The Star Citizen Thread v5

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But this does beg the philosophical question, does Star Citizen/CIG actually deserve all of this negativity or criticism? Should they be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to finish? Can/should we, as space game fans, withhold our judgement until it releases/fails?
Oh sweet summer child. I think the days of benefit of the doubt ended in, oh, 1981 or so at the latest. This is the internet — allowing something to finish isn't in its nature. :D

As for whether it's deserved or not, I'll say without hesitation that Chris has invited a lot of that vitriol through his grandstanding and not-so-subtle snide remarks about other games. Doubly so when his own history is pretty checkered, not really putting him in a good position to have that kind of attitude, and when there are quite a few signs that he'll repeat his old mistakes with this project as well.
 
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The way I read it is Tippis is saying here that SC is massively hyped (which I think you would agree is true?), and then going on to assert that a further similarity is that it's not living up to the hype. The latter you may not agree with, but in any case he goes on with "A lead to B, and since C is similar in some ways to A, C could also lead to B". But he only said it wasn't a stretch of the imagination, not that it would definitely happen.

He's saying "if A and C are similar, then the results of A might also be the results of C". I don't see why this is objectionable?

That to me is arguing semantics (which I know I'm guilty of from time to time). IMHO, "stretch of the imagination" and "not much of a stretch" is analogous to "it will happen because of this...." (within the context of this argument). I did basically say that the foundation was setup correctly but the conclusion was wrong. The conclusion should have been "although the hype for the two are similar, the reaction could have the chance to be similar" instead of "so it's not much of a stretch to conclude that the SC contingent will react just like the NMS contingent did if they end up disappointed with the final product." Although subtle, very different conclusions.

You'll notice that in both cases, I point to a specific part of the respective communities — both of which have already exhibited this behaviour. Not “will”; “have already”. They're two peas in a pod, and we've seen the same behaviour over and over and over again over the last few years. So it's not much of a stretch to conclude that the SC contingent will react just like the NMS contingent did if they end up disappointed with the final product. Based on their performance so far, CIG is well on their way to end up there.

But it is entirely your interpretation that “the majority of the Star Citizen community WILL display the same vitriol that the NMS community did upon release”. That is you projecting your perception of the community (or, at best, your perception of the perception of the community) — not me.

I don't have that perception of the community. I think if Star Citizen does do a NMS, most will be upset about it but not overly vitriolic because they did observe where it was going. While the overzealous will rationalize it away and the critics will scream "I told you so"; however, that is beyond the point. Read above for an explanation.
 
That to me is arguing semantics (which I know I'm guilty of from time to time). IMHO, "stretch of the imagination" and "not much of a stretch" is analogous to "it will happen because of this...." (within the context of this argument).
It's not so much arguing semantics as you assuming a semantic drift that isn't there and then extending that into a strawman generalisation.

I don't have that perception of the community. I think if Star Citizen does do a NMS, most will be upset about it but not overly vitriolic because they did observe where it was going.
And again, this wasn't about “most” — this was about the core group of hype-spreaders who have already proven themselves entirely equal to their NMS counterpart by harassing and issuing death threats to people who do not agree with them. These are not stable people, and they do not take setbacks well. They're also not the ones who settle for stewing in their own corner but rather the ones who'll whip up a frenzy among their like-minded. The game isn't even remotely finished yet and they're already… ehrm… unpleasant. Imagine what happens if it is the game itself that provides the setback rather than people simply suggesting that a setback might happen.
 
This is the internet — allowing something to finish isn't in its nature. :D

Yes this is the Internet where vitriol and negativity do rule

As for whether it's deserved or not, I'll say without hesitation that Chris has invited a lot of that vitriol through his grandstanding and not-so-subtle snide remarks about other games. Doubly so when his own history is pretty checkered, not really putting him in a good position to have that kind of attitude, and when there are quite a few signs that he'll repeat his old mistakes with this project as well.

And were back to square one with subjective interpretations and all that. Shall we go down this rabbit-hole again or are we still agreeing to disagree because, for me, unless Microsoft, Chris Roberts, Erin Roberts, or Richard Garriott spills the beans about what happened, because they are the only ones that would know, it's all subjective interpretation.

As for CR's "snide" remarks that is also up to interpretation :D
 
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And were back to square one with subjective interpretations and all that. Shall we go down this rabbit-hole again or are we still agreeing to disagree because, for me, unless Microsoft, Chris Roberts, Erin Roberts, or Richard Garriott spills the beans about what happened, because they are the only ones that would know, it's all subjective interpretation.
It's not just Freelancer, and the funny thing is, both Chris and Richard Garriot have spilled the beans about many of the other projects. This is not subjective anything. Much of it is a matter of recorded history, and the fact that Chris' own repeated observations don't seem to have had any impact on him is troublesome.
 
