The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Yep all of that makes sense and they are compelling arguments. I could have made a very good real world case for an E:D refund when offline was dropped, I lived in a big city when I backed it with metropolitan broadband speeds, I then moved to the country and now have terrible broadband. But I can play solo (open on a good day) so it's no bother for me and I like the game I have (although the last update took nearly 5 days).
That effort post happened, because discussion on that side-topic always just ends up in the boring "servers go down" terrain. You now also brought up "bad connectivity" as another example.

For PC games it's a little more than the difference between watching Netflix and buying a DVD, it's a completely different experience.
 
(some of the best engineers in the world with Cryengine and Cinematic, Art, Design).


Ok, name some of them. Who are some of the best engineers in the world?

Star Citizen: They don't necessarily show gameplay.

- Does it make sense to spend all that money opening new studios abroad?

Sure. You've gotta spend money to make money. Especially when you're a clueless project manager like CR!
 
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dsmart

Banned
Hi dsmart!

Oh I just had lunch with a customer support guy at $work. This story made him laugh. At least in my company, this would definitely cost you your job. So much for the "everyone does this" excuse. The best thing CIG could do at this point is face the music: Apologize for the incident (and by incident I mean the tagging itself, not just that it got public) and fix the problem.

Don't be silly. That's never going to happen. They haven't even acknowledged the problem. All they've done - due to us Goons making a big stink about it - is take down the site in order to remove/hid the tags/org settings.

I got word earlier this morning that they seem to have removed them now.

1) go to your email and look for the CIG email from Zendesk
2) look for a link that look like this in the message/body of the email "https://cloudimperiumservicesllc.zendesk.com/hc/requests/XXXXXX"
3) it will ask you to login and you will still see the under-construction page but!!!
4) you can still view the page code/source

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I *almost* bought into SC. I still have my Golden Ticket email. I have friends who are in for $2K+ and they literally (no hyperbole) have had waking dreams about SC never coming out. The biggest missed opportunity throughout this whole thing, in my opinion, was for CR to "save PC gaming and revitalize the space genre." In a sense, he did. With ED, NMS, Mass Effect, Andromeda, Starfield (and I can't learn more about this fast enough, as info is reported), COD:IW, etc. getting releases in advance of SC (the initial vision, not the Minimal Viable Product) - the industry realized people were eager for an untapped genre (or at least one that hadn't been done in a while). If CR committed to delivering the initial vision on time (or a little thereafter, because CR and timelines have never mixed well) and then built upon that skeleton, the backers would be happy, instead of theorycrafting in threads about stuff that isn't even actualized in the tech demo. At this point, whatever is released - as "ahead of its time" as it may have been when conceived in...2012? - will be surpassed in visuals, physics, and gameplay mechanics, by those who jumped on after the fact (yet release earlier than SC) for a piece of the sweet space pie.

Except that all of those games were already in development, ahead of the Star Citizen noise.

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CIG has this much time to make an awesome demo for Gamescom

http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/gre_1471417200.png

Sources say they have nothing - literally nothing - to show. Which is precisely why they're now saying (in the latest community update) they are going to be live streaming from the show floor - all five days. That's a great way to generate filler.

My guess is they will probably do another ship sale, show some in-editor procedural stuff, and maybe some SQ42 cut-scene.

Seriously, think about it, outside of procedural planetary stuff and SQ42, what else could they possibly have that's worth showing - in less than nine weeks?

Which is precisely why they skipped the PC Gaming show. They have nothing. And if they are blown their wad at that smaller show, Gamescom would've been a bust for them.
 
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FerinexuS

Banned.
Banned
I just want to interrupt the regularly scheduled programming to say that ALL of my Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games have had:

>EVA
>massive galaxy
>space<->planet (procedurally generated + some handcrafted parts btw) transitions (not seamless due to engine requirements)
>full blown fps with an array of fps weapons, items etc
>exceptional flight dynamics engine (in fact, I updated it back in 2009) which makes fighters & cap ships handle differently
>crew & ship systems management in cap ships
>and a plethora of features geared toward "managing a capital ship with AI crew"

The last game in my BC/UC series, was released back in 2009. And I did a refresh of UCCE last year.

