The Star Citizen Thread v8

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Todays games make one thing very clear. Beautiful looks and fluff dont make a game and certainly dont make a good game. Game mechanics and game loops ensure a games quality and playability. Looks are just the icing on top.

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

I totally agree that the project is terribly mismanaged in terms of featuritis. But I think they've made a lot of progress. At some point they'll have to cut out features and create a playable game.

It will almost certainly release unfinished like a certain game we all play and make money by selling ships to avoid the grind of earning them in-game.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

I totally agree that the project is terribly mismanaged in terms of featuritis. But I think they've made a lot of progress. At some point they'll have to cut out features and create a playable game.

It will almost certainly release unfinished like a certain game we all play and make money by selling ships to avoid the grind of earning them in-game.

I am having difficulty matching up the state of the game and the present tense. On the one hand you state the game WILL be amazing because of all the currently unimplemented features; on the other you state they will have to cut some features to get it released. So it is a bit like Shroedinger's feature set...

Currently what actually exists does not impress (me). What they MIGHT get working in the future could easily be 2 to 4 years down the line given current development pace.

 

[VidarSnipes]

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

Citation needed. I'd like to know what evidence do you have that CIG can create good game mechanics, could you point to an existing one that you consider implemented in a good way?

 

[[VR] scipio_77]

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

I totally agree that the project is terribly mismanaged in terms of featuritis. But I think they've made a lot of progress. At some point they'll have to cut out features and create a playable game.

It will almost certainly release unfinished like a certain game we all play and make money by selling ships to avoid the grind of earning them in-game.

You're able to buy insurance for your land, with real life money, on the promise that it will play in the real game.

'Cmon, they have beautiful promises, but they're selling virtual access to features in a very unfinished product for upwards to thousands of dollars. Something is off.

 

[Tippis]

Citation needed. I'd like to know what evidence do you have that CIG can create good game mechanics, could you point to an existing one that you consider implemented in a good way?

Hell, skip the whole “in a good way” — what “existing” game mechanic could even be considered implemented rather than being either not actually a game mechanic to begin with, or at best just some quickly slapped-together placeholder?

 

[ianw]

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

I totally agree that the project is terribly mismanaged in terms of featuritis. But I think they've made a lot of progress. At some point they'll have to cut out features and create a playable game.

It will almost certainly release unfinished like a certain game we all play and make money by selling ships to avoid the grind of earning them in-game.

Funny how it's always what you'll be able to do at some point not what you can do now in this game.

Out of curiosity what's your take on Erin's walkways?

To some (and me) it sounds like seamless just jumped on the last train out of PU'sville..

 

[Viajero]

Citation needed. I'd like to know what evidence do you have that CIG can create good game mechanics, could you point to an existing one that you consider implemented in a good way?

Golf swing scanning was godlike:

 

[ianw]

Golf swing scanning was godlike:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScholarlyClumsyIvorybilledwoodpecker-size_restricted.gif

Fore!

Spoiler

[video=youtube;e5u7yZiV3bI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5u7yZiV3bI[/video]

 

[MTBFritz]

You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

I gonna have to put this under "marketing claims" for the moment like 80% (% made up) of the game so far. While base building as well as player owned land are announced to be implemented hardly anything required for this to get live is currently evident. Persistence is still a huge topic AFAIK regarding the PTU and we would need to finetune and advance this aspect far more to enable any of the previous mentioned mechanics. You already can EVA and repair satellites. Both consists of lackluster animations and basic mechanics (you simply lift off then move like a ship) which leave much to be desired in order to be regarded as "groundbreaking" or "awesome". Ship repair is a missing feature which we hardly know anything about apart from the claim that "it ll be in the game" at one point. Right now individual modules within the ship cannot be accessed nor does the damage model allow interior damage control. Whats worse.....there is no design document available outlining this mechanic in more detail. While I understand and agree that game development is a fluid process meaning that things can change over time this should not prevent a company which claims to be the "most open development ever" from describing and giving more information about things to come. CiG is remarkably silent when it comes to hard facts and detailed information. Their informational capacity seems to be limited to waving hands and simply murdering listeners with insane amounts of confusing words.

