going to be harmed are solo/pve players who go too fast in to a station or accidentally shoot a clean ship in a res. Neither of the changes do anything to fix the problems in open or the problems with crime in general over all of the modes.

The open pvp crowd are wanting higher security response in all sectors of space except anarchy, higher bounties for murder (player or npc), wing beacon fixes (shield exploit, trade warp), interdiction cooldown and masslock tweaks and some kind of fix or punishment for combat loggers and exploiters.

Right now the only difference this "crime" update makes is if I want to pirate or kill players I have to make sure I docked at an anarchy station in case I die. I can go and kill a T9 player filled with palladium (15mil cost) and I still only get a 6 grand bounty which I still don't need to pay off. It's ludicrous! One of the most well known pirates in open is quitting over this. Yes pirates want consequences, we already lost Derath last month, how many more will follow?

If you think any of the above changes I suggested ruin the game for solo/pve vs fd's recent changes then you need to go read them again. The only changes that "might" affect solo/pve have been separate cgs.

If you guys didn't shoot down every open/pvp discussion on the forums maybe FD would have seen more of these issues and acted on them instead of a bunch of "fixes" that will do nothing for the game but harm solo/pve players in the long run.

Sadly I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't think they will penalize solo / group players more, but they don't really address the problem of making player murder a serious offense, so it's not likely to help get players (back) into open.

It seems to me also that by making bounties specific to a jurisdiction, this will make it a non issue to pick up a bounty in System A, and simply move to System B until said bounty can be paid off. We'll have to see what the Interstellar bounty is. I don't know if I've understood it completely correctly.

As for bounties being persistent for smaller offense such as FF, I think they have probably gone the wrong way. They are going to increase the threshold for FF, which just negates the need to use awareness and trigger discipline, but if you exceed it you are wanted for 7 days? The same as someone who has deliberately murdered players? They've left room for changing things here, but the forums will be interesting reading for a while, as I'd be surprised if they can make the FF threshold high enough without completely negating it as an offense, and the outrage over a 200 credit fine that you can pay off immediately is already huge.

 

[Distance]

I see it as a "first step" to add consequences for decisions you make. Those are missing in almost every regard... not just crimes.

You are right, it won't stop "true griefers".
But what to do? Just up the bounty for murder flat? Making it a percentage of the financial damage they caused?
I think it will be tricky to balance it so it works...

It's a first step but one that's more detrimental to solo/pve players than anyone else. They've said the full intergalactic bounties won't take effect anyway with 1.3 so it's half baked. It's just like when they tried to add marked cargo in to 1.2 without the option to remove the mark.

Right now the crime update isn't going to help anything in open and it now means that when a solo or group player wants to pop on for a spot of farming in a res in the couple of hours they have free for a night, they accidentally hit a clean ship and they have to move to a completely different system to carry on playing.

They didn't even raise the bounty for a kill which would have been the main deterrent, even more so if it was only player kills that got the increased bounty so it wouldn't disrupt solo/group. I can wipe out someone for 15mil and get a 6g bounty, still . . .

Instead people are more interested in discussing how brutal hitting a ship at 101 speed will be because a couple of griefers in open at Lave have been ramming people. FD have them on video doing it and instead of stepping in and banning them to solo for a few weeks or at least giving a warning they're creating a whole new half baked game mechanic that will affect everyone regardless of mode.

This softly softly approach to griefers, exploiters and credit farmers needs to stop as it messes up the game for everyone.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Muahaha, my evil masterplan of just having fun in Solo and ruining the Game for everybody else this way is finally going to work!

Seriously, dunno why the crime update should ruin my gaming expierence, all I can see are improvements for me. I also only see improvment for open players, its not perfect and all, but its better then what we have now. I could be wrong of course, what do I know about what is going on in the minds of PvP players, never understood them ^^

 

[fademist]

My comments about the "crime" update should be alarming to solo/pve players. FD have stuck wings on a horse and called it a duck. It's still a horse regardless what FD tell me . . .

The recent crime update doesn't actually do anything to stop crime. All it does is harm solo/pve players whilst not addressing any of the issues open players have asked for. It might stop the odd player rampaging but they can drop to solo for a week and then pay it off so it's pointless.