In other words, simply put, there is nothing in Star Citizen that hasn't been done before. Absolutely nothing. At all. And that's a fact.

Heck, go look at Angels Fall First, a UE engine indie game on Steam. And even they got it all in a neat package, without any of the ganky . And they've been doing that part-time and with zero funding for over six years.

The only people still thinking that the BDSSE is ever going to be a reality are i) paid shills ii) backers stuck in sunk cost fallacy + cognitive dissonance

And as I'm hearing from sources, even SQ42 isn't going to match any of the gameplay, let alone fidelity of indie offerings; let alone the likes of ME:A or COD:IW. There is a reason they haven't shown any of it, other than the Godawful Morrow Tour and and utterly horrid Oldman speech. Plus it's been Star Marined. So there is that.

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Hilariously, he can't go more than two posts without including my name.

Sorry but you can't say X game did this and that and not show proofs about it, How about some gameplay?
I know you get attacked from all angles "all" the time, but if you take the time to post some examples I would appreciated it.

I ask with sincerity, Is there any-other game right out that allows you to be a person/avatar and go from a space station/planet into a big-ass ship (thinking starfarer) with some friends, 5-10, and going wherever you want seamlessly, land 100000000 km's away on another space station, open the hatch and EVA to that said space station /planet and engage in FPS combat, explore, do quests whatever?

Because I want to play it really bad, show me examples of Battlecruiser gameplay clips or another game resembling anything close like this:

[video=youtube;OPK6AeNqx40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPK6AeNqx40[/video]

or this:

[video=youtube;T--n0LfkrvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T--n0LfkrvA[/video]

Because I want it, I'll pledge for it, I'll support it, I'll buy the normal, enhanced, elite edition of it!

But you can't, because there isn't, yet. It's not something easy to do, as you damn well know. It takes time and an engine tailored from the backbone to do it, which CryEngine wasn't, but was sold on Chris Roberts as being capable of, IF they restructured some of it's backbone, which they did/are doing.

Please watch the movie bellow interviewing the CIG Germany Studio Director and tell me how this game is "", "hoaxed", "impossible", "never coming out".

[video=youtube;hp5AlLytcn0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp5AlLytcn0[/video]

Do you "see" any Fear Uncertainty or Doubt in is words? Can you "read"
the doom & gloom preached from so many?
Well I can't , not even close, completely the opposite.
 
Do you "see" any Fear Uncertainty or Doubt in is words? Can you "read"
the doom & gloom preached from so many?
Well I can't , not even close, completely the opposite.

He seems nice and all, but there was nothing concrete there. Nothing to hold onto, nothing to expect in the near future. It's all so vague for a project half a decade in. What exactly are you deriving such nourishment and spiritual sustenance from other than his placid Christlike demeanor?
 
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I find myself kinda at a loss how to respond.

No - frankly that update video scared the pants out of me. He had nothing to show, very very little to say and did not look happy
 
CIG has this much time to make an awesome demo for Gamescom

http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/gre_1471417200.png

I don't think it'll be an issue. CIG could easily let Gamescom come and go with little/nothing of substance to show, and their fanbase will automatically rush to their defense all over the Internet claiming they're focused on Sq42. It's not like their reputation would go down any further either, since between Freyermuth and the cult-following all the press has been intimidated into silence anyway.

I wouldn't mind being wrong, but this isn't an unlikely scenario.
 

FerinexuS

Banned.
Banned
He seems nice and all, but there was nothing concrete there. Nothing to hold onto, nothing to expect in the near future. It's all so vague. What exactly are you deriving such nourishment and spiritual sustenance from other than his placid Christlike demeanor?

Well like mostly any of use, I don't know the guy, He seems believable and down to earth, so I did what I already did with Chris Roberts when I saw the Pitch video. I did a background check and went to see what they have worked on, did research and so on.