A clear-cut answer or commitment is only something you find in the past when CiG was asking for peoples money. Their behavior has changed ever since they started rolling in millions. Maybe I have a different understanding regarding "respect" or "openness" as outlined in the Pledge. I still consider that piece of commitment legit and valid.

My own observations of CiG reduce their primary efforts to raising money. And it seems to become more apparent that money raising is the driving factor of this company while the development of the game is secondary or simply a tool to allow the priority. This is problematic because it contradicts the original statements given by Chris Roberts. Of course nobody admits this change of goal openly but the companies history seems to make it a frightful and realistic scenario IMO.

ED seems to be the fall-back apology to rationalize and justify Star Citizens shortcomings but again, like it was said so many times....they are not in the same league. Star Citizen also claimed a lot of big words (groundbreaking, never seen before, fidelity, realistic, etc etc) which it has to prove alone. Pointing at other games and stating that "they do it this way too...." doesnt cut it for Star Citizen dont you agree? I too was willing to cut CiG some slack and of course I assumed that at least some of their claims had to be pure hype and marketing fluff but when they claim that everything will be 100% simulated down to your blood and its oxygen load I must say that I was expecting a little more then a simple UI hack that shows me my current heartrate and oxygen reserve.

Disappointment is too weak a word to describe my impression. "I ve been played" or "he lied" are more suitable here.

The list goes on. When I hear "flight model" and even "newtonic correct flight model" I expect a "little" more then being able to fly in 6 directions without atmospheric or gravitational effects and your own mass having zero impact. Chris Roberts has indulged us with an interview outlining gravity and mass yet the actual game doesnt show any sign of either despite sticky surfaces..again..a cheap hack. CiG and its defenders claim that they have the superior ProcGen technology and its already implemented and book it as a victory over ED yet when I compare both games and see what either actually does with this tech ingame I can only say again....not in the same league. I mean ED I actually believe that there are algorithms running in the background creating what we see on the fly. Star Citizen which has proven to have a tiny portfolio of individual tiles which they vary in size and rotation in order to build their couple of moons...not so much. For all we know the whole universe of Star Citizen could be completely handmade. Apart from their claims there really is no indication of proper tech running and creating what we can see. The same counts for NPC AI. Not only is there no AI in the game yet (okay maybe rudimentary...NPC ships) we can expect to get a superior AI based on the descriptions and claims given by CRoberts himself in past presentations. Sim-life equal. But so far its just words.

I mean what is it that forces CiG to rely on such simple, cheap solutions instead of groundbreaking complex background processes we all came to expect? Did WE get it wrong somehow? Or is this an issue of "lost in translation"? Chris Roberts native language is english and he claims to be a game development veteran with decades of experience in relevant fields. How is it possible that he misuses common terms or seems to not understand routine practices of the industry? Are 180 million dollars not enough? Is he lacking sufficient manpower? Does he need more time per patch?

Something is not right in the house CiG but despite its claimed transparency we have absolutely no idea what the reasons are. We know about "blockers" and "netcode" but that doesnt really help especially as it seems to be ongoing reasons which the company cannot fix. Worse, when directly confronted with such questions CiG pulls a 180 and claims to make impressive progress and that they actually have already made fulfilled most of their claims. If you listen to them you might get the impression that Star Citizen is very close to release and almost finished. And then you watch a stream or load it up yourself and wonder if you have the latest version? But no....apparently this basic and very early version of the game is what CiG means when they talk about "awesome" "impressive" and using all those other superlatives.


As I said with other posters I envy you your optimism regarding Star Citizen and CiG but for me there is too much on the net which shatters mine. While most things around the current lawsuit between Crytek and CiG are shrouded apart from the shocking fact that there is a lawsuit in the first place there are a few facts we are able to glean from it until it starts in earnest and shows proper insight into the inner workings of this mess. When CRoberts approached the public in 2012 he claimed he was working on an alpha build with a few people, claimed he personally has coded yet by documents in the lawsuit we now know that it was actually Crytek which created and provided the game trailer as a proof of concept based on which Roberts made his kickstarter and initial millions. So chances are that actual development really only started after the kickstarter ended. Somehow I dont see this as a good point in all this tho.