All the recent changes are purely designed to stop griefers ramming in open (at like one station, lave) and to stop bounty farmers and credit sellers in open who would farm the bounties in solo/group due to the mode switching.

Why aren't you kicking off about it? The people going to be harmed are solo/pve players who go too fast in to a station or accidentally shoot a clean ship in a res. Neither of the changes do anything to fix the problems in open or the problems with crime in general over all of the modes.

The open pvp crowd are wanting higher security response in all sectors of space except anarchy, higher bounties for murder (player or npc), wing beacon fixes (shield exploit, trade warp), interdiction cooldown and masslock tweaks and some kind of fix or punishment for combat loggers and exploiters.

Right now the only difference this "crime" update makes is if I want to pirate or kill players I have to make sure I docked at an anarchy station in case I die. I can go and kill a T9 player filled with palladium (15mil cost) and I still only get a 6 grand bounty which I still don't need to pay off. It's ludicrous! One of the most well known pirates in open is quitting over this. Yes pirates want consequences, we already lost Derath last month, how many more will follow?

If you think any of the above changes I suggested ruin the game for solo/pve vs fd's recent changes then you need to go read them again. The only changes that "might" affect solo/pve have been separate cgs.

If you guys didn't shoot down every open/pvp discussion on the forums maybe FD would have seen more of these issues and acted on them instead of a bunch of "fixes" that will do nothing for the game but harm solo/pve players in the long run.

why that changes hurt solo/pve players?

 

[Distance]

There you go again Distance. You are making it all confrontational. "kicking off", "the open pvp crowd are wanting" (newsflash, everyone wants those things except PK idiots) "if you guys didn't shoot down", etc.. Go and complain about us big bad unreasonable PvE players to Reddit. Remember to tell them you are mainly PvE too.

Well that was productive, address the language used but not the points made. Try addressing the post's content rather than the language used to forward the ideas.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Completely wrong - so goes to show you've never played as part of the group or just resort to telling lies about it to push your agenda.

First of all, lose the 'tude dude, nowhere in my post did I claim to be an expert at group play. You got me, I've never even played mobius. You'll have to forgive me for thinking a mode that bans pvp doesn't have pvp in it. I don't know what I was thinking.

Second, it's pretty arrogant to assume that just because you find nonconsensual pvp meaningless that everyone feels the same. You also cherry picking your data, you pick the worst areas in open and then claim the entirety of open, is a gankfest. Try flying 30ly in any direction and then report back to me.

While I'm searching youtube I'm sure I can find videos of people killing in mobius(they were probably banned shortly after, but still). Does that mean mobius is a gankfest too?

Lastly, I still stand by what I said, mobius' pvp is practically(happy now?) nonexistent and has no meaning. The combat zones are the elite version of deathmatch/horde mode. It doesn't allow piracy or bounty hunting, which (even you have to admit) is the meaningful pvp that was envisioned for elite.

Open is slightly more pvp centric than expected but mobius is waaay too far in the other direction.

 

[Jockey79]

It's a first step but one that's more detrimental to solo/pve players than anyone else.

You keep saying it, but I'm not seeing it.
I've read the Dev update, and slowing people down in the letterbox hits open more than Solo... not as many people in a Solo Lave instance trying to come and go as there is in Open... so a non issue really.
Tweaking friendly fire could lead to abuse.... in Open, versus other players - not so much in Solo, don't tend to find many other "players" there

I love how you try to twist stuff so it "hurts solo/pve" all the time

 

[Roybe]

Quote Originally Posted by Roybe View Post
However, this is not how Open was designed to work. Mobius has no control over what people actually do within the group, other than remove them if they break the gentleman's agreement. This becomes problematic as the group has reached a size that Mobius does not know everyone within it. Added to his growing administration problems, he also is responsible for investigations, punishment, etc. to those that do not abide by the stated rules. Determining who did what in a case of 'he said, she said' is not my idea of fun gameplay.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Open has no gentleman's agreement on rules of play. Only people's suppostions and expectations of what they think will happen. Supposing or expecting that PvP happens because of some rule set, is not why PvP happens in Open. Open IS DBOBES vision of a 'cutthroat' galaxy, just as the private modes provide a sanctuary for those that do not want to be subjected to the violence and freedom that is provided in Open.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wrong on 'No gentlemen's agreement'. The group clearly states what is expected in the group and when. Regarding the size, people communicate with each other if there are social problems; and administering this is fine.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You trust people to much! People do not always do nice things to other people. It's not just about communication over social problems. Mobius has the only invite/kick/ban power in that group. Mobius will only continue to grow as long as he plays. He HAS to be concerned with 'getting it right'. Otherwise someone could force folks out, by just lying about someone. The possibility of this increases with the numbers of players involved. One or two bad decisions would hurt the group more than having a PvP party involved.

