The Star Citizen Thread v5

[SuperG]

So this demo is fake? Me thinks this very not common production with few studio s where we know there is a demo , tech R&D and campains etc.
It make sense to me that each module and studio could have there own branch or few.
A demo is a production on its own with its q&A path and testing and code freeze split as such from the maincode.
SQ42
PU
PG
Engine team
Demo
Etc
Could be al branch offs
And main branch.
So there is lot hidden
We see 3 branches.
Trailers for Sq42
Public alfa part
Conventions demo.
Development branches where each working hour changes are commited are not vissible they are internal.
This branch lock could be 2 weeks before it is show. While the other keep working on there branch.

This open production is more related to specific branches. Those that are public. There lot not visible.

I wonder if workers at each studio can see the full reprository of engine but also assets. And each other branch.
Or only the main and there own.

 

[Marak]

There is no proof of any kind of mismanagement or incompetency, aside from the load of conspiracy theories from this thread and the anti-chris-roberts blog. Which again have no proof. So all the recurrent "mismanagement/incompetency/fraud/scam" debate on this thread is pretty much baseless and useless. A great exercise in imagination for sure, but such skills would be far more profitable by writing novels instead of posting fictional theories on a forum.

* Disclaimer. All this is just my opinion.

There is an enormous amount of evidence of mismanagement in this game - (numerous delays, Star Marine cancelled - not cancelled - in the game then being released soon, labelling backers with offensive titles, the Ilfonic affair, ship stats changing massively and losing seats, massive focus on selling stuff whenthey already have at least double the amount of cash they said they needed... I could go on).

You ask why there are SC haters on this thread. I don't hate SC, I bought into it early on. I'd love to play SC and was once desperate for this game to come out.

What I dislike is the way this game has been managed. I'm not angry, just annoyed. Annoyed that what was pitched as a dream game that I so wanted to play has been so screwed up by the guy in charge. Now we'll be lucky to end up with an MVP in a year or so. I didn't give CIG money for an MVP, I wanted a fully functional universe to play in. I wanted the game Chris described in the Kickstarter.

I tried expressing my thoughts on the SC forums but you can guess what happened.

I think the problem is that CR has so many adoring followers, he believes he can do no wrong and people will wait forever for this game and continue to fund it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/564ni9/letter_to_the_chairman/

I think many other ED fans were excited for SC too and probably feel the same way, as we've seen how a competent developer can make a game.

So I don't hate SC, I just don't like what it has become.


/sermon over

 

[Hi-Ban]

Read the Kotaku article..and put your attention on CR own damn words in that article.

On that article i read about how difficult and complicated it is to create different studios from scratch around the globe and running all of them in a perfect coordination to create a game with a greater scope than has ever been done. There is a quite high leap between that and the recurrent and baseless "mismanagement/incompetency/fraud/scam" from this thread.

Hell, people here are complaining that a game with a so great scope as Star Citizen is taking more than 2 years of development! You know, a game some people claimed "it can't be made" or "the technology required for this game is decades away", they are complaining that it's taking longer than 2 years to be done!!
Some people here are demanding CR to do the impossible in 1/3 of the time it takes to do the average AAA game. And then they call him incompetent because he missed the 2-years-to-do-the-impossible deadline.

 

[Asp Explorer]

They don't. The Idris as currently designed can't fit into memory.

Juicy. Is that a result of, or the reason for, the Idris refactoring and whotsisface making a huge song and dance about how that made a price increase very reasonable, the ship was now twice as big, and it would cost even MOAR when hangar ready?

Weren't hangars already made smaller? How are they going to fit a bigger ship into a smaller hangar? Or are they going to re-refactor hangars after saying they were all done with them, even though they promised hangar parties and multiple players visiting each other?

Buy a Polaris!

Then buy a hangar it'll fit in!

 

[ianw]

On that article i read about how difficult and complicated it is to create different studios from scratch around the globe and running all of them in a perfect coordination to create a game with a greater scope than has ever been done. There is a quite high leap between that and the recurrent and baseless "mismanagement/incompetency/fraud/scam" from this thread.

Hell, people here are complaining that a game with a so great scope as Star Citizen is taking more than 2 years of development! You know, a game some people claimed "it can't be made" or "the technology required for this game is decades away", they are complaining that it's taking longer than 2 years to be done!!
Some people here are demanding CR to do the impossible in 1/3 of the time it takes to do the average AAA game. And then they call him incompetent because he missed the 2-years-to-do-the-impossible deadline.

I think people are just demanding CR do what he's been bragging about for years but on current evidence clearly can't do in any way.

If he wasn't incompetent he wouldn't have promised impossible deadlines - that's part of what being competent is - actually understanding what you can deliver - not just 'ing it to get people to part with their cash.

