The Star Citizen Thread v 4

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Max...jcrg.

Please let it drop whatever it is at this stage. It's irritating watching you guys argue with your walls of text that most people here can't be bothered reading. You clearly will never agree fellas please accept this...its a good thread here with the collated info and GAME discussion. Please don't get this thread locked over and over again. It's too interesting for that nonsense!

Love you guys :)
 

jcrg99

Banned
Using logic, the 2.0 update (ofc with the 100M) being reported on the media that from the ones i saw, have a reach of dozens of millions via media > social networking, obviously results in new backers. Saying otherwise would be insane.

If been reported by the media helped games, why so many failed on Kickstarter or failed in general, even when reported by media?
You could be right, but using your same expressions and point of view here, that is just your conspiracy theory and your "love" (instead hatred) to make SC better than it is and that nothing can affect it because "the game answers" (which is hard to believe, since a lot of reports publicized by people tells about a total broken/unplayable and rarely accessible game, at least for a great number of people, which would be hard to convince people to pledge/pay for it, when reading such feedbacks - usually available in the comment sections of these news too).

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am just trying to prove how you use of some logic for yourself and then, ignore your own logic when you are dealing with a dissent opinion/fact demonstrated, sometimes with stronger evidences than what you demonstrated here and assumed that it could be an answer for my question: "Proof?"

This not proof. This is your biased opinion. Do you have the numbers of CIG stating from what hands came this money? That would be the proof. And its very easy to achieve. The question is... why you don't have these numbers in your hand?
 
I backed in Jul 2013.

Anyone have a link to the old TOS?
All i can recommend is look for one archive.is of the TOS page to contest, they do give refunds, doesn't mean you don't have to work for them.
I had similar experiences with almost all refunds i requested that go after the period required by law.
 
So it's Seems like the CIG start with more "aggressive" approach considering backers that asking for refunds....that's bad really bad.....
 

jcrg99

Banned
I backed in Jul 2013.

Anyone have a link to the old TOS?

What MAX said is not correct. The TOS change is just one argument that can be used. Another arguments that can be used includes the deceptive advertising that CIG used and that convinced you to pledge and remaining supporting them for a long time.

For example, the idea that they promised to deliver the full game on or before the estimated delivery date. They didn't respect that and shown no respect for that. It was a choice that they made. They were not obligated to take longer and their public statements are very clear to prove this. That letter of CR for example, when he went back from making the MOCAP for Squadron 42, clearly is a proof that they chosen, instead been a requirement having to take longer. A Business decisions contradicting the deal with the consumer.

You can also claim about the polls, which should be considered illegal, because decided the fate of the project. You did not sign to be part of a club. It's an individual deal between you and the company. Besides, you were probably mislead by the company, as many who voted yes for more stretch goals, to believe that more money would mean a game fully released faster.

All these deceptive claims are against the law, and you can obviously, to point them the FTC page regarding deceptive claims to show how they failed with their legal obligations, in other words, morally they were dishonest and disrespected you... legally, they broke the law:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/advertising-marketing-internet-rules-road

"The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to: mislead consumers and
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service."


Under these basis - because its the law and they disrespected (and it does not matter when you pledged, because you always will find deceptive claims repeatedly that would mislead you to pledge, even in recent occasions, because they simply refuse to assume their legal responsibility in the name of easy money) - they have no exit but give you the refund.

And after you sent them an email with such statements they can't do not answer or answering deny, if you know that I mean. Because that would let them without any defense in any court, or with any press repercution.

And as far as I learned, CIG won't challenge you to go to a court. The own public statement of Roberts was that he did not want to fight with people, remember? It was publicized in an article to make he and CIG sound honest, reliable. So, denying refunds even when you show to understand your rights as a consumer and demonstrate that they screwed with their legal responsibilities, would be a suicide for them of bad repercutions, specially with those media who reported the statements of Roberts.

And thanks to show another proof of the bad faith attitude of CIG in public. That is brave and that is recommended by FTC itself. So, you shouldn't be afraid and who attack you for that just will reveal to be a blind fanboy without credibility. And that settles any discussion that people loves to claim that there was no proof of their bad faith. There is no case. No wrong doing.

Of course there is.
 
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What MAX said is not correct. The TOS change is just one argument that can be used. Another arguments that can be used includes the deceptive advertising that CIG used and that convinced you to pledge and remaining supporting them for a long time.

For example, the idea that they promised to deliver the full game on or before the estimated delivery date. They didn't respect that and shown no respect for that.

