The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

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Talking about not being familiar with software development...ED is not 32bit. :rolleyes:

How ridiculous. Start E:D and have a look at the task manager.
You just made my day ;-).

This 32>64bits (AKA "let's pretend a fix for an engine flaw is an original feature") is all smoke and mirrors just like ships' polycount. Looks like the bigger the counter is, the more satisfied is the cash flow.

The engine was supposed to be ported to 64bit when Crysis 1 arrived. However, the porting was not completed, CryTek did not do any R&D over the last few years (and got into financial trouble for that), so CIG now has to do it. Same with polycount..just look at the models we regularly find in games, they are really bad compared to what is achieveable even with aged technology such as my rig.

How can't this not to be a fail? They promised do that associating with a new million dollar achievement and won't make that, and yes, it is a lie because Roberts always told that all stretch goals that they add, they only were added after knowing if it was possible or not to make them and evaluating the cost... and that is clearly not the case.

The face technology was made and is now used, so the stretch goal is achieved. The point of adding community faces is just a ginmick, and it was stated that they would do that only if that would prove feasible. Without having introduced the face technology at that point, it is fairly hard to predict how it would turn out. Yes, you can pay a lot of money for prototypes, feasibility studies and consulting and make a big project plan for a subset of a stretch goal, thus being able to predict more accurate, but I feel that shouldn't be the focus of game development ;-).

They just did what Molineux said recently:

Just compare the current AC alpha with what Molineux did. You might notice some differences in technology ;-).
Meaning: You are comparing apples and oranges.

Apparently Chris Roberts is unfamiliar too.

Oh, but that's the point of the whole endeavour. In gaming, almost everybody is unfamiliar with software development. The whole gaming industry lags about a decade behind the rest of the software industry. They don't know how to make use of current technology, they have no clue of software engineering, they are not creative (just look at home many titles have a number at the end) and they are not used to cater to their audience.

So while CIG now has to bridge the 10 year gap, combining game development with modern IT while also researching technical and business processes, having to devise a new universe with actual creativity, many things won't be smooth. But in the end, no one realistically expects that.

And again, if you think there is so much money in spare that somebody could really get rich from, just have a look at the number of their employees and compare with the usual IT salaries. Fact is: there isn't.
 
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Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
How ridiculous. Start E:D and have a look at the task manager.
You just made my day ;-).

It's currently a 32bit executable, but that's irrelevant as you can still use 64bit datatypes in a 32bit application with no issues, it's only when you need to access more than 4GB or RAM you need a 64bit executable. Thankfully Cobra is already 64bit ready and one of the developers (can't remember who) says they already have a 64bit build target that they use internally. In fact the Mac beta that is currently running is only being provided as a 64bit build.

They haven't released it to the public for 2 reasons:

1. Elite doesn't need more than 4GB of memory currently (it actually uses < 1GB currently)
2. There are downsides to a 64bit executable, such as pointers taking up twice as much memory, the way cache space is used, etc.

Needing to move to 64bit precision in CryEngine is only a problem for CIG because they selected a game engine that's specifically designed for small levelled/zoned FPS games, and it's not flexible enough to do what they need without this major overhaul.
 
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It's currently a 32bit executable, but that's irrelevant as you can still use 64bit datatypes in a 32bit application with no issues, it's only when you need to access more than 4GB or RAM you need a 64bit executable. Thankfully Cobra is already 64bit ready and one of the developers (can't remember who) says they already have a 64bit build target that they use internally. In fact the Mac beta that is currently running is only being provided as a 64bit build.

They haven't released it to the public for 2 reasons:

1. Elite doesn't need more than 4GB of memory currently (it actually uses < 1GB currently)
2. There are downsides to a 64bit executable, such as pointers taking up twice as much memory, etc.

First of all, if the CPU is not running in 64bit mode, the additional registers etc. are not available. And if the executable is 32bit, it will run in 32bit. You also have the problem that you need additional compatibility libraries, as the executable cannot interact with the standard 64bit. So not running 64bit by default is really, really tedious. On the other hand, the additional memory used for pointers etc., is of no concern in the real world.

Plus, you don't need 64bit to access more than 4GB of RAM. On x86 plattform, the OS can access more than 4GB physical RAM via PAE. While a 32bit process is limited to 4GB virtual memory, the number of processes per application is not limited. So your 32bit application can spawn multiple processes and make use of more than 4GB RAM. Data between the processes is then handled via the usual IPC mechanisms.