 

[Stigbob]

But yes you are right that neither you, I or anyone here can say for sure that this game is or isn't a scam but if it is, it's really convincing scam.

I disagree it's not convincing at all.

 

[jcrg99]

No all that evidence is circumstantial at best and petty at worst. Nothing that has been put forth indicates any kind of malfeasance and is only grasping at straws. Sure there have been hiccups but nothing that is so egregious that it's breaking any laws that I've read.

Star Citizen was false advertised. They made a lot of deceptive marketing. That is a fact. Circumstanial? You gotta to be kidding! Indeed. That does not mean that they did all that in purpose. It could be just repetitive mistakes (hard to believe, but who cares). Here lies where clearly you don't understand this law. There is no need to prove that you made that in purpose. It's a business obligation and if you ignored your legal obligation as a business (of not been deceptive when advertising), you will suffer consequences if any customer or government authority decides to go against you. You have no recourse. You lost. You know, right, (I hope) that not all laws requires "malfeasance" to be broken. Even homicides. I am sure that you will have to pay if you kill someone else by accident, right? Accidentally give a wrong treatment to a patient. Accidentally not deliver a product bought through your website and not delivered in time... That is pretty much how the advertising laws work. That's why that statement is that you have the obligation to know and do not make false ad/deceptive ad if you are a business in United States. And RSI broken it. Repeatedly.
This is fact!

Now... by the amount of times that they did that, and how they behaved when answering about that, how they changed even TOS clauses to escape from responsibilities, making even a contractual clause a bait, that certainly indicates bad faith. While that could not be a bad faith in term of defending the project, still is bad faith of disrespecting consumers, and still is against the law and against the own deal made between RSI and their consumers.

Chris Roberts, for example, have been trying to claim that only promised Squadron 42 originally and that Star Citizen was stretch goals. While that "could be true", that seemed to be only in his mind, because it was never advertised in such way. And when trying to explain to the press and backers that, he actually used from a webpage that did not exist in the time of Kickstarter, to try to "prove" that people knew that by that time. That was, without doubt, a try, in purpose, of deception, or at least, that is how any lawyer, judge, government authority would interpret if looking into the case.

Unless you are living in a rock or in another planet, you should know that RSI broke many laws an that is pretty much one of the main reasons that they free like cowards of going to the court of law, doing all that they can to deny refunds, but in the eve of an authority coming or consumer filing a lawsuit, they go back, comes with some lame excuse and give the refunds to any person who requires.

 

[Andovar]

[h=2]CitizenCon is here![/h]...just hit my inbox.
I think I used to get excited about these about 2 years ago.
I mean gamescom is just 2 months old, how much new stuff could they have to show??

 

[Hi-Ban]

I think people are just demanding CR do what he's been bragging about for years but on current evidence clearly can't do in any way.

If he wasn't incompetent he wouldn't have promised impossible deadlines - that's part of what being competent is - actually understanding what you can deliver - not just 'ing it to get people to part with their cash.

The 2-year (2014) deadline was set when they aimed to get 2 million funding to make an average space sim. Anyone with at least 2 brain cells should know that if you increase the scope of a game, the development time will increase proportionally. That's the reason why most people don't mind the delays.
You can't blame someone for not having a Delorean to go back to the future and see what's gonna happen. The same way, you can't blame someone for hiring an external studio and expecting them to NOT<SFE> their work. People here are calling CR incompetent for not knowing the future. Literally.

 

[briguy168]

Since you're so keen on demanding evidence let's see yours.

Ah but you are trying to prove they are scamming which means the onus is on you to prove it and provide evidence and not me. Since you haven't posted any objective and verifiable evidence, I guess we can conclude that there is no scam. Thanks for playing

Here are some of the things we can see;

The software or "game" is broken - still.

Lot's of promises have been made that have been changed.

There is zero independent financial evidence as to the financial state of affairs of the company(ies).

Chris made all sorts of promises about features with no knowledge of what the engine could actually do.

They still don't know what the engine can do after all their ongoing changes.

Chris has admitted that as a multi-site organisation they are functionally incompetent (obvious - shame he couldn't factor that into his promises) - he even admitted some of that was down to him - but it's clear given his penchant for micro managing that everything that has gone wrong is down to him.

And then he signed off on T&C's that state they are under no obligation to deliver anything and that anyone stupid enough to buy in from that point waives their legal rights.

So at this point I'd say you have shown no undeniable evidence it isn't a "scam" just as I have no undeniable evidence it is.