Also, I am not in any way attacking Private Group mode. Comparing this mode to Open and claiming that Private Groups run like this are the 'dream of DBOBE' is assuming a lot. The game is advertised as a cutthroat galaxy. Open is definitely cutthroat. So I see DBOBE's vision is working in Open, just as the Private modes are providing a safe haven for those that want less cut and throat in their game. Everyone really wins. Yes, there are some inequities for Community Goals between the various modes, that might, or might not be able to be adjusted. Yes, the logic of Private folks demanding more safety in Open is confusing, but overall, the game is providing people what they want, when they want it. Play your way is viable and fun for everyone.

 

[SteveLaw]

Well that was productive, address the language used but not the points made. Try addressing the post's content rather than the language used to forward the ideas.

I'm tired of being part of a group you attack and then complain about attacking you. I'm done with it.

 

[fademist]

It's a first step but one that's more detrimental to solo/pve players than anyone else. They've said the full intergalactic bounties won't take effect anyway with 1.3 so it's half baked. It's just like when they tried to add marked cargo in to 1.2 without the option to remove the mark.

Right now the crime update isn't going to help anything in open and it now means that when a solo or group player wants to pop on for a spot of farming in a res in the couple of hours they have free for a night, they accidentally hit a clean ship and they have to move to a completely different system to carry on playing.

They didn't even raise the bounty for a kill which would have been the main deterrent, even more so if it was only player kills that got the increased bounty so it wouldn't disrupt solo/group. I can wipe out someone for 15mil and get a 6g bounty, still . . .

Instead people are more interested in discussing how brutal hitting a ship at 101 speed will be because a couple of griefers in open at Lave have been ramming people. FD have them on video doing it and instead of stepping in and banning them to solo for a few weeks or at least giving a warning they're creating a whole new half baked game mechanic that will affect everyone regardless of mode.

This softly softly approach to griefers, exploiters and credit farmers needs to stop as it messes up the game for everyone.

From what i remember when u do anything illegal besides smuggling on FFE u end up dead anyway so is bad to go elsewhere? lol

- - - Updated - - -

I'm tired of being part of a group you attack and then complain about attacking you. I'm done with it.

they try another way now but will fail like the other tries

 

[Jorlin]

It's a first step but one that's more detrimental to solo/pve players than anyone else. They've said the full intergalactic bounties won't take effect anyway with 1.3 so it's half baked. It's just like when they tried to add marked cargo in to 1.2 without the option to remove the mark.

Right now the crime update isn't going to help anything in open and it now means that when a solo or group player wants to pop on for a spot of farming in a res in the couple of hours they have free for a night, they accidentally hit a clean ship and they have to move to a completely different system to carry on playing.

They didn't even raise the bounty for a kill which would have been the main deterrent, even more so if it was only player kills that got the increased bounty so it wouldn't disrupt solo/group. I can wipe out someone for 15mil and get a 6g bounty, still . . .

Instead people are more interested in discussing how brutal hitting a ship at 101 speed will be because a couple of griefers in open at Lave have been ramming people. FD have them on video doing it and instead of stepping in and banning them to solo for a few weeks or at least giving a warning they're creating a whole new half baked game mechanic that will affect everyone regardless of mode.

This softly softly approach to griefers, exploiters and credit farmers needs to stop as it messes up the game for everyone.

I, as a solo player, welcome the changes.
But i have to admit that i don't do RES farming.
I made my way to "dangerous" almost completely in CZ (yes, Lugh... but without the Battleship *g*)
So, i really can't talk about this matter.

I already commented on the "15mil and 6g bounty" part.