In the end CiG and Chris Roberts as well as his henchmen have proven time and time again and continue to prove that they are willing to bend facts and outright lie to get what they want. Which apparently is money and not the game. Considering these very simply facts/truths I find it hard to keep CiG in a positive light. Regarding past conflicts I was able to follow and how disputes in the community were handled I can even say I feel resentment towards the company, am glad I am not nor was I ever invested and can confidently state that even in case of a release (truth be told its more a matter of "if" then "when") I wont support them with my own money.

Nevertheless the development and stories surrounding it remain a point of amusement and I continue to find views as yours intriguing

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Golf swing scanning was godlike:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScholarlyClumsyIvorybilledwoodpecker-size_restricted.gif

For real....this was never been seen before and yet people ask for more?

 

[Cobra1984]

I'd sure like to know how base building is going to work in an instanced multiplayer game. They've sold something there that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The base would have to be synched in all instances it appears in, it could be populated in one and empty in another, half constructed in another.

It's all pure fantasy. Plus the delays and messiness of using doorways and walkways between server instances? What happened there was they realised they can't make a seamless mmo out of CryEngine so they're going to try and join a bunch of them together.

What a disaster. None of their network stuff makes any sense whatsoever and base building and land ownership is at best naive and at worst tragic & desperate. But I guess folks are buying into it regardless, it's a shame to see so many still being so duped.

 

[MTBFritz]

I'd sure like to know how base building is going to work in an instanced multiplayer game. They've sold something there that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The base would have to be synched in all instances it appears in, it could be populated in one and empty in another, half constructed in another.

It's all pure fantasy. Plus the delays and messiness of using doorways and walkways between server instances? What happened there was they realised they can't make a seamless mmo out of CryEngine so they're going to try and join a bunch of them together.

What a disaster. None of their network stuff makes any sense whatsoever and base building and land ownership is at best naive and at worst tragic & desperate. But I guess folks are buying into it regardless, it's a shame to see so many still being so duped.

Interesting problem and while I havent thought of this myself its a logical consequence. Yeah it ll be interesting to see what solution/hack they ll come up with for this.

 

[Cobra1984]

Hell, skip the whole “in a good way” — what “existing” game mechanic could even be considered implemented rather than being either not actually a game mechanic to begin with, or at best just some quickly slapped-together placeholder?

They can't even get a ship to sit on a landing pad without wibbling and wobbling all over the place, or a commando to stay in the ship without clipping through it and left hurtling through an empty CryEngine map with the water disabled, they aren't anywhere close to being competent enough to tackle anything resembling a proper game mechanic.

Maybe in ten years they'll be ready to start development on a game, but that rubbish they have right now is going nowhere.

 

[Cobra1984]

Interesting problem and while I havent thought of this myself its a logical consequence. Yeah it ll be interesting to see what solution/hack they ll come up with for this.

The problem arises as a direct and natural outcome of their networking. They started selling the land 4 months before Erin explained their networking solution...

The solution I predict will be another video to tell you this is all long term stuff and it'll be coming in patch x.xx

For everyone else with a basic understanding of the tech, I predict lots of laughing and mocking and probably a handful of 'I told you so's

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I disagree. I think they're doing more to create good game mechanics than certain games that shall not be mentioned. You'll be able to buy land and build bases. You'll be able to eva and repair satellites and ships.

Thing is, you could equally make the same statement about ED in relation to SC. Or Subnautica. Or several others. Hell, many already have featuers like base building (although not always requiring the purchase of land, especially with real word cash - Second Life comes to mind in this regard).

But look at ED's DDF. There is a lot there where us fans could wax lyrical about how in ED we will be able to do X, Y, and Z. Repair sattelites and ships, do EVA, possibly even construct bases.

Thing is, generally speaking, we don't. We tend to be more cautious with our expectations of what will come in the future. We hope a lot of of this is coming, but we also know a lot depends on the future of the game, its continued popularity, the abilities of the devs to implement.

On the SC side it seems like there is no acknowledgement of any risks and that all that has ever been discussed is not only coming, but coming soon.