1. Alpha (regardless if you don't like that answer, it's an answer nonetheless)
2. Only promises that I have seen changed were LTI. Please provide exact examples of when they broke their promises.
3. Hahahaha, that's funny that you think you're entitled to that information. They don't, except for when it's court ordered, have to disclose any financial information to anyone. No amount of complaining or posturing will change that very simple fact.
4. Right what were those promises again and how is that relevant to Star Citizen/SQ42 being a scam?
5. Like I asked Sleutelbos, how does mismanagement equate to scamming people?
6. Nice mis-characterization of the facts, he admitted that there was some mismanagement and miscommunication that has happened. He fully admits that he is a hard boss and isn't shy to call people out. Anything else beyond that is pure conjecture.

So basically no verifiable evidence and subjective opinions....gotcha

addendum:
What about all the press and and the backers that have come and toured their studio.....they must be in on this huge conspiracy too....

 

[Asp Explorer]

Similarly, anyone with a functioning brain would have built that $2m average space sim, released it, and then spent the rest of any incoming money making it better.

 

[Dooguk]

On that article i read about how difficult and complicated it is to create different studios from scratch around the globe and running all of them in a perfect coordination to create a game with a greater scope than has ever been done. There is a quite high leap between that and the recurrent and baseless "mismanagement/incompetency/fraud/scam" from this thread.

Hell, people here are complaining that a game with a so great scope as Star Citizen is taking more than 2 years of development! You know, a game some people claimed "it can't be made" or "the technology required for this game is decades away", they are complaining that it's taking longer than 2 years to be done!!
Some people here are demanding CR to do the impossible in 1/3 of the time it takes to do the average AAA game. And then they call him incompetent because he missed the 2-years-to-do-the-impossible deadline.

Here's what Chris said "Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale."

Chris says lots of stuff.

 

[Stigbob]

The 2-year (2014) deadline was set when they aimed to get 2 million funding to make an average space sim. Anyone with at least 2 brain cells should know that if you increase the scope of a game, the development time will increase proportionally. That's the reason why most people don't mind the delays.
You can't blame someone for not having a Delorean to go back to the future and see what's gonna happen. The same way, you can't blame someone for hiring an external studio and expecting them to NOT <SFE> their work. People here are calling CR incompetent for not knowing the future. Literally.

Chris Roberts said that increased scope and funding would not delay the game. When he said that was he wrong, lying or does he lack the requisite 2 brain cells ?.

 

[ianw]

The 2-year (2014) deadline was set when they aimed to get 2 million funding to make an average space sim. Anyone with at least 2 brain cells should know that if you increase the scope of a game, the development time will increase proportionally. That's the reason why most people don't mind the delays.You can't blame someone for not having a Delorean to go back to the future and see what's gonna happen. The same way, you can't blame someone for hiring an external studio and expecting them to NOT <SFE> their work. People here are calling CR incompetent for not knowing the future. Literally.

If your management style is "petty micromanaging tyrant" then I'm afraid it's all down to you.

Hire an incompetent external studio - well you hired them - didn't do due diligence - down to you.

Oh, your idiot manager hired them? Well gee whizz - guess you should manage your managers better - down to you.

Didn't manage them properly or give them the info they needed - down to you.Though in this case with

Illfonic - CR admitted it was down to him - one of the only stand up things he's publicly done so far in this whole mess.

It's CR's self confessed management style lays the blame firmly at his feet. That said it's obvious to any observer "with at least 2 brain cells" that it's down to him anyway.

 

[Andovar]

Similarly, anyone with a functioning brain would have built that $2m average space sim, released it, and then spent the rest of any incoming money making it better.

hmmm... I think i know a company that used that model.

 

[Maruun]

hmmm... I think i know a company that used that model.

Pshht, dont spoil the fun.

 

[FuriousMeow]

If mental gymnastics were a real event we'd have some gold medal finalists defending the church of CRoberts.

 

[Dooguk]

hmmm... I think i know a company that used that model.

Give me the first letter.

 

[Andovar]

Give me the first letter.

sorry, Maruun asked to keep it a secret.

 

[Prince Thrakkath]

Chris Roberts said that increased scope and funding would not delay the game. When he said that was he wrong, lying or does he lack the requisite 2 brain cells ?.

This is the fact that the acolytes of the church of Roberts continuously choose to ignore. The poll where people voted to 'expand the scope' of the original vision had a very clear caveat that it would not delay the release, in fact we were told the additional money and resources would mean we would get more of the game sooner. Its a lie to say 'we the backers' voted for delays and begging for crowdfunding money to 2016 and beyond, I was there from day 1 and have seen all the that has been peddled up to now. That is not to say its a scam, but deliberate misleading of backers and predatory marketing has been prevalent throughout the project. Who can defend Star Marine playable in a matter of weeks? There are many other things that I could list that were deliberately misleading, but its all been well documented at this point so I see no reason to list it again. The fact is there is zero reason to take at face value anything CIG or CR have to say at this point.