Believe me it's not me making it up that these are top Cryengine dev's in the world, it's multiple people from the industry, Dsmart might know some of them, or confirm this I think.

They were introduced in a studio movie last year, they talk a bit of their past, their past work confirms it, they walk the talk, write the names down and then check their past work. Mostly all Crytek AAA les from Crysis 1 and beyond.

[video=youtube;yisaDxvBH9s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yisaDxvBH9s[/video]
 
So you can't actually name the best engineers in the world, huh?

Me, I'd prefer to see what they actually produce before dubbing them the best engineers in the world. The netcode is still garbage... why didn't the best engineers in the world fix it before CIG? CryEngine has always had crap netcode. CryEngine 3 has been out since 2009, why not fix it?

You still haven't pointed out what was so inspiring and great about his answers in that interview. What are you deriving such confidence from? The whole thing was so vague and quiet. No specifics... The unsettling air of a hostage video didn't help much, either.
 
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They were introduced in a studio movie last year, they talk a bit of their past, their past work confirms it, they walk the talk, write the names down and then check their past work. Mostly all Crytek AAA les from Crysis 1 and beyond.
If you go to about 7.25 in that video you can scroll up and down this thread to see what a year of working for CR does to a guy
 

dsmart

Banned
Sorry but you can't say X game did this and that and not show proofs about it, How about some gameplay?
I know you get attacked from all angles "all" the time, but if you take the time to post some examples I would appreciated it.

I ask with sincerity, Is there any-other game right out that allows you to be a person/avatar and go from a space station/planet into a big-ass ship (thinking starfarer) with some friends, 5-10, and going wherever you want seamlessly, land 100000000 km's away on another space station, open the hatch and EVA to that said space station /planet and engage in FPS combat, explore, do quests whatever?

Because I want to play it really bad, show me examples of Battlecruiser gameplay clips or another game resembling anything close like this:

You're not very good at this. So let me re-post - for brevity - what I stated and which you conveniently danced around.

I just want to interrupt the regularly scheduled programming to say that ALL of my Battlecruiser/Universal Combat games have had:

>EVA
>massive galaxy
>space<->planet (procedurally generated + some handcrafted parts btw) transitions (not seamless due to engine requirements)
>full blown fps with an array of fps weapons, items etc
>exceptional flight dynamics engine (in fact, I updated it back in 2009) which makes fighters & cap ships handle differently
>crew & ship systems management in cap ships
>and a plethora of features geared toward "managing a capital ship with AI crew"

The above was in relation to your own statement about specific features; which you've not changed into this:

Is there any-other game right out that allows you to be a person/avatar and go from a space station/planet into a big-ass ship (thinking starfarer) with some friends, 5-10, and going wherever you want seamlessly, land 100000000 km's away on another space station, open the hatch and EVA to that said space station /planet and engage in FPS combat, explore, do quests whatever?

Here is how this works.

In games, you have i) features ii) implementation of those features depending on the game

A list of features with no meaning or relevance to game play, is just that: a list of features

In the case of fps games, they all have shooting mechanics as a feature. However, what makes all shooters different is the implementation of various aspects including visuals, gameplay, mechanics, presentation etc

So, back to "features in the BDSSE"....

Everything you posted above, are individual features - which have ALL been done in various games ahead of SC. e.g. in BC/UC, you can EVA and battle in space (above your cap ship for instance) with a weapon. You can take an entire cap ship and crew from space to planet, land, exit with your entire crew, do stuff. In Space Engineers, well, you can EVA and do all kinds of things. In SC, you can EVA and do a specific list of things.

What you described above, is a combination of said features into a game (a ganky, buggy one no less) based on the implementation of said game. So it's irrelevant how the feature is used. Ignoring that premise would be like saying that the weapon mechanics in ARMA are inferior to SC because, well Star Citizen allows you to EVA with a weapon.

So it's not that the features in SC are used in the game's implementation, it's that ALL the features touted HAVE been done before.