Ramming is not an issue for me, so no comment from me on this one too.
The "half baked game mechanic" is a first approach. I don't expect it to be perfect or that a perfect solution will be presented in the next few months.

It surely will not mess up my game... but since everyone has a different playstyle, it might for others, can't tell.

 

[Distance]

I'm tired of being part of a group you attack and then complain about attacking you. I'm done with it.

lol I'm not attacking anyone. I think these changes will do more to hurt pve players than solve any of the problems in open.

 

[Jockey79]

First of all, lose the 'tude dude, nowhere in my post did I claim to be an expert at group play.

By asserting your opinion as a fact, you did indeed imply you were an authority on what goes on in the Mobius Group - So I have every right to fact check and call you on it.

You got me, I've never even played mobius.

Well, you should not be commenting on what goes on in Mobius then.
To compare, if I sat here telling you that you were living your life wrong - knowing nothing about you or your life, you'd have " 'tude " towards me.

Simple rule, don't comment on something you know nothing about

You'll have to forgive me for thinking a mode that bans pvp doesn't have pvp in it. I don't know what I was thinking.

Who said they ban PvP at all?

Let me help you with this, they ban --- *non-consensual* PvP (as in, you don't ask permission, you don't force an interaction on someone)
Combat Warzones and *CONSENSUAL* PvP is fine. If 2 players (or more), want to move out of everyone elses way and beat the living daylights out of each other, as long as it does not interfere with anyone else (not part of it) and all invovled consent to it - then that is fine.

Second, it's pretty arrogant to assume....

From someone who just tried to tell me and others how a group you've never even been a part of works - wow, just wow .
I would answer the rest of your post.... but, wow.... the irony of that just hit me so hard I need breath of air!

 

[Jpotter]

My first (and only so far) bad PvP experience was this afternoon. I went to a couple of stations, and happened to get a 'Warzone' BB quest for the same Warzone area for three different BB quests. A kill 4, a kill 5, and a kill 7 contract - on top of it, I already knew where the conflict zone was so off I went to cash in.

I'm relatively new to the game - 3 weeks in and about a week into Cobra ownership. It's coming along, but no where near maxed out. When I frequent Warzone's so far, I've notice that all the human players tend to join one side and do a PvE experience. I'm not interesting in PvP at this time in a Warzone as nobody in PvP is flying Cobras or lower - just loaded with Pythons, Anacondas, and Vultures - I don't stand a chance against those unless it's AI controlled.

So - I head on over to the Warzone for a quick cash in on 7 kills. I enter, see one other real person in the zone, in a Vulture already engaged. I join his side and by the 1st kill I see he is gone, working on taking down a Python when I see he has rejoined and flipped sides. I immediately disengaged, max engines, and started heading out to see if he was following me. Yup, so hit the Frame drive. I enter the zone again and join his side again. Thinking maybe it wasn't the same person - got another 2 kills and here he comes back; definitely the same guy, and joins the opposite side as me and trying to kill me. I leave again and come back; join his side and say I'm not interested in PvP, I'm doing a contract. He leaves once more and is gone for a bit and I manage to get two more kills only to see he rejoined again and is boosting towards me on the opposite side again. I barely manage to miss his ram and was able to escape again. One the way out he is saying something like "yea run away" "Bye" "Just know I let you leave" Yea, if you let me leave why did you come back 4 time trying to fight. Really - a Vulture vs. Cobra - I'm running EVERYTIME. 400 boost speed with Maxed engines and a vulture can't keep up, you keep boosting keeping 400kp

So I had no choice but to go into Solo mode to finish the contracts........

 

[Jockey79]

My first (and only so far) bad PvP experience was this afternoon. I went to a couple of stations, and happened to get a 'Warzone' BB quest for the same Warzone area for three different BB quests. A kill 4, a kill 5, and a kill 7 contract - on top of it, I already knew where the conflict zone was so off I went to cash in.

I'm relatively new to the game - 3 weeks in and about a week into Cobra ownership. It's coming along, but no where near maxed out. When I frequent Warzone's so far, I've notice that all the human players tend to join one side and do a PvE experience. I'm not interesting in PvP at this time in a Warzone as nobody in PvP is flying Cobras or lower - just loaded with Pythons, Anacondas, and Vultures - I don't stand a chance against those unless it's AI controlled.