Needing to move to 64bit precision in CryEngine is only a problem for CIG because they selected a game engine that's specifically designed for small levelled/zoned FPS games, and it's not flexible enough to do what they need without this major overhaul.

As I said: the engine should have been 64bit precision 10 years ago. It's not "CIG's problem", it's indicative of a gaming industry that arbitrarily sticks to small levels/zones and has done so for far too long. We could have had games with bigger levels and more fidelity a long time ago - the tech has been there. There was just nobody INSIDE the gaming industry that knew how to do it.
 

Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
First of all, if the CPU is not running in 64bit mode, the additional registers etc. are not available. And if the executable is 32bit, it will run in 32bit. You also have the problem that you need additional compatibility libraries, as the executable cannot interact with the standard 64bit. So not running 64bit by default is really, really tedious. On the other hand, the additional memory used for pointers etc., is of no concern in the real world.

Plus, you don't need 64bit to access more than 4GB of RAM. On x86 plattform, the OS can access more than 4GB physical RAM via PAE. While a 32bit process is limited to 4GB virtual memory, the number of processes per application is not limited. So your 32bit application can spawn multiple processes and make use of more than 4GB RAM. Data between the processes is then handled via the usual IPC mechanisms.

I didn't say registers, I said datatypes.

And 64bit has other downsides, for example load and store is slower than 32bit. It's not a magic bullet that will mysteriously make your game faster.

There's some other information around on the forum by Ben Parry (Graphics Programmer on Elite): https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40251&p=746986&viewfull=1#post746986

There's more scattered around too, as this has been discussed to death for the last couple of years.

Regardless, currently FDEV are releasing a 32bit executable (on Windows only, Mac is 64bit) as they see no benefit in releasing a 64bit one, and I'm pretty sure they know a lot more than us about how the respective builds perform and the pros and cons of each.

As I said: the engine should have been 64bit precision 10 years ago. It's not "CIG's problem", it's indicative of a gaming industry that arbitrarily sticks to small levels/zones and has done so for far too long. We could have had games with bigger levels and more fidelity a long time ago - the tech has been there. There was just nobody INSIDE the gaming industry that knew how to do it.

I said it was "a problem for CIG" not it's "CIG's problem".
 
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AFAIK the facial capture technology exists, so it's not a lie or a fail. However, they stated that it was too much of an effort to integrate the fans faces. That's not a big deal however (if you're not part of that selfie culture).
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It has already outdone most of the gaming industry, including E:D, which is stuck on 32bit. Based on that, it's already a success.
That has also positive effects on hardware sales, many people have finally a reason to upgrade.

People unfamiliar with software development seem to underestimate both the effort required for R&D as well as the money needed (especially in terms of salaries).

How has it outdone most of the industry??? The only thing it has done so far is amp up the graphics to extreme yet the gameplay is deep as a puddle. It boils down to a point and click game like an fps. If we are talking about the executable, why does it matter? It's not like it makes anything that much faster. CIG has yet ways to go before the engine is 64 bit so that they can utilize much bigger spaces instead of instance rooms. ED is already using 64 bit in space. CIG's actual gameplay of how the PU will play will be shown towards the end of the year. It's when people will finally see what features will make the cut, how they will interact and if the game will actually deliver on all it has promised. Right now, all we got is hearsay from the developers of what could be not what is.

What reason is there to upgrade? I mean there have been plenty of games out there that push graphics and people have always been upgrading their hardware to keep up. It's not like CIG is all of a sudden doing something magical that requires people to upgrade their specs as people have been doing it for over a decade to keep up with new graphics that come out.

Also nobody here is under-estimating the level of R&D to develop your own engine let iterate on a 3rd party engine you did not make yourself. FYI there are engines out there that were already 64 bit before they settled on cryengine.
 
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jcrg99

Banned
The face technology was made and is now used, so the stretch goal is achieved. The point of adding community faces is just a ginmick, and it was stated that they would do that only if that would prove feasible. Without having introduced the face technology at that point, it is fairly hard to predict how it would turn out. Yes, you can pay a lot of money for prototypes, feasibility studies and consulting and make a big project plan for a subset of a stretch goal, thus being able to predict more accurate, but I feel that shouldn't be the focus of game development ;-).

You never heard about advertising laws, have you?