Maybe i'm showing my personal bias here, but i suspect if you showed a complete outsider both games, informed them of the development history, showed them the long term plans for both games, etc, and then asked them to make a call as to how each game is likely to succeed, i think they would note that ED looks in better shape to succeed and has less risk of failure. The only risk reducer on SC's side is the amount of cash they have generated and continue to generate. But even with unlimited funds there is no guarantee of succeess.

 

[Zetta]

Couple of videos from testing, showing off surface rework

Daymar: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ggp07
Cellin: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ggp05

that 55 fps daymar video , when goes towards the constellation .
i got so excited , imagining hundreds of players , flying them with good fps , and huge worlds ! at first i thought frames were high because ships were disabled ( because cyclone didn't spawn ) , then i saw the constellation and razor . HYPE TRAIN IS LEAVING!!

Nobody else in view and they are getting pretty decent fps, great.
But how does one person getting decent fps suddenly mean hundreds of players all getting decent fps, they must realise that each character/ship is going to cost them fps?

 

[TenakaFurey]

But that's the thing. If they improve performance and netcode, then they're very close to having an amazing game.

No...if they can do that, they'd be very close to having an amazing demo.

Right now, CIG still have to add...a whole fleet of new ships. Integrate servers into the code to allow for their "seamless instancing technology" (which, if I understand Erin correctly in his last interview, isn't happening anyway). Update the existing models and game assets as the quality of many such assets is stuck at 2010 levels. Get their procedural generation routines up and running. And so much, much, much more.

Everything looks so amazing that they don't need much game content. And in two years we'll have video cards that can totally max this game out.

A game that looks amazing with no game content is a game that will last for days. If they are lucky.

 

[Cmdr-Wotherspoon]

A game that looks amazing with no game content is a game that will last for days. If they are lucky.

That's the key. An opportunity to move around and wonder at the beauty of the assets is not a game. Take away the (to my mind) rather pretty-looking objects, and there's almost exactly nothing left. It is not a space game. It is a space where a game may be added later.

 

[TenakaFurey]

It's more than the look. You can walk around your ship, see your cargo, see the engine room etc. Then you can doc your ship in your friend's ship. The planet procedural generation looks convincing.

The planetary procedural generation system isn't working.

If it were, we'd have Stanton.

As for walking around the ship et al...that's about ten minutes of time before it gets old, and not much more - for most players - till it gets boring.
Why do you think players numbers are so low?

I also thought this was vaperware

Is it released? No. Is it stuck in development hell? Yes. Is there any sign of progression? Minor and slow.
Duke NukEm Forever was Vapourware until it was released.
Star Citizen is Vapourware now. Star Citizen is this generations Duke NukEm Forever.

and I still think the whole thing can blow up due to some funding crisis if they don't get the project under control soon. But with 3.0 and 3.1 coming up, it looks like they're getting much closer to their vision.

3.0 was released without much of its content, without much of its mechanics, without the promised gameplay. 3.0 added a couple of moons but they couldn't even get the procedural generation working. What we see in 3.0 is typically handcrafted.

3.1 is focussed on bug fixes and performance issues, and much of the heavy lifting that was supposed to be in 3.1 - the NetCode for example - has been pushed back to 3.2. Which means much of 3.2 will be pushed back to 3.3, because that is simply how things work in reality. And yes - that is the same NetCode that was promised for 2.5, 2.6. 2.7, 3.0 and 3.1 and which should have been in place before CIG even started working on the game.

When you get down to it, what did 3.0 give us that 2.6 didn't have? Several handcrafted moons. Miles Eckhart. Anything else?

Unfortunately, I only play VR games now and I'll have to wait even longer before VR become possible in this game (if ever). But as it is, I may play this game without VR.

VR is not going to happen in Star Citizen.

Wait...let me amend that. Working, viable VR is never going to happen. CIG would need to make major changes to the user interfaces, animations, and existing and planned mechanics to get VR into a viable position. Sure, they could just tack it on - but their existing set up is not designed with VR in mind. And it would take months or years to rework everything to make it viable.

Simply because Chris Robert tells us something does not mean it is workable...we live in reality and reality has limitations that promises do not.

 

[TenakaFurey]

I don't think they'll ever get to do all of those things. I think they already have enough for a game if they focus on optimization and basic content.

