The Star Citizen Thread v5

[proKar_garlic]

Calling this game a scam, calling the staff behind it con-artists, incompetents and it's backers shill's, whiteknights etc IS a personal attack.
Continuously posting mocking pictures IS a personal attack. Saying that people "would better off asking for a refund" IS a personal attack on this game and it's backers.

I could post X pictures making for a pro-star citizen way while mocking other backer's / gamers but would end up reported by the "others" that cant handle the mud slinging going both ways. This turf is not even for mud slinging because there is no eagerness for discussion about a game, just the intent to ignite opinions into the exacerbation that Star Citizen is a scam and is going collapse in 2 weeks or 90 days or in the next year or maybe later when "I'm finished with it".

This is the only thread about a game where the "disliker's/non player" posters surpass the "liker's/players" posters That says a lot about it, normally humans gravitate into the things they like, hobbies, food , personalties, not the way around.

Let's not forget that people have been called liars for even suggesting that Star Marine was canceled. And then it was canceled. Only for CR to claim that Star Marine has been rolled into the PU. Which was not at all the case since most of the weapons, the gamemodes, maps and other features such as Sataball are not there. Plus as we know from the StarMarine devs, the contract was not ended normally but sudden and unexpectedly, with almost none of the work done for StarMarine having been used in the PU.

Well but SC was not "cancelled" , anyone playing the game can have more and better FPS gameplay than what was had in the early builds of Star Marine, that's a non issue spread by people that never played or even downloaded Star Citizen, I even doubt they are backers. That disinformation is what pro-sc posters here try to clear here, just that.

 

[Toumal]

Well but SC was not "cancelled" , anyone playing the game can have more and better FPS gameplay than what was had in the early builds of Star Marine, that's a non issue spread by people that never played or even downloaded Star Citizen, I even doubt they are backers. That disinformation is what pro-sc posters here try to clear here, just that.

I saw the gamescom presentation gameplay. And you can't tell me that there's "more and better" fps gameplay in 2.4
They had working weapons and nobody was spawning without heads or with deformed limbs. And don't get me started on the whole gravity generator bit. That was        g awesome and had me personally very opimistic about SC as a whole again. None of that is in 2.4

 

[ZioYuri78]

Yep...as I undurstand that's exactly that..so do not log in on your account untill we do not get any more info about it!!!This just can't be legal in EU and many countries but still....

The interesting (and sadly "funny") fact is if you are a "concierge" level backer you can made request for a refund via the concierge ticket, but if what we have in new ToS about login to RSI website is real (i'm talking, of course, about "auto agree" the ToS) this is completely useless because on the act of send concierge ticket you agree the new Tos and zaaack, no refund.

This is insane, literally insane.

 

[JOCKEY]

Originally Posted by proKar_garlic
"....Not fair or evenly balanced this thread, that's why most of the Pro-Star Citizen posters get banned or simply leave this thread."

If you are going to make random accusations, then at least get your facts straight, and be specific as to who said what to offend you, and in context please, makes for better discussion about SC's in the least questionable development history.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Story goes - my girlfriend was in charge to update SC client (it takes forever) and she just agreed to the new TOs with out reading it. AKA my lil brother did it....

Ahh unlucky....well to be honest I never want to ask for refund(it's just not worth a drag and it's small ammount) and I was about to download 2.4 this morning I knew from before that the new TOS is getting ready but I didn't expecting it that is going to be humiliating like this...This is seriously the WORST TOS I ever read or heard about it,after all what was heappening from the last week(tagging-watermark affairs) this TOS look like the safety boat out from the ship that is sinking for a while.....I feel disgust with the ppl. who salute this kind of dirty move,it's about thier customers rights to but they seems to be happy to give up their freedom&money to their only "lord&savior".....

 

[proKar_garlic]

I saw the gamescom presentation gameplay. And you can't tell me that there's "more and better" fps gameplay in 2.4
They had working weapons and nobody was spawning without heads or with deformed limbs. And don't get me started on the whole gravity generator bit. That was g awesome and had me personally very opimistic about SC as a whole again. None of that is in 2.4

This is exactly what I'm referring to, you saw it and I played it. What did you actually saw from the gamescom and then pax presentation was a bare-bones prototype of a map with a couple of weapons, severely bad animations (most reloads were broken as were the jukes, aim-on-sight wobbliness). Have you played Star Citizen recently? Have you seen the improvements in the physicalized EVA animations? You bump into stuff your hands , legs adapt, it's fluid, feels good, Star Marine you were stiff as a plank board, animations were slowed down and it wasn't remotely fun to begin with. It all looked cool but it played as a clunky demo, having that out there would undermine Star Citizen as a project because , due to the media leverage that it generated it would be fiercely compared with COD/BF/CS, just like Arena Commander was compared (still is) with other space flight games. Despite being in alpha and undergoing constant changes...
It's so easy to understand why this things happen, yet it is a constant fight for validation in anything SC does, everything its picked on because "it's the biggest crowd-funded game ever", those $115 millions were given to them, 100% optional.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

The interesting (and sadly "funny") fact is if you are a "concierge" level backer you can made request for a refund via the concierge ticket, but if what we have in new ToS about login to RSI website is real (i'm talking, of course, about "auto agree" the ToS) this is completely useless because on the act of send concierge ticket you agree the new Tos and zaaack, no refund.