To be clear, nobody is saying that SC doesn't have unique features, nice graphics etc. What we're saying is that it doesn't have any unique features which haven't already been done before. And the fact that it's never - ever - going to accomplish the promised goal - means that it can't possibly live up to the BDSSE sales pitch. A pitch which, as has been mentioned before, isn't hyperbole; because if it was, then CR has committed fraudulent inducement. Which is illegal.

As I have stated before, I firmly believe that he believed that he could build the game he envisioned. Unfortunately for him, not having shipped a game in almost 15 years, let alone programmed, aware of new gaming etc, means that he put himself at a disadvantage. Then, to make things worse, after hiring the people who have been doing this while he was gone, he chose to ignore them.
 
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FerinexuS

Banned.
Banned
So you can't actually name the best engineers in the world, huh?

Me, I'd prefer to see what they actually produce before dubbing them the best engineers in the world. The netcode is still garbage... why didn't the best engineers in the world fix it before CIG? CryEngine has always had crap netcode. CryEngine 3 has been out since 2009, why not fix it?

You still haven't pointed out what was so inspiring and great about his answers in that interview. What are you deriving such confidence from? The whole thing was so vague and quiet. No specifics... The unsettling air of a hostage video didn't help much, either.

But I can:

Marco Corbetta - Senior Technical Director
Carsten Wenzel - Technical Director
Christopher Raine - Senior Physics Programmer
Chris Bolte - Senior Engine Programmer

Sean Tracy - Engine Technical Director

Remember the bold ones only joined in 2015 and they were the ones responsible for the double-precision 64 bit map, and now the PG planetary landing push.
Networking is about optimization, you don't build tremendously detailed assets, spending enormity's of money if you are not sure they will work network wise.
As much as people like to think CIG development is a chaotic mess , things are well thought and planned from long ago.
 
They were introduced in a studio movie last year, they talk a bit of their past, their past work confirms it, they walk the talk, write the names down and then check their past work. Mostly all Crytek AAA les from Crysis 1 and beyond.

The trouble is that they haven't shown one iota of PG content since the original prototype videos. As always there's been lots of talk about how quickly it's coming along, how fantastic it is, how much everyone is going to love it, how it will be the best out there etc etc.
But until they show off what they're gobbing on about then everyone reserves the right to be sceptical. The industry is replete with talkers, game devs are notorious for running their mouths in the name of hype. Fool me once... and all that.
 
But I can:

Admittedly, after checking the video, right? You'd think the best engineers in the world would be household names to those that care about such things!

and now the PG planetary landing push.

Which we've seen nothing useful of other than a bland tech demo that looks like every other PG tech demo. When they actually implement something I can play, let's revisit this.

As much as people like to think CIG development is a chaotic mess , things are well thought and planned from long ago.

Oh, cmon. Even YOU can't believe that. The plans long ago changed when the scope increased, remember? All that money allowed him to increase the potency of his vision and expand. That's the line, right? It was SO democratic and all the backers agreed, right?

I don't see ANTHING coming out of CIG well thought-out except the ship sales. Are you going to tell me going with Illfonic and the whole Star Marine debacle was well thought-out? Go on, twist yourself into a pretzel making the case that went according to plan and isn't chaotic in the least. We already have it in the game, right? Should be easy to prove.

What are they, rewriting the netcode for the fifth time now? That's well thought-out? Why didn't they work on it from the start knowing the requirements they had, knowing how important it was to the project? How many months of wasted work went to those abandoned rewrites that were hopelessly underperforming?

Repeatedly doing the animations. That's well thought-out?

Building a mocap studio, abandoning it, building another mocap studio, abandoning it, then shooting the mocap at literally THE MOST EXPENSIVE FACILITY ON THE PLANET FOR IT is well thought-out? Then having to do several rounds of reshoots? That's well thought-out?

