The Star Citizen Thread v9

Because ED is a regular, released, game. It is played by your average gamer, with all the expectations, hope, frustration etc that comes with it. SC has, in general gaming forums, a meme-like reputation. They aren't playing SC, have no stake in this, so generally don't particularly care. If something good eventually comes that'll be great, but for now SC is simply irrelevant to gamers. The people who backed either got a refund, wrote it off as a loss or believe in the idea you can take as long as you need to get to the ideal game. If CIG would 'release' SC tomorrow, the average gamer would take a look at it and tear it apart in a way that would make NMS' launch seem successful. Until then they are in a reasonably safe place as long as they carefully manage backer expectations.

I'm sure you're right. It still sounds like fraud to me though.
TBH I have no stake in the game. I've not backed it, and was never going to ... I thought Wing Commander was a cheap ripoff of Elite back in the day, so unlikely to support a new one. Still, the original game got made into a movie, that while not the best, made probably more cash than the game. I suspect the same will happen with SC, except the movie will be about the hype for the game, rather than a "Let's Play" of the game itself, this time.
 
If the devs at FDev worked as fast as these guys, then the forum would be calling for heads on spikes. Why does CIG get a pass?

FDev employees can also jump on a livestream at a couple of weeks notice and play the internal build demonstrating new features, gameplay and ships.

They do it with enthusiasm, energy and a genuine love for their work which comes across in spades.

Especially Ed, he loves it, look at his little face. Brilliant guy, real enthusiasm.

Professional devs with a solid working game that they want to make better. Anyone can see it, it's right there on the screen.

CIG devs stumble through Q&As, never show anything outside of an editor, everything is 'in the future', look tired, bored and utterly disenchanted, and frankly the whole thing is a scripted marketing exercise that they are contractually obliged to do.

I'm getting to an answer to your question, it's coming...

FDev have their game and can play it and be part of the community that plays it.

CIG don't have a game, can't play it and so can only be part of the marketing and crowdfunding.

FDev's community has grown up around the GAME. My commander is 4 years in game now, since whenever the last beta/gamma wipe was. I'm invested in the gameworld, so are the devs - they built it and manage it and develop it into the future.

CIG's community has grown up around the MARKETING. 7 years of it. This has created an entirely different animal. They don't have their game yet. They are invested in something simultaneously intangible and unachievable. So are the devs.

There is much much more I could say about all of this but I think this makes the point and answers the question.

If ED didn't release in 2014 the community would by now be just like CIG's - a community built around endless marketing instead of a released, working, AAA quality multiplatform title. Everyone interested in a game would have floated away, leaving only those happy to dream and imagine.

It's cheap enough and easy enough to keep giving that type of community videos to hang their dreams on.
 
[h=1]Answer the Call: How Should CIG Market to New Players?[/h]
[video=youtube;JRnrnH1xOtw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnrnH1xOtw[/video]

I kind of like Twerks new format so I occasionally listen in to see how people stand on this.

The comment section seems to agree that SC is not ready for a marketing drive because of a possible horrible first impression. Todays cash cows (aka gamers) can be fickle and used to being pampered. I had my fair share of games that I personally liked but which didnt take the gamer at the hand to lead him/her through the initial experience. I m sure these games lost a lot of potential customers because the majority of people never invested the effort or time to work through the front-up obstacles. From what I read about Star Citizen it seems that the entry experience is very unpolished and not very intuitive so without work on that aspect I also think a major marketing drive would do more harm then good.

One caller goes off trying to market Star Citizen as all things that its eventually going to be able to do. Classes, social experience, heavy fighting everywhere. I cant help but think "isnt that what CiG did for the last 6 years already? Show and talk about whats eventually going to be in the game. We know that these "visions" and the actual pre-alpha difer drastically so I m not sure this would help any further.

Personally I m not sure what CiG could possibly market at this point. The project is very limited, hardly optimized, leaves a lot of people alone with performance issues and is full of bugs and glitches. They already have free-flight weekends and many gaming sites already report this so what else? Word-of-mouth by the existing community? Probably will not add coverage over the gaming sites. Additional advertisement on newspapers, TV, stream etc? Costly and again....it needs to have a lot of shiny and polished stuff in order to stand out among all other adverts for other games in short....generate interest.

Will these adverts be better then the existing CiG videos that already exist and are played on many sites and are freely accessible on YT? Fact is that jumping into the game at this very moment doesnt reflect the videos that are out there. And many newcomers wont have months of "adaptation" behind them which helps them to see things differently.

Results will be very mixed of course. Some people will recognize the "potential" and get hooked, others will fall into the negative range of the spectrum (which is bigger because neutral = hater). Whoever is indecided will probably be looking further into the topic and come across the trench war raging on various sites. I m not sure the overall community reaction to questions and less-then-full-praise is helpful here.