This is insane, literally insane.

Yep agree..100%..INSANITY&MADNESS....

 

[Osmanthus]

Calling this game a scam, calling the staff behind it con-artists, incompetents and it's backers shill's, whiteknights etc IS a personal attack.
Continuously posting mocking pictures IS a personal attack. Saying that people "would better off asking for a refund" IS a personal attack on this game and it's backers.

I could post X pictures making for a pro-star citizen way while mocking other backer's / gamers but would end up reported by the "others" that cant handle the mud slinging going both ways. This turf is not even for mud slinging because there is no eagerness for discussion about a game, just the intent to ignite opinions into the exacerbation that Star Citizen is a scam and is going collapse in 2 weeks or 90 days or in the next year or maybe later when "I'm finished with it".

This is the only thread about a game where the "disliker's/non player" posters surpass the "liker's/players" posters That says a lot about it, normally humans gravitate into the things they like, hobbies, food , personalties, not the way around.



Well but SC was not "cancelled" , anyone playing the game can have more and better FPS gameplay than what was had in the early builds of Star Marine, that's a non issue spread by people that never played or even downloaded Star Citizen, I even doubt they are backers. That disinformation is what pro-sc posters here try to clear here, just that.

If Star Marine wasn't cancelled, why does the content that was advertised as part of it not exist in current builds of the PU?

Also, isn't it odd that when someone says a game or its development process is rubbish it's perfectly fine unless it's Star Citizen, when it suddenly becomes some kind of vicious, inhuman thing. I'd better not point out that Daikatana was an awful mess and its development a complete wreck because someone like you might come along and tell me I'm a troll.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Yep agree..100%..INSANITY....

Was that a stretch goal?

 

[Toumal]

Have you played Star Citizen recently?

I did. I find the idea of seamless integration of fps and space intriguing, but the execution is extremely bad. I developed a fear of doors and ramps because at any moment they could fling you out to space. Oh and at several points my gun vanished. Oh and you dodged my point about the missing content. Where are the game modes? The grav gen? Sataball?

As someone else put it: If this were an early access title with any other name on Steam, it would cost USD 4.90 and have mostly negative reviews.

 

[Ozram]

Ahh unlucky....well to be honest I never want to ask for refund and I was about to download 2.4 this morning I knew from before that the new TOS is getting ready but I didn't expecting it that is going to be humiliating like this...This is seriously the WORST TOS I ever read or heard about it,after all what was heappening from the last week(tagging-watermark affairs) this TOS look like the safety boat out from the ship that is sinking for a while.....I feel disgust with the ppl. who salute this kind of dirty move,it's about thier customers rights to but they seems to be happy to give up their freedom&money to their only "lord&savior".....

Indeed. Where before the behaviour of CIG was simply unsavoury, it has now crossed over into dangerous. The ramifications for allowing a TOS like this to stand unchallenged will (if allowed to remain) set a terrible precedent for other unscrupulous companies and have consequences far outside the scope of a simple gaming community. This is a big deal and cannot be understated.

 

[ianw]

Let's not forget that people have been called liars for even suggesting that Star Marine was canceled. And then it was canceled. Only for CR to claim that Star Marine has been rolled into the PU. Which was not at all the case since most of the weapons, the gamemodes, maps and other features such as Sataball are not there. Plus as we know from the StarMarine devs, the contract was not ended normally but sudden and unexpectedly, with almost none of the work done for StarMarine having been used in the PU.



I'd recommend against that. Personal fights just detract from the issue at hand. Let's keep this about SC and not about the backers.

I respect your opinion Toumal but it's really not a personal fight as far as I'm concerned - I had a point to make and I made it.

Let's not forget - whatever any of us say doesn't change the current state of the game now nor will it in the future.

I was happy to to just have a bit of laugh about it - now I've seen this new ToS I'm happy to make much more of a fuss about it and highlight the issues as often as possible.

Though I will make an effort not to get this thread closed.

 

[Toumal]

Oh and I have yet to hear a defense for this:

From the Kickstarter campaign: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

Real quick, Star Citizen is:

A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
No Subscriptions
No Pay to Win

Terms of Service Chapter VIII: http://imgur.com/a/Ov1Tt

"If you pay a recurring (e.g. monthly) subscription for an RSI Service..."
"By agreeing to these Terms of Service and purchasing a recurring subscription..."