Duh, but that's exactly the ONLY piece of concrete info you can use on a refund. The Old TOS "12 Months" rule over the ETA that was known was the 2014 at the time of his pledge. Quite simple.
Everything else is a loop game that won't result on anything positive and can be easily disputed.
 
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jcrg99

Banned
Duh, but that's exactly the ONLY piece of concrete info you can use on a refund. The Old TOS "12 Months" rule over the ETA that was known was the 2014 at the time of his pledge. Quite simple.
Everything else is a loop game that won't result on anything positive and can be easily disputed.

The deceptive advertising of CIG, how illegal was their use of polls considering the contract, how they did not use of good faith to deliver on or before the estimate delivery date, considering their own public statements proving the breach in the contract by their actions are very concrete. So concrete as that the illegal change in the TOS, which transformed that clause in a deceptive claim too (and that is what made it illegal, since changing the TOS by itself wouldn't be, but changing in the way that was changed ends to be).

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...net-rules-road

"The Federal Trade Commission Act allows the FTC to act in the interest of all consumers to prevent deceptive and unfair acts or practices. In interpreting Section 5 of the Act, the Commission has determined that a representation, omission or practice is deceptive if it is likely to: mislead consumers and
affect consumers' behavior or decisions about the product or service."


It's the law my friend. How difficult is for you to understand the statement above?
 
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The deceptive advertising of CIG, how illegal was their use of polls considering the contract, hwo they did not use of good faith to deliver on or before the estimate delivery date, considering their own public statements are very concrete. So or more concrete that the illegal change in the TOS, which transformed that clause in a deceptive claim too.

No it's not, please, i worked on Marketing for almost one year, it's all about dodging regulations to how far can we go so it's not illegal, it's business, it's only discus-sable and opinion based if it is. Also the TOS change is not illegal, it falls into 2 different boxes, change them with or without warning their costumers gives on this case, the backers, more or less power to contest it, on this case, more.
 

jcrg99

Banned
Well CIG denied my request for a refund.



So you wanted proof that CIG denies refunds, here you go.

Oh! Those people have a really bad lawyer. They even proven that did not use of good faith to deliver ON or BEFORE the estimated delivery date, which is their deal in the first place and nothing else matters, and how they breach their contract through the use of polls, in their own answer to you!!!

Quoting them:
"While a substantive part of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed due to expansion of Star Citizen’s scope. This expansion is a result of the community’s declared desire to have the initial release version of the game developed to a much greater depth than contemplated originally upon start of the campaign. It is inherent to the nature of crowdfunding that such an adjustment to the project may occur."

So, here you have your answer. Just remind them that you did not sign for a club, but instead made an individual deal between you and CIG, and as they clearly claimed above, they expanded the scope and that is what caused the delays. Expanding a scope based in a club decision, not individual decisions, meaning that it would be only given a green light to they pursuit the expansion if they had 100% of yes votes. 1 NO vote should mean not expanding the game, if you know what I mean.

Besides, you can also remind them how they mislead you and other people with claims when asking these votes for expansion, claims that if they had more money, things would come faster and in any moment presented to the public in their statements the negative side effect (instead, denying it).


Just answer that and you will get your refunds, because when companies break the law, it does not matter any TOS. Ironically, you will be getting your refund still based in their own clauses too.

But they broke advertising laws with their attitude and now, with this answer are trying to defraud you, trusting that you could be clueless about law matters and consumer rights or even basic contract understanding, which, let's be fair, the CIG Contract is a joke, bad writen and without too much weight in any court due his party of contradictory/deceptive clauses.

And don't worry with Mr. Max. I know what I am talking about. You are not the first person who I help to get a refund. If they still deny, they are totally screwed. They just try hard to deny, because they act in bad faith as its clear to keep people's money. Most of people probably quit to ask when receiving this kind of bogus answer, due their own ignorance about the happenings of this project and basic statements of the law (made for the general public to understand, not for lawyers only).
 
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No it's not, please, i worked on Marketing for almost one year, it's all about dodging regulations to how far can we go so it's not illegal, it's business, it's only discus-sable and opinion based if it is. Also the TOS change is not illegal, it falls into 2 different boxes, change them with or without warning their costumers gives on this case, the backers, more or less power to contest it, on this case, more.

What CIG are doing is not good business.