Just compare the current AC alpha with what Molineux did. You might notice some differences in technology ;-).
And you think that it helps in your case? If Molineux is not able to release his promises in things that are with less graphical fidelity when adding them just for the sake to motivate money and clueless about his feasibility, how possibly you could think that the Star Citizen is a better case, when it is going to a much higher level of graphical fidelity in a MMO scenario? No. It just make even more unbelieavable that they will accomplish.

Oh, but that's the point of the whole endeavour. In gaming, almost everybody is unfamiliar with software development. The whole gaming industry lags about a decade behind the rest of the software industry. They don't know how to make use of current technology, they have no clue of software engineering, they are not creative (just look at home many titles have a number at the end) and they are not used to cater to their audience.

So while CIG now has to bridge the 10 year gap, combining game development with modern IT while also researching technical and business processes, having to devise a new universe with actual creativity, many things won't be smooth. But in the end, no one realistically expects that.

And again, if you think there is so much money in spare that somebody could really get rich from, just have a look at the number of their employees and compare with the usual IT salaries. Fact is: there isn't.

So... you are basically saying that people in the game industry does not have the skills (which is an absolute falacy, since there are plenty of teams more competent than CIG out there and delivering more than what they did in the same period of time), but earn just as people from the software industry?
LOL

You have a curious knowledge about the reality of the game industry, mainly in terms of salaries.

And most importantly... you have a curious perception of "the number of employees" that CIG claims to have. If you really have all this knowledge you would not jump to such poor-level conclusion based in marketing tales... You would not be so naive... We all know that CIG don't keep all them working at the same time. We all know that CIG has as the huge majority in this "count" that they announce for marketing purposes, thirdy parties and temporary work force (both cheaper). We all know that many of them are not even "developers". And you can be sure that they are counting even who already left, when stating in interviews such numbers.

And any person that really knows the game industry will know that you won't earn the best salaries if working for Cloud Imperium Games... instead, you will earn some of the lowest, since Roberts is the kind of guy that convinces everyone based in a good speech of "hey man, accept the challenge", and not by financial earnings.

Why do you think that the majority of people that moved there had in some form, a "past with Roberts", or were unemployed due recent lay offs, or were newbies winning a chance to learn about game development or the chance to work with their childhood hero?

I think that is really hilarious when I see this people claiming "oh, CIG has 300 employees, all top professionals, how much do you think that they cost" blablabla... Clueless people.

Have no idea of the reality of the game industry and most importantly, the reality of CIG itself, who does not even deny that took advantage of people that were laid off and in more than an occasion had one or two of their major leaders calling that they went there to the challenge or due their friendship with Roberts, not because a salary. No offense. But its just hilarious.

That's why will be so easy to Roberts to convince that "spend every dime in the development"... Because their public is simply... clueless and sometimes ignores even the things that CIG reveals in their own interviews and shows, accidentally or not, or simply, avoid to analyse what implies many things that they say.

He just needs to say... "yes.. I spent all the money"... and they will believe... while in fact, he saved a lot, hiring newbies, friends, cheap thirdy parties, cheap actors, because you only need and spend more money in a development, when you actually work in respect of a schedule, that if you do not respect, you don't receive any dime more and got your project cancelled.

Then, you need to go and only search for better and more productive professionals... while Roberts, can save a lot, training newbies and that even helps in his situation, considering that he naturally provokes more delays, and as more delays he got, more money he continues to milk from his backers with the ship sales...

and he knows that they are easily deluded by whatever he writes in a letter, regardless if it will contradict some previous letter. And yes, he knows that his game already passed from the point of no return and will "crash and burn" for the perception of the majority of the public that he was targetting, including those who already paid him...

that's why you see he embraces more and more who believes on him with blind faith, not really caring with game stats or any other number, except money gathered from a few... because it's his only hope for income... because nobody else really believes on him or on this project anymore, except his most excited fans (who contribute with the creation of additional accounts in their website to make their numbers raising)... all them highly invested and proud fans, which are not more than 5k-10k individuals...

obviously he has some hope that can use a good part of the money saved to make a stronger marketing campaign in the end, in the hope to get those that never heard about SC... but with internet and all, and so many years of cash grabbing... I highly doubt that until that point, basically everyone of the "target public" did not hear about it and already made their minds about really taking the effort to upgrade their machines to play a problematic game, while there are others that even not having so "fancy" level, delivers more fun than SC ever will be capable to match, more quickly, because always will take longer for SC to make those shinny little things that nobody cares in the end of the day, or at least, care much less than care about real playable features.