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Any day now.
 
It's not just Freelancer, and the funny thing is, both Chris and Richard Garriot have spilled the beans about many of the other projects. This is not subjective anything. Much of it is a matter of recorded history, and the fact that Chris' own repeated observations don't seem to have had any impact on him is troublesome.

Well look at the excuse he made for Strike Commander's development.

Chris Roberts, in the game's manual, compares the game's long development time with the events in the 1991 documentary Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse, a film account of what it took to get the 1979 film Apocalypse Now made.
 
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That to me is arguing semantics (which I know I'm guilty of from time to time). IMHO, "stretch of the imagination" and "not much of a stretch" is analogous to "it will happen because of this...." (within the context of this argument). I did basically say that the foundation was setup correctly but the conclusion was wrong. The conclusion should have been "although the hype for the two are similar, the reaction could have the chance to be similar" instead of "so it's not much of a stretch to conclude that the SC contingent will react just like the NMS contingent did if they end up disappointed with the final product." Although subtle, very different conclusions.



I don't have that perception of the community. I think if Star Citizen does do a NMS, most will be upset about it but not overly vitriolic because they did observe where it was going. While the overzealous will rationalize it away and the critics will scream "I told you so"; however, that is beyond the point. Read above for an explanation.

Now this is just silly. Distinguishing between "possible or probable" and "certain" is not a "semantic" issue.
 
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Well look at the excuse he made for Strike Commander's development.
Specifically…
Chris Roberts said:
Recently, I watched the film Heart of Darkness, which chronicled the tremendous struggles that Francis Ford Coppola went through in crating Apocalypse Now. In many ways, the creation of Strike Commander has helped me identify with his plight.

It was two and half years ago, just after the release of Wing Commander, that I started out on what I then estimated to be a one-year project. I set out to create an industry shattering flight simulator that would encompass a revolutionary new 3-D system, a system that I planned to use for Wing Commander III and hoped would form the basis of a whole new generation of ORIGIN games. This system, which we later named RealSpace™, became the heart of Strike Commander. To make RealSpace truly revolutionary we decided to gamble on two major graphics techniques: Gouraud shading and texture mapping. Both of these techniques are used extensively on high-end military flight simulators costing millions of dollars. Their application gives rendered 3-D images a much more realistic and fluid appearance. Because of the power needed to implement such a 3-D system, nobody had previously dreamed of doing so on a PC. For us to pull off this software, we knew we had to make some risky assumptions. First, that the power-to-price ratio of PCs would continue to decline, thereby delivering affordable PCs of adequate speed to our target market. Second, and more importantly, that the same forces that had created a demand for Wing Commander — those power-hungry 386 owners — would generate a demand for games that exploited the next generation of PCs, the 486. When creating Wing Commander, there were many who doubted the game would sell because of their lack of faith in the high-end PC market. This time, however, everyone believed in the market and, as time went on, the doubts revolved around our ability to create the engine.

In the spirit of wanting it all, we set out to design a game that would have more realism than the best flight simulator, better storytelling, more fun and more accessibility than Wing Commander, and the best sound effects, music and graphics of any game ever created. Our biggest mistake was thinking that we could achieve all of this in a single year. Our biggest setback was the realization that it would take more than two. But our journey had begun and there was no turning back. Perhaps the greatest heartbreak came months after the Consumer Electronics Show in June 1991. Believing ourselves to be a few months from completion, we showed a demo of Strike in front of the press and our competitors. Months later, we were little closer to completion, but a subtle change had come over our competitors’ development plans. All of the sudden, parts of the technology we had shown at CES were showing up in their software. It wasn’t as if they had stolen our ideas — after all, the techniques we used to make RealSpace revolutionary for PCs are very well known in the high-end graphics field. The trouble was that nobody believed it could be done on the PC. With a single ill-timed demo, we had changed that belief and inadvertently given our competitors a heads-up on where we wanted to take the industry a full year and a half before we arrived there. During these revelations it was difficult to resist the temptation to push Strike out early and prevent our competitors from stealing any more of our thunder. But to stop short of our vision would have been unacceptable. We were in the middle of our journey and were determined to complete it, regardless of what lay ahead. And what lay ahead was the hardest part: long hours, short tempers and huge expectations.

In hindsight, knowing what a truly Herculean task Strike Commander turned into, the heartache and disappointment it created when its release date was constantly pushed back, and the amount of time from our personal lives that it consumed, we probably should have designed it differently. We wouldn’t have tried to do quite as much or shot quite as high. In our arrogance we had set out to create something that was not only better than everything else, it was several orders of magnitude bettre. And it was several orders of magnitude more expensive as well — in fact, the most expensive game ORIGIN has ever developed. Like Francis Ford Coppola and his film crew on Apocalypse Now, we knew we were in way over our heads, but we also knew there was no turning back.