So IMO....I dont think CiG can do anything more to market Star Citizen then it already does. What do you folks think?
 
I'm sure you're right. It still sounds like fraud to me though.
TBH I have no stake in the game. I've not backed it, and was never going to ... I thought Wing Commander was a cheap ripoff of Elite back in the day, so unlikely to support a new one. Still, the original game got made into a movie, that while not the best, made probably more cash than the game. I suspect the same will happen with SC, except the movie will be about the hype for the game, rather than a "Let's Play" of the game itself, this time.

WC the Movie had a 30m budget and grossed 11 million or so at the box office. It was both a commercial and critical failure, which is a major reason why the industry didn't give CR another chance in that role.
 
So IMO....I dont think CiG can do anything more to market Star Citizen then it already does. What do you folks think?

I dont think they need to do anything more. Every year they grab +- 30 million, without fail. Regardless of where that money actually comes from, whatever they are doing simply works. So they can just keep adding more locations and ships, work on stability and performance and pump out vids and screenshots.

If ED didn't release in 2014 the community would by now be just like CIG's - a community built around endless marketing instead of a released, working, AAA quality multiplatform title. Everyone interested in a game would have floated away, leaving only those happy to dream and imagine.

This.
 
They already send releases out to all the games press and very few of the game sites run them any more. Those that do tend to do so in a mocking fashion, I bet Bree Royce enjoys seeing a CIG press release in the work email inbox for example...

They also ended their contract with their previous (expensive) PR company earlier this year and went with a freelance guy. I have the details of this, you can find it yourself with some googling anyway.

What's happening recently is a lot more twitch and youtube streamers since 3.3 and 3.3.5. You'll never see gamers so turned off by something than watching these streams and reading the chats. It's a dreadful boring mess. None of it works.

You can't market it to gamers. It's far too broken. You could market it to investors and try and get another 3 years out of it.
 
They already send releases out to all the games press and very few of the game sites run them any more. Those that do tend to do so in a mocking fashion, I bet Bree Royce enjoys seeing a CIG press release in the work email inbox for example...

They also ended their contract with their previous (expensive) PR company earlier this year and went with a freelance guy. I have the details of this, you can find it yourself with some googling anyway.

What's happening recently is a lot more twitch and youtube streamers since 3.3 and 3.3.5. You'll never see gamers so turned off by something than watching these streams and reading the chats. It's a dreadful boring mess. None of it works.

You can't market it to gamers. It's far too broken. You could market it to investors and try and get another 3 years out of it.

So basically what Star Citizen is after 7 years of development is a tech demo that you could present to potential investors to generate interest? That triggers a kind of deja-vu :D
 
In fact it shouldn't be a surprise to see SC streamers discussing marketing, because that's all they know.

If there was a game there they could be discussing how best to show it off, plan some exciting streams and events - like Dr Kai's expeditions, PvP events, even Isinona's amazing videos in Elite.

But no, it has to be a dry conversation about marketing because marketing is all they have to work with.
 
So IMO....I dont think CiG can do anything more to market Star Citizen then it already does. What do you folks think?

You can market finished product. 'Marketing' early access product is very, very hard, and you actually eating up your future profits because you leave lasting bad impression on players. For example, see how long it took for FD to change perception about Horizons...people saw ED in the middle of the first year, said meh, and did not come back for 2 years...and lot of players even don't know Horizons and landing on planets exist.

First impressions is very hard to erase. Only fool could try to market SC for mass appeal at this point.
 
What specifically is not working?

Here's a handy hot take. A quote from a few moments ago on the SA forums

6TtpWKc.png

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...255-patch-notes

I love their "Major Known Issues" because they somehow shift without any of the previous [stuff] being resolved. What does that list even signify? It's been over a month, and:

Getting into the Aurora's airlock still kills you
Trade consoles still choke and die if you try to sell more than 1000 UEC in goods at once
Missiles are still completely broken
Mission boxes still evaporate if you look at them funny and half the ships in the game can't carry them
The QT allowing you to go beyond your fuel cap issue still exists

Or perhaps you'd prefer the same user in narrative form?