So with drop-in/drop-out coop gone (Stated by CIG), mod-able multiplayer gone (Stated by CIG, "not on any list right now"), Subscriptions having appeared... how can anyone say complaints about these things are "deceptive lies"?

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Indeed. Where before the behaviour of CIG was simply unsavoury, it has now crossed over into dangerous. The ramifications for allowing a TOS like this to stand unchallenged will (if allowed to remain) set a terrible precedent for other unscrupulous companies and have consequences far outside the scope of a simple gaming community. This is a big deal and cannot be understated.

EXACTLY my point....This madness threaten to destroy now not only the many new Crowdfounding projects but the our gaming customers rights 2,it's opens the door for all other crooks&thieves....As I said this now hit totally other level and it's not only about the game anymore!!!

 

[Dr Wookie]

Calling this game a scam, calling the staff behind it con-artists, incompetents and it's backers shill's, whiteknights etc IS a personal attack.

This is the only thread about a game where the "disliker's/non player" posters surpass the "liker's/players" posters That says a lot about it, normally humans gravitate into the things they like, hobbies, food , personalties, not the way around.



Well but SC was not "cancelled" , anyone playing the game can have more and better FPS gameplay than what was had in the early builds of Star Marine, that's a non issue spread by people that never played or even downloaded Star Citizen, I even doubt they are backers. That disinformation is what pro-sc posters here try to clear here, just that.

I certainly don't agree with all of the labelling and name calling going on pro- and anti- SC. Not least because it is a very low quality of arguememt. I do believe that some people are having fun with the latest alpha, and wish them well. My SC experience has not been great, so I will not personally be downloading anything until release.

I think that the odd ratio of dislikes to likes in this thread and the ones before is because many of these people started off as fans and backers in the beginning, and are very disappointed. I backed in early 2014, more than 2 years ago, and have only felt disappointed and alienated by the progress of the game in that time. I know some people feel the same way about ED, but I consider myself lucky that I really enjoy it. If SC were a stronger product, it would enjoy a rather different ratio.

I am intrigued to see what CIG have planned for Gamescon, and would be very happy to see world-changing PG planets; as I said before, SC have no interest in realistic planets, only interesting ones, meaning that they could fudge some really cool stuff. I already have ED for full scale star systems, SC has room to be a Hollywood blockbuster of action highlights and fluff.

People get banned for persistent violating this Forum's ToS, which is FAR more reasonable that that of CIG (or is it RSI)

 

[JOCKEY]

Originally Posted by proKar_garlic:
"Saying that people "would better off asking for a refund" IS a personal attack on this game and it's backers."


I don't feel personally attacked by that advise, and I'm a Concierge Backer, 3 times over.

I've downloaded and participated in every single PTU patch and public version since version 0.8.

The contents of that new TOS is an insult to everyone's intelligence and common sense IMO.

 

[Earthshine]

It's so easy to understand why this things happen, yet it is a constant fight for validation in anything SC does, everything its picked on because "it's the biggest crowd-funded game ever", those $115 millions were given to them, 100% optional.

They chose to advertise their development as being open, so people developed particular expectations about that. They chose to state when they would release, so people developed expectations about that. Every single expectation unfulfilled eats away at peoples faith, this is true in any walk of life. From my perspective, and I've followed the thread for a long time now, there have been a great many expectations that just haven't been fulfilled...and alot of the posters here lost their faith in CIG and Chris Roberts somewhere along the line....by their own personal standard.

If someone (that is, CIG) keeps trumpeting on about how much money they've pulled in, how great their ideas are, how open the development is....and so on and so forth, they are opening themselves up to criticism quite willingly....compound that with avid fans and they're asking...asking...for strong critical opinions to be expressed. Trying to douse peoples dissatisfaction with diametrically opposed opinions is just adding fuel to the fire, people adjust their own expectations.

 

[xondk]

ED to my mind had delivered pretty much what it pitched in Kickstarter,

Same here, it feels like those that say it hasn't didn't really know or listen to the actual words said then....but yeah, unwinnable argument unfortunately.

Why people that clearly don't like the game direction, management, mechanics keep posting deceptive lies after lies

No clue, this happens in a lot of places in practically every gaming community, I want to point out though that for all star citizen's video's and whatnot, there is a lot of empty answers or unanswered questions, add the ToS change? and if the whole thing about mocap holds true well yeah.