Did you see Far Cry or Crysis stealing the fidelity of Call of Duty or Battlefield? If you understand that, you will understand what I tried to say. Or shinny RPG's stealing fidelity of Warcraft? No pal... it's not so easy. People are just deluding themselves, both CIG and their fans, that "graphical fidelity" is the answer for everything and is all that people needs. It's cool... but hardly will be what will keep the fidelity or steal in definitive, the fidelity of other people. At least, in general terms.

Not all is the end of the world. By the way that they are doing, and the public that they gathered, even that tiny, they will be able to keep themselves, even with a failed game, with eternal slow development and features going to the vaporware scneario, that only a few proud fans care, by offering ship sales after release.

After all, those people are not really caring if 1% or 100% will end released. For some reason they like the "game of buying ships in jpeg format"... But still... will have the reputation of Piranha Games and never will be able to produce anything of more value using crowd-funding again (unless they change their names) and never will make even shadow to any Space Sim indie game that comes out.

It's sad. They just followed the wrong strategy. They would have more chances if probably had hired better professional to deal with their marketing plans, sales strategies, etc, focused to release a core of the game earlier, instead adding impossible promises, thirsty by a easy-mode to make money. The short-sighted, proud with zero experience personas that they put in charge of all that, and the own celebrity complex of CR, basically ruined something that could have a chance of success, if they worked with the feet in the ground, just like Frontier does.

It's good for the genre that Frontier is doing something in the right way, following reasonable steps and working without making customers went crazy in their investiment, and this way, not raising expectations too high (of everyone, not just of them). Because if they were not in the play here, the genre probably will not reborn, but will be dead for good, due the Roberts attitude. It already got a bad rep with publishers exactly due his past attitude... now... the same sentiment would be transfered for everyone... not just publishers... and I don't doubt that was already something that caused harm today... I highly doubt that any Space Sim will find resources through crowd-funding anymore, unless if asking a not anything beyond 500k (And still will be hard). Roberts is basically burning the genre as more he fails to deliver and more he milks people (at the same time).
 
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My opinion. SC scope is huge. It a large game production.
A large studio making a complex game.
Producing games take many years. Producing games that push limit push the tech. Go where no game went before takes some years.
Looking at other games the more un inspirated sequel production like COD moved from 2 years to 3 years.
RaGe a 6 year development due to the mega texture R&D incorporated.
Now as DX11.2 tiled resources mip map avaible due to virtual gpu memory.

CiG is at 2 years for small budged game you could expect a game released example E: D.
The bigger thing go on for another 2.

To fail it need to be canceld or when released. Those gamers who buy after a extensive review won't want to buy it because it head become a bad game. But that posible future is one posibility it could end in.

But now they are producing.

So the fact is it aint over till the fat lady sings.
For your anti CiG folks there is saying.
Don't sell the hide of the beer ( CiG ) untill you kill it.

It alive and going on.

The future is always unclear. And making games and investing in it is taking risk. Games do fail and get canceld.

But is is not a failure.

Also mouse is extreemly important why. Dogfighting is just one type of thing you can do in this genre merging thing.
Most other things to do depend totaly on mouse.
Also not every gamer interrested in CiG is into dogfighting.
It is what they show first.
 
Same with polycount..just look at the models we regularly find in games, they are really bad compared to what is achieveable even with aged technology such as my rig.
More doesn't imply better, you can't measure quality through polycount.

It's quite a joke to see CIG waste time and money modelling physically accurate toilet flush system of ships, when at the end ingame we're just pew-pewing a dot covered by UI elements to indicate where to shoot.

Yes your rig is craving for a diarrhea of polygons and complex shaders, but the question is WHERE to spend all these polys in an open space? In the space itself, the number of simultaneous npc/players or nuts and bolts behind the pilot's seat?

468px-Heavy_rain_02.jpg

"Graphical fidelity", meh art, terrible gameplay.

1293712469_journey_ps3.jpg

Low-poly, work of art.

theorder5.jpg

Impressive technology, shallow gameplay.

darksiders-2-review-shot-1.jpg

Highly stylised, wide open world.