Just today I went out to do some missions because I had lost literally all my credits in a failed trade run, and I wanted to see if it really was possible to work up to better paying jobs. I took a mission to "Find the crew of the wrecked starfarer" and flew to it in my Aurora MR, the pathetic starter ship. When I got to the wreck, there was an NPC cutlass flying around so I fought it. I shot that for 5 minutes straight, literally, until all my guns were out of ammo. He was still alive at the end of it, because the starter ship is that worthless. I flew away from him and got back to the wreck. I had to find 7 bodies in a ship that was constantly glitching in and out of existence, turning transparent, and flickering like it was haunted. The bodies had no markers and were physics enabled, so I also had to pray that no other commando had accidentally nudged one and sent it spinning into the void, because at that point the mission would be impossible to complete. It took me, no joke, 30 minutes of flying the corridors of the wreck before I found all 7. For that I received a payout of 600 credits. I went to get back into my ship and the ladder glitch killed me instantly. Respawning at Port Olisar, I took a cargo delivery mission- pick up at one point, put down somewhere else. I spawned a ship and flew to the pick up point on a planet, but I forgot to slow down early enough (read: 1+ minute out) and slammed into the planet and died instantly, losing my ship. I spawned another one and flew back, crawling slowly down to the planet this time. I got out and went inside to speak to an NPC at a desk who made mouth motions but didn't have any voiced lines. I selected "Make a pickup" and he mouthed something and shook his head. I tried that two more times and nothing. I was about to give up when I saw the machine next to him that said PICK UP AND DROP OFF. It didn't highlight or show as interactive but when I moused over PICK UP and clicked, a locker opened and a box popped out. Why did they put an NPC next to it and give him a pick up option? No idea. But I took the box and flew to my drop-off point, an R&R station. Unfortunately the "Drop Off" waypoint was in space, 300m below the entire station, so I didn't know which place I was supposed to go into. While standing in the station and holding the box, I hit F1 to bring up my menu and read the contracts, hoping to see some instructions. My commando performed his wrist animation, instantly vaporizing the box he was holding. Just poof, gone, no longer exists and the mission is now impossible to complete. So long, another 500 credits.

Could I play this for 50h? Yes, easily, the content takes forever to get done. Would I, at any point, come close to having fun? No. The game is a fest, and it isn't getting any better, and no amount of features is going to make a game good when the simplest act of picking up and moving a box is a nerve wracking ordeal that is likely to get you killed. Star Citizen is a game for people who cannot see the trees for the forest. It is a game of a million terrible bugs and forgotten details, that add up to a very pretty picture.

TLDR: Lots of things

EDIT: I just needed to be sure that everyone knew the ladder bug:

ClassicOilyAmericanlobster-max-14mb.gif


Obviously there are loads more broken things, but this seems like a convenient sample ;)
 
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Here's a handy hot take. A quote from a few moments ago on the SA forums

Or perhaps you'd prefer the same user in narrative form?

TLDR: Lots of things

That sounds horrible. Can anybody rebuke these conditions as made-up lies? The "never happened to me" statements dont really help me also while its tempting to accuse the player reporting in as "clueless" why not focus on the stuff he talks about instead? Anybody?
 

Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
If the devs at FDev worked as fast as these guys, then the forum would be calling for heads on spikes. Why does CIG get a pass?

If SC development is slow or delayed it's because Chris Roberts is a "perfectionist", if any other does the same it's because "the devs are lazy".
 
WC the Movie had a 30m budget and grossed 11 million or so at the box office. It was both a commercial and critical failure, which is a major reason why the industry didn't give CR another chance in that role.

This and the fact that Kevin Costner sued the living snot out of Chris Crobear for breach of contract, after Kostner was done with him Crobear was forced to sell his company.
 
What specifically is not working?

You must be kidding me.

Pull up any random stream. Have a look at this one for example, I've linked it from 50mins in so that you don't have to watch:
1. A 10 minute slideshow of stills
2. 30 minutes of corridors and travel

https://youtu.be/ualYLvVn4ZA?t=3048

This is a multicrewed ship coming under fire from other ships. It lasts for 30 seconds before the engine falls apart.

First of all the networking hangs up completely, you can hear players in the turrets complain first of all about lag, then about dropping to single digit frame rates.

The player doing the streaming leaves the turret via a mocap animation, then clips through the ship and falls to the ground. You can see that none of the debris is using any of the CE physics layer. The other players fall to the ground too. The ship is still hanging there and there are still shots coming in from somewhere, even though the other ships are all stuck in position - basically the networking has hung up and the client is looping the last data it had. It doesn't time out, nor does it trap the disconnect. This is BASIC STUFF.

The players are all now 'stuck' on the ground and cannot move and have to restart.

So, that's your networking not working, there isn't a trap for disconnect, that's 30mins of corridors and travel time for 30 seconds of broken networking and a restart.


Here's another clip from the same streamer, honestly these aren't difficult to find, they're the norm:

https://youtu.be/f3hfS4Lr8Yg?t=1012


This is 15 minutes into the stream, trying to get the NPC mission giver to work. You can see the facial animation system is broken and the audio dialogue not being played. Both of those are problems in the client. Backing away from the NPC re-triggers the dialogue, this time the audio works but you can see the facial system still isn't working. This is BASIC STUFF in ANY ENGINE. Then the audio breaks again.

So that's a client side system that isn't working, a really really basic one. That's tells you something about what that basic system is sitting on top of.