It IS a chaotic mess, he's been flying by the seat of his pants. He hires people, disregards what they say, they quit the project, he hires new people, rinse and repeat. You can love CIG and support the project, but be honest... there HAVE been missteps, mistakes, growing pains, a revolving door of senior staff, etc. Turns out things don't go smoothly when you've been out of the business for over a decade.
 
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I *almost* bought into SC. I still have my Golden Ticket email. I have friends who are in for $2K+ and they literally (no hyperbole) have had waking dreams about SC never coming out. The biggest missed opportunity throughout this whole thing, in my opinion, was for CR to "save PC gaming and revitalize the space genre." In a sense, he did. With ED, NMS, Mass Effect, Andromeda, Starfield (and I can't learn more about this fast enough, as info is reported), COD:IW, etc. getting releases in advance of SC (the initial vision, not the Minimal Viable Product) - the industry realized people were eager for an untapped genre (or at least one that hadn't been done in a while). If CR committed to delivering the initial vision on time (or a little thereafter, because CR and timelines have never mixed well) and then built upon that skeleton, the backers would be happy, instead of theorycrafting in threads about stuff that isn't even actualized in the tech demo. At this point, whatever is released - as "ahead of its time" as it may have been when conceived in...2012? - will be surpassed in visuals, physics, and gameplay mechanics, by those who jumped on after the fact (yet release earlier than SC) for a piece of the sweet space pie.

Well Elite was in development long before SC according to some of the SC loyalists, so there you go.
However, ED did the KS at the same time as SC so I don't see an PC space game revelation due to CR, or the launch of SC.
 
But I can:

Marco Corbetta - Senior Technical Director
Carsten Wenzel - Technical Director
Christopher Raine - Senior Physics Programmer
Chris Bolte - Senior Engine Programmer

Sean Tracy - Engine Technical Director

Kind of off-topic here, but if you'd opened with that then your post would have sounded a lot more coherent and a lot less fanatical.

I mean, you still have no solid proof of anything, but at least we know you're talking about actual people instead of making up "the best engineers in the world" now. It's still hyperbole, but at least you're talking about real people.
 
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snip
I ask with sincerity, Is there any-other game right out that allows you to be a person/avatar and go from a space station/planet into a big-ass ship (thinking starfarer) with some friends, 5-10, and going wherever you want seamlessly, land 100000000 km's away on another space station, open the hatch and EVA to that said space station /planet and engage in FPS combat, explore, do quests whatever?

Because I want to play it really bad, show me examples of Battlecruiser gameplay clips or another game resembling anything close like this:
snip

Well, to stay in SC territory, All that will be possible in ED Soon (TM) and more. I know you added the avatar to try and make a distance from ED because because you can do most of it now in ED.

This year Character creation, S3 (2017) most likely but not confirmed, SPACELEGS (apply echo voice)

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Kind of off-topic here, but if you'd opened with that then your post would have sounded a lot more coherent and a lot less fanatical.

I mean, you still have no solid proof of anything, but at least we know you're talking about actual people instead of making up "the best engineers in the world" now.


says who? LOL, CIG another torso self beating proclamation.
 

dsmart

Banned
But I can:

Marco Corbetta - Senior Technical Director
Carsten Wenzel - Technical Director
Christopher Raine - Senior Physics Programmer
Chris Bolte - Senior Engine Programmer

Sean Tracy - Engine Technical Director

Remember the bold ones only joined in 2015 and they were the ones responsible for the double-precision 64 bit map, and now the PG planetary landing push.
Networking is about optimization, you don't build tremendously detailed assets, spending enormity's of money if you are not sure they will work network wise.
As much as people like to think CIG development is a chaotic mess , things are well thought and planned from long ago.

You are aware that i) the physics, including dynamics modeling, are still a mess, right? ii) CR has gone several times on the record (as recently as his last 104TC) saying he can't hire the talent that he needs to make his vision.

Rattling off a list of names is immaterial and irrelevant. Some of the best and brightest in gaming, have been responsible for some of biggest flops and disasters. A name doesn't make a game; a team with talent and experience, and effective leadership, does.
 
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