I will give an example that happened just last week. So I purchased a steam cleaner (this one in fact http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G00BTEA/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687762&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0000DF0RB&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0VFW26GBXQ03WWVBN47Y)

Well the second time I used it steam was coming out of the pressure gauge. So I called them up (the steamer's company not Amazon), and a costumer rep picked up the phone (no machine at any time), I explained my problem and gave its serial number. Her response was "well that's not right", and with out me asking for anything, said they would email me a pre-paid UPS label, and when I dropped it off I was to send her the tracking number, and they would send me a new one. So I dropped it off and sent the tracking number, took 15min before she sent me a response with the invoice for the new order. Got it yesterday, not only is it new, but its the new model of that steamer.

There are good companies that stand behind their work, then there are companies like CIG that only care about the short term money and nothing for costumer satisfaction.

Here is a video of Sandi admitting they are milking the current backers (go to 9:25 if the link does not work)

[video=youtube;UXGsz0ZoduY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXGsz0ZoduY&feature=youtu.be&t=9m23s[/video]
 
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I will give an example that happened just last week. So I purchased a steam cleaner

Here is a video of Sandi admitting they are milking the current backers (go to 9:25 if the link does not work)

Refunds outside the law period are always complicated. When i Pre-Ordered one game, not only the game got delayed after for months, from sudden they dropped one game feature that was something i was looking for. I wasn't happy, i asked for a refund, they denied it, it has like a wall of around 20 Emails pointing the obvious because when i bought that feature was promised and it was dropped until they refunded me.

Not sure if you been trough something similar but it's nothing out of the normal when this happens, it's up to us to be smart enough to work around it and make our points, no company wants to refund costumers, i can only imagine this is even stronger on something like a crowdfunded game. Go around the points @jcrg99 makes can get the company make a stand, that they will not refund you and force you to scale to legal. So go around the TOS on this case is the safest bet because it's quite simple from the point they changed them without warning you of so.

Also about the video, she admits they give the backer community something part of the community wants: More stuff to pledge for. The return of LTI Ships, the return of exclusive limited ship sales, etc... I don't blame them for give them ways to accept the money as some want to keep pledging for the project.
 
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Refunds outside the law period are always complicated. When i Pre-Ordered one game, not only the game got delayed after for months, from sudden they dropped one game feature that was something i was looking for. I wasn't happy, i asked for a refund, they denied it, it has like a wall of around 20 Emails pointing the obvious because when i bought that feature was promised and it was dropped until they refunded me.

Not sure if you been trough something similar but it's nothing out of the normal when this happens, it's up to us to be smart enough to work around it and make our points, no company wants to refund costumers, i can only imagine this is even stronger on something like a crowdfunded game. Go around the points @jcrg99 makes can get the company make a stand, that they will not refund you and force you to scale to legal. So go around the TOS on this case is the safest bet because it's quite simple from the point they changed them without warning you of so.

Also about the video, she admits they give the backer community something part of the community wants: More stuff to pledge for. The return of LTI Ships, the return of exclusive limited ship sales, etc... I don't blame them for give them ways to accept the money as some want to keep pledging for the project.

Well as long as people keep defending bad companies, bad company will keep trying to get away with shady dealings.
 
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jcrg99

Banned
"While a substantive part of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed due to expansion of Star Citizen’s scope."


Now... considering this statement. CIG is claiming that you have a "substantive part of the promised gameplay" and they acknowledge that "some" game elements has been delayed. Questions:

1-) Do you agree? Have you a substantive part of the promised gameplay? Can people now, stop with the "I am the neutral supportive guy that wants SC to succeed" standard speech and, seriously, still defend this attitude of CIG here? Are you still believe that they are honest after reading this?

2-) And from what you have (substantial... really?). Tell me.... Could you find a statement where Roberts promised instead to deliver a game complete and working, or any statement indicating that, he would deliver whatever broken mess, unfinished, empty prototype, missing all the features that would make Star Citizen, the game that was promised? And how this reality check, of the official answer of CIG, matches with their advertising?

3-) But in the case CIG is right here, and this is just another of my "conspiracy theories", so, at this case, can you give us a feedback about how the economy works in CIG, how is to be a trader, a bounty hunter, a pirate, how is to be in a capital ship, landing on planets? And how was to explore... at least 20 of the 100 systems promised? Or how has been working the C&C feature? Or the "enhanced alpha"? How that worked?
 
What CIG did it it was clearly FALSE ADVERTISING or to call it simple LIES so it is a bit ironic when some ppl. trying to defend them,no point to twist the reality and try to find excuses for something that was so obvious and all of us remember CR broken promises and estimate dates of game delivery...
 
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