So - I head on over to the Warzone for a quick cash in on 7 kills. I enter, see one other real person in the zone, in a Vulture already engaged. I join his side and by the 1st kill I see he is gone, working on taking down a Python when I see he has rejoined and flipped sides. I immediately disengaged, max engines, and started heading out to see if he was following me. Yup, so hit the Frame drive. I enter the zone again and join his side again. Thinking maybe it wasn't the same person - got another 2 kills and here he comes back; definitely the same guy, and joins the opposite side as me and trying to kill me. I leave again and come back; join his side and say I'm not interested in PvP, I'm doing a contract. He leaves once more and is gone for a bit and I manage to get two more kills only to see he rejoined again and is boosting towards me on the opposite side again. I barely manage to miss his ram and was able to escape again. One the way out he is saying something like "yea run away" "Bye" "Just know I let you leave" Yea, if you let me leave why did you come back 4 time trying to fight. Really - a Vulture vs. Cobra - I'm running EVERYTIME. 400 boost speed with Maxed engines and a vulture can't keep up, you keep boosting keeping 400kp

So I had no choice but to go into Solo mode to finish the contracts........

But remember - Open mode is full of warm loving people who just want to hug you all the time
How could you be so mean and not give that player a cuddle, he (or she) was just lonely and wanted to be with you

lol

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Why aren't you kicking off about it? The people going to be harmed are solo/pve players who go too fast in to a station or accidentally shoot a clean ship in a res. Neither of the changes do anything to fix the problems in open or the problems with crime in general over all of the modes.

I personally didn't see that as a problem. One of the reasons I avoid open is jackassery like whizzing into stations while boosting. I treat docking as though any pilot treats his craft. There are no flaps or such, but speed is reduced to landing speed with landing gear deployed as soon as I get permission to dock. To me, it's just more immersive to emulate real world care of aircraft which I would imagine will extend to spacecraft if we get that far.

 

[Dave1235]

My first (and only so far) bad PvP experience was this afternoon. I went to a couple of stations, and happened to get a 'Warzone' BB quest for the same Warzone area for three different BB quests. A kill 4, a kill 5, and a kill 7 contract - on top of it, I already knew where the conflict zone was so off I went to cash in.

I'm relatively new to the game - 3 weeks in and about a week into Cobra ownership. It's coming along, but no where near maxed out. When I frequent Warzone's so far, I've notice that all the human players tend to join one side and do a PvE experience. I'm not interesting in PvP at this time in a Warzone as nobody in PvP is flying Cobras or lower - just loaded with Pythons, Anacondas, and Vultures - I don't stand a chance against those unless it's AI controlled.

So - I head on over to the Warzone for a quick cash in on 7 kills. I enter, see one other real person in the zone, in a Vulture already engaged. I join his side and by the 1st kill I see he is gone, working on taking down a Python when I see he has rejoined and flipped sides. I immediately disengaged, max engines, and started heading out to see if he was following me. Yup, so hit the Frame drive. I enter the zone again and join his side again. Thinking maybe it wasn't the same person - got another 2 kills and here he comes back; definitely the same guy, and joins the opposite side as me and trying to kill me. I leave again and come back; join his side and say I'm not interested in PvP, I'm doing a contract. He leaves once more and is gone for a bit and I manage to get two more kills only to see he rejoined again and is boosting towards me on the opposite side again. I barely manage to miss his ram and was able to escape again. One the way out he is saying something like "yea run away" "Bye" "Just know I let you leave" Yea, if you let me leave why did you come back 4 time trying to fight. Really - a Vulture vs. Cobra - I'm running EVERYTIME. 400 boost speed with Maxed engines and a vulture can't keep up, you keep boosting keeping 400kp

So I had no choice but to go into Solo mode to finish the contracts........

I am glad you had your wits about you and survived, a decent vulture against a cobra is not a fair fight, even A rated, unless you are a really good pilot.

Take a look at the Mobius group, its PVE with a little PVP if you want (with consent) https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38362

7600 other players that like interaction, some like a bit of PVP which is allowed in combat zones (but you can't switch like happened to you tonight).

I think your experience proves yet again that FD were correct from day one to include the ability to change modes.