Yes, art, sacrosanct "graphical fidelity" sells. But we're talking about games. Art must serve, tote the game. Art shouldn't castrate the gameplay.
 
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Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.
 
Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.

They also removed my post quoting some of your ridiculous comments.
Removing the tin-foil hat might give you a more realistic view as to why they removed the antagonistic posts.
 
Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.

The thread isn't about comparing Elite with Star Citizen, it's about Star Citizen; that's why they get removed.
 

Mike Evans

Designer- Elite: Dangerous
Frontier
Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.

Frontier Staff don't delete posts, the Mods do and only because they're breaking a forum rule that you agreed too, not because they don't like your arguments or discussion. What a ridiculous thing to think. So long as you're not insulting others, trying to use foul language or breaking any of the other forum rules you're free to discuss your opinions as much as you want as people have been doing quite successfully, especially in this thread for a very long time.
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
Frontier Staff don't delete posts, the Mods do and only because they're breaking a forum rule that you agreed too, not because they don't like your arguments or discussion. What a ridiculous thing to think. So long as you're not insulting others, trying to use foul language or breaking any of the other forum rules you're free to discuss your opinions as much as you want as people have been doing quite successfully, especially in this thread for a very long time.

This is correct in every detail.

Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.
This isn't.
 
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[...] the engine should have been 64bit precision 10 years ago. It's not "CIG's problem", it's indicative of a gaming industry that arbitrarily sticks to small levels/zones and has done so for far too long. We could have had games with bigger levels and more fidelity a long time ago - the tech has been there. There was just nobody INSIDE the gaming industry that knew how to do it.
Plus, the gamers didn't ask (read: demand) any larger levels/zones/maps. The power of the customer is always an important factor, and therefore also the lack of it. That goes for every consumer product, not just games.

What Chris Roberts have done is make a game no one, or very few, asked for. And that goes beyond the 64-bit precision issue. Star Citizen's scope, complex gameplay, multiple genre mix, and more, shows how innovative it is. Some of us have wanted this for a long time and haven't played other games because of their shortcomings, and now many other people realize this is something they want too. I think this realization will spread through the gaming community like wild fire once more content becomes available to try out in Star Citizen.

See also: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=57576&p=2116823&viewfull=1#post2116823
 
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CiG is at 2 years for small budged game you could expect a game released example E: D.
The bigger thing go on for another 2.
Elite Dangerous has been in development since 2011 (3.5 to 4 years), with the in-house Cobra engine (used by ED; designed from the ground up for an eventual "Elite 4") being in constant development since 1998.

CIG are within their schedule of 3-4 years, assuming Early-Alpha of Persistent Universe is released end-2015
 
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What Chris Roberts have done is make a game no one, or very few, asked for. And that goes beyond the 64-bit precision issue. Star Citizen's scope, complex gameplay, multiple genre mix, and more, shows how innovative it is.

You're talking as if he's made the game already, when in fact he hasn't even made a fraction of the game he claims he wants to make and ~3 years have already past.

He most certainly hasn't made anything complex at all.
All gameplay we currently have is very very simplistic... including the flight model.
There's decades old flight sims with multitudes of more complexity in their flight model.
 
CIG are within their schedule of 3-4 years, assuming Early-Alpha of Persistent Universe is released end-2015

I don't think they've ever been "within their schedule". ALL their releases have been delayed.
Their project is so ambitious it was apparent that they weren't going to finish it in 4 years.
 
Elite Dangerous has been in development since 2011 (3.5 to 4 years), with the in-house Cobra engine (used by ED; designed from the ground up for an eventual "Elite 4") being in constant development since 1998.

Nah. If you cast your mind back to the original pitch for KickStarter it was clear they had no presentable work to show. Some skunkworks had been done prior to kickstarter but actual development started afterwards, this has been confirmed quite a few times by many people at FDEV.

CIG are within their schedule of 3-4 years, assuming Early-Alpha of Persistent Universe is released end-2015

I will be extremely surprised if this happens. It's a shame William Hill aren't taking bets..
 
Frontier is removing posts from this thread that present arguments defending CIG and the SC development and comparing it to the less ambitious Elite Dangerous. It appears to me that Frontier is set out to make SC look bad.

It therefore is no longer possible to have a well-grounded discussion about the topic with each side presenting their arguments as those are deleted. For anyone interested in continueing the discussion, PM me.

The mods have removed plenty of my pro-ED posts. You are factually incorrect.
 
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