They have a flight sim whose mechanics are bad. They have a space sim with no mechanics save wandering around. And they have a FPS system that needs major work to make it viable.

They have no mission system. No procedural generation of planets. No trade, exploration, mining, salvage, etc mechanics or gameplay. Most of their promised features haven't even been started and most ships exist only as JPGs.

They will need at least 2, more likely 3 years, and probably more to get a basic game with basic gameplay, and working mechanics in tot he marketplace. They could reduce that if they cut corners....but then they wouldn't be taking their time to "do it right"

Of course, they are NOT doing it right at all. Which is a major reason why this game is in trouble, why so little has been done. Pretty pictures alone does not explain the sheer lack of work and content on display after five years work.

I haven't played this game in well over a year. I'm a gamer so I'm hoping they succeed. As long as they keep delivering regular playable versions, I think they'll eventually finish or release it unfinished like ED did.

Elite wasn't released "unfinished". Elite was released with future expansions in mind and it released with what was planned...a space sim with mining, salvage, exploration, trade and combat mechanics in a multiplayer universe.

There is a difference between "unfinished" and "expansion" and it is a popular ploy by Star Citizen backers to mix up the two.

Elite is "finished"...and has had two XPacs released to expand upon it with additional features, ships, fixes and the like.

Star Citizen is not "finished"....nowhere near finished. And while we all hope it succeeds, few here are indoctrinated into the Cult of the Citizen. We don't make silly excuses for the lack of progress or try to explain away idiotic decisions by the claim "you don't understand programming".

Many of us here in this discussion, on this forum, DO understand programming. DO understand the game industry. A couple here even work min the industry. We DO know what we are talking about.

Well, some of us. I've been out of it too long to be "uptodate"

Do I think CIG are taking you all for a ride? Sure. Of course they are. I don't know where the money is going, but it isn't being spent on those demos that CIG are releasing. 3.0 is not something that should take 5 years and $150 million to make. I've seen proof of concept systems that were more involved...granted, not as good looking, but more involved.

I look back at stuff Chris Roberts said about how games developers fool publishers. And I smile...knowing that he is doing the same to his backers. Which is basically what he did to Microsoft and other publishers. Of course, perhaps I should point out that publishers aren't quite as dumb as Chris Roberts supposes with those comments. A willingness to overlook is not quite the same thing as a lack of knowledge. Eventually, they do lose patience....even with the golden boys, as Chris Roberts found out with Freelancer.

I suppose you could argue he IS keeping his word...he is treating you all with the same respect (lack of, that is) as he shows publishers.

Do I think CIG will release something? Sure. It just won't be what you THINK he is creating.

A lot of what the backers are waiting for is stuff they have created themselves. They took a lot of (deliberately) vague commentary from CIG and used it to spin out heir own fantasy world. CIG should have nailed down what they were creating years ago...that they didn't is one reasons this project is so far behind and has so little to show.

But they cannot put such decisions off forever and they are already starting to nail down the mechanics the game will have. And they are facing heat as a result, and are pulling back on those decisions leaving them with a quandary.

How can CIG narrow down the mechanics into something useable and viable to add to the game, without ticking off all those players who are expecting the gameplay THEY envisage and have created in their own headspace, and without CIG backtracking and caving in with excuses that their plans were misunderstood and that of course they still plan to include all of the elements players expect, even though many of them are mutually exclusive?

Assuming CIG survive the lawsuit...and being blunt with you, that isn't a given (far from it)...they will release something. But that "something" will not be the game that was promised, and it cannot be the game backers expect. Performance realities alone will dictate certain limitations that CIG cannot simply work around. The speed of light is a constant and there is only so much date that can be passed through a pipe.

CIGs planned level of detail would be difficult enough to reproduce in a standalone single player game without spending money on a monster rig and two or three years more development aren't going to change things for the better. There were better looking games in 2012 when development started, and what was once impressive has become quite blasé. CIG are continually upping the detail of their graphics, but that in itself is a never ending cycle...one that can never finish and it keeps requiring ever more power to work.

And that is on top of the issues with networking and servers and instancing and more.

I'm sure CIG will release something...I just don't know what.