Let's just click on a random part of that video:

25m46s

The streamer is testing FOIP;

"Selfie? Does that selfie work? No. When I'm walking? No. Ah, it does when I'm walking but when I do 'selfie' it doesn't, so that's another thing I noticed. So when you do selfie cam it doesn't work"


Random click, 35mins in:

Here we are in an elevator. The engine is struggling to hold on to the location of the other commando in the elevator - this is maybe a server side problem, the servers are either not updating the client or there's a problem with co ordinate systems (which is my suspicion). Either way you can see that the client isn't getting the updates in time, and in fact isn't doing any smoothing in between updates.

Elevator door opens and we see another commando first of all a foot above the elevator floor, then the client moves him a foot *underneath* the elevator floor so he's clipping out of it.

Then we see the player attempt to 'invite to party' several times and that doesn't work either. Player gives up and says, "it doesn't seem to work yet".



*CLICK*

40m41s

Another remote commando and the engine is struggling with his location inside the world. Glitchy. What on earth are they doing with these co ordinates for remote characters? It's handing the rotational component and even the remote animation components so this problem really should not be happening - this is indicative of deeper problems with their co-ordinate system(s), origins etc.


And it goes on - there are reports of 3.3 and 3.3.5f just like this. I've watched hours of these streams because I want to know what the heck I'm talking about. None of it works. This isn't even at a point where you could start bugfixing it, none of these systems work, not the networking, animation system in the client, there's something VERY ODD about how the client is placing remote characters in the map which is indicative of a very deep problem in their co ordinate/base 64 system, there are design flaws too, for example the mocap animations aren't context sensitive nor is there collision detection during the anim. So if you try to exit your ship whilst it's lying on its side the anim will clip your character through the ground. Compare that to the system GTAV and RDR2 use for example, you are comparing a static, expensive mocap solution to a modern, slick, dynamic, context sensitive one. You can't fix it, it's broken both in its design and in its execution, much like the flight model is.


I've also seen mission boxes vanish when the mobiglass is brought up. I've seen the outside world vanish when a commando steps inside a ship. Those aren't bugs, that's an entire base system not working.

It's a g mess and it's a disgrace that they have a store front selling assets for it.
 
I've also seen mission boxes vanish when the mobiglass is brought up.
A lot of things break with the mobiglass, starting with the mobiglass itself.
I have a slightly different list of things that are not working i'll highlight some random (OTOH) differences:
- Doors still show a lot of glitches with maps and random polygons appearing or disappearing
- Physic grid transitions are still a huge mess, they can kill characters, fling them into orbit, etc.
- Jittery physics with ships that weight a few grams (see them flipping around after landing on a rock..) or same for vehicles (like big 4x4 rovers just flipping over too)
- Oh and speaking of vehicles, Nox is utterly broken (does whatever it wants but certainly not hover), Retaliator cannot even fly anymore...
- Ships still appear without doors or equipment after spawning
- People falling through the floor at random locations, then through the planet itself, or doing 3 meter high jumps without effort (such realism !) but falling from a few centimeters but with a map transition will break their legs...
- and yeah missiles are utterly broken...
 
A lot of things break with the mobiglass, starting with the mobiglass itself.
I have a slightly different list of things that are not working i'll highlight some random (OTOH) differences:

You just don't understand game development!

- Doors still show a lot of glitches with maps and random polygons appearing or disappearing

Doors in Star Citizen are so high-poly and stuffed with fidelity that your GPU isn't capable of rendering them.

- Physic grid transitions are still a huge mess, they can kill characters, fling them into orbit, etc.

Physics grids are tuned to perfection. Newtonian mechanics are completely implemented. It's just perceived as bad.

- Jittery physics with ships that weight a few grams (see them flipping around after landing on a rock..) or same for vehicles (like big 4x4 rovers just flipping over too)

Gravity is implemented in 64 bit fidelity. You are only used to analogue gravity.

- Oh and speaking of vehicles, Nox is utterly broken (does whatever it wants but certainly not hover), Retaliator cannot even fly anymore...

Flight and hover are currently undergoing rework and the final go/no-go from Genuine Roberts, as soon as the required pixels are made green or blue.

- Ships still appear without doors or equipment after spawning

Did you buy doors and equipment for those ships?

- People falling through the floor at random locations, then through the planet itself, or doing 3 meter high jumps without effort (such realism !) but falling from a few centimeters but with a map transition will break their legs...

Sandwurmie nests are not to be trifled with lightly. Hidden spring traps are part of the visceral FPS combat more lethal than CS. You need a rogue in your party to properly find, warn of, and disarm such things.

- and yeah missiles are utterly broken...

Missiles are implemented perfectly and have been in-game for years. You simply cannot appreciate the magnificence of their design.

Buy an Idris!
 
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