But the thing that as a backer bothers and worries me the most is the performance issues that are on the server, they have been there ever since server went up, arena commander basically can rely on nothing but the cry engine and what it can do network wise, so it is 'less' of an issue there, but the massive fps loss due to 'networking' ? so you can't even get to 30 fps unless you have an absurdly massive computer, because it needs that power to simply brute force its way past the problem? that is what worries me.

I would be perfectly happy beta testing and trying to help fix bugs and whatnot, on low graphics that looked crap but at least gave playable framerates, meaning above the around max 25 that is currently. And yes, I get it is beta, and I get optimization isn't done yet, but here's the thing.

If you can't even get the beta to run at bad graphics (everything low) at a playable framerate, then you got a MASSIVE issue, because then it isn't related to how the graphics work, but the basic networking protocol, they can't get network culling to work right or something related to that, I believe they've stated? and that is a massive problem, yet that problem has not been fixed yet through all this time since 2.0 beta release, instead they've been adding more and more pretty ships?

That is what worries me, and that is what makes me think the other stuff said might be true, so yeah.

Some people often say that Elite is made entirely by coders and that's why it has gameplay/game design issues here and there, I don't know what to say on that if true or not, I think Frontier's approach is a good one, despite the weird issues and some people complain about grinding, getting it 'right' in both mechanics and design in a game with this scope is hard.
But the opposite seems to be true for Star Citizen? made entirely by designers, everything 'looks' good and whatnot, but there is no one that knows how to make it work? And their scope is similar in size to Elite, but without it seems, (since I obviously don't know where they actually stand) anyone that knows how it should work in the code/mechanic part of it...
So that while Elite might be a an ugly car with bumps, scrapes, weird design choices and such, it runs and runs well and the mechanics work.
Star Citizen could end up being a very pretty, beautiful, great designed car, but with no mechanics working inside it it ends up going nowhere. I do not hope this is so, I hope they surprise us, but I do worry.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

This is just about the time to quote Mr.Leonardo da Vinci:
“There are three classes of people on this world: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.”

 

[dsmart]

To curb the wanton speculation and disinformation, I have updated my synopsis. Will have more on Monday when I speak with my attorneys.

UPDATE 16/06/10: And it came to pass that the new June 2016 ToS has been released with the latest 2.4 "patch" going live.
Here is a handy comparison between the previous Feb 2015 v1.2 and this latest June 2016 version.
I am working on a blog; but the highlights and implications of this new ToS are:

1. They can deliver anything (e.g. Minimum Viable Product as I wrote in this blog) they like, and it doesn't have to resemble anything promised and which you backed. Which means that everything you see here in the stretch goals - and which you backed - is now meaningless. Those concept ships which have yet to be modeled, let alone flight ready? They don't have to create them
2. They are under no obligation to deliver anything - like ever
3. You are not entitled to refunds - for any reason - like ever
4. They can ban your account - for any reason - delete it, and not refund you
5. If you buy an account and they find out, they can terminate the account and not refund you. This is essentially to kill the Grey market (Star Citizen trades has now been removed from the Reddit subs), prevent people from buying accounts and/or holding CIG accountable etc
6. The disparaging CS tagging (1, 2) that occurred just this week, gives rise to how they were seeking to identify backers outside of their website/services, in order to identify their accounts and terminate them - without cause (other than because you were a dissenter)
7. They no longer owe backers any financial accountability for where the money went. This was one of the key points they used as a carrot during this funding. That, and the ability to do refunds. Both have now been removed.
8. There is no release date for anything. The 18 month (which was previous 12 months in prior ToS revisions) time frame to deliver following the original Nov 2014 date, has been removed
9. The new ToS is an agreement with RSI and not CIG as before. Considering they have a bunch of corporated entities associated with this, the implication of this change it not yet clear to me
10. They say you agree not to sue them - like ever

In the meantime, if you ever want legal recourse, do NOT download the 2.4 patch and do NOT do ANYTHING on their site and/or services in which you are required to agree to this new ToS.

TO BE CLEAR: This new ToS only applies to i) new backers from this date forward ii) existing backers who access the website, use their services, download/play the game etc and who in doing so, agree to this new ToS.
​

Since July 2015, I have been making a lot of noise about the ToS (which they have changed many times to suit their actions) and the fact that RSI/CIG are required to provide refunds and financial accountability to backers for failure to deliver the promised game, 18 months from the expiration Feb 2015 ToS v1.2. Those two clauses triggered on May 31st, 2016. And instead of abiding by them, they decided to create a new ToS which not only removes those clauses, but it also strips even more rights from backers who have thus far given them $115 million. Some backers said I was wrong about the ToS interpretation, that I didn't understand it, blah, blah, blah. Yet, with the latest 2.4 patch disaster hurriedly pushed to live (conveniently ahead of E3 which they recently backed out of attending), they have done precisely as I said and expected that they would.

This is CIG. There's always more; and it's always worse.
​