And now, a little humbler, we’ve reached the end of our long and arduous journey. We look at Strike Commander and see a game that every member of the team can say, “Yes, it was two years of hell, but at the end of it we’ve created something that is very special and I’m proud of it.” I have never seen such selfless dedication from such talented individuals as the team that created it. Strike Commander is the game it is because of them. Each time I think about the dark circles under my eyes, the unshaven beards, the late night pizzas and the neglected spouses and girlfriends, I wonder what it is that makes us do this. One reason might be that the entire Strike Commander team , which has grown to as many as twenty people, are all avid computer game players. We buy and play our competitors’ games, looking forward to the latest developments in our field. If we weren’t writing games as a profession, we would be hating our day jobs and writing them at night. I hope this makes us as demanding and discriminating as anyone that plays our games. Although it sounds clichéd, for us it is much more than a job. I can think of no greater pride it would bring a team member than to have someone approach him at a computer store and tell him that Strike Commander was the best game they’ve ever played.

We hope you’ll agree.
For reference, in 1991 when they made that demo, Falcon 3.0 was already out, using both Gouraud shading for its terrain and limited textures. Indeed, both were popular features in the Amiga and PC demoscene to show off your programming prowess. No-one had any doubts that they could be done on PCs. Also, no-one thought it was a “risky assumption” that PC price-performance ratios would continue to drop. And no-one though that the final Strike Commander had anything remotely like the best graphics, music, or sound-effects. Doom had arrived. Also, Strike Commander wasn't a very good flight simulator compared to Falcon 3 or, hell, even F-15 III, and it was poorly optimised and slow.

This whole passage suggests that contrary to Chris' claims, they didn't really play or pay attention to their competitors' products because so much of what he says is nonsense. About the only thing he gets right is the doubts that Wing Commander would sell well. That's because it didn't sell well. When he talks about other companies kind-of-almost-but-not-really “stealing their ideas”, the only sensible thing this could have relate to was Lucasart, who of course offered all the “revolutionary” features in X-Wing and TIE fighter (plus better graphics, music, and sound effects). Arcade and console hardware with specific support for these features were in development at the same time — hardly the influence of Chris.

Anyone who knows the story of how Apocalypse Now was made will understand how laughable that particular comparison is, no matter how much the Origin guys had to stay at the office and eat pizza. [weird]
 
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First, that the power-to-price ratio of PCs would continue to decline, thereby delivering affordable PCs of adequate speed to our target market.
Was this even a risky assumption at the time? To my young self back then it seemed fairly certain that stuff would keep getting faster.

CMDR CTCParadox
 
Was this even a risky assumption at the time? To my young self back then it seemed fairly certain that stuff would keep getting faster.

CMDR CTCParadox
It's a riskier assumption today than it ever was back then. The 386 was nearing its end; 486es were rapidly becoming mainstream; the Pentium was on the horizon; processor frequencies and computing power were going through the roof.
 
Just come back from hols to find that 2.5 has been released to the masses.

Updated my launcher and 2.5 is coming down, another 25 GB to download. Is this the new optimised updater ? Is this 25GB of new and improved content? it seems a lot to pull down, even with all that fidelity.
 
Just come back from hols to find that 2.5 has been released to the masses.

Updated my launcher and 2.5 is coming down, another 25 GB to download. Is this the new optimised updater ? Is this 25GB of new and improved content? it seems a lot to pull down, even with all that fidelity.

No it's not 25GB of new content unfortunately. Their patcher reminds me of Apple's TimeMachine, even if just the timestamp of a directory or file gets altered it gets overwritten. Not the most efficient method to be honest :rolleyes:

It's a shame we don't have something like ZFS on windows, CIG could take an incremental snapshot and then have the patcher pull it down, you could do all sorts of trickery with that stuff.
 
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I wouldnt be suprised if many people that got burned by the hypetrain crash of NMS jumped to the next hypetrain named SC after that perfect alpha 3.0 video...a video about a patch that was 2 big updates away...
This hypetrain would never crash! CR will make a hypectrain that cant crash or disappoint at all...would be a first one too.

I assume so because i saw so many NMS players starting out with ED also.
 
I wouldnt be suprised if many people that got burned by the hypetrain crash of NMS jumped to the next hypetrain named SC after that perfect alpha 3.0 video...a video about a patch that was 2 big updates away...
This hypetrain would never crash! CR will make a hypectrain that cant crash or disappoint at all...would be a first one too.

I assume so because i saw so many NMS players starting out with ED also.

It's certainly happening but you have to wonder what muppet would simply leave one hype train and join another.
 
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