The Star Citizen Thread

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Just played the AC for the first time..

The upside:
It runs better.

The downsides:
Everything else, tbh.
I don't know what they did with the visuals, but they look really bad. I'm not seeing anything "next-gen" about how the game looks...
The sound is an utter joke. It brings into very sharp contrast just how good the sound engineers at Frontier are.
Flight feel... horrid. Slow, floaty footballs bobbing in a lake would describe it best.
Controls - default mappings are straight-up "***" headscratchers, and there's no custom mappings to be had.

So.. Yeah. I'm very, very disappointed about how bad SC's dogfighting module is, especially considering how many delays it had.
 

Boomotang

Banned
Well, I was planning on posting some of my detailed opinions here tonight or tomorrow after a chance to play it for a few hours with my configured controls. But after reading the last night's worth of pages of this drivel I've lost all hope that this community can respond to something of different tastes with any objectivity.

The personal attacks on CR and team continue. The detractors continue to misconstrue their communications and see 'nastiness' where there is none. Most are more concerned with drama than gameplay. The thread is 90% noise. So I'll just post my first impressions and move along.

So I finally got about half an hour of time with Free Flight last night in both the Hornet and 300i. I expected there to be issues with getting my controllers working from reports about it, and it didn't work right off the bat. I've got a Warthog HOTAS, T16000m, 2 Cougar MFDs, and Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals all plugged in to my system. BUT I was prepared. I have ED to thank for this because I figured out some 3rd party software solutions while ED was having their own issues with multiple controller support. I actually don't have to go as far as I did for ED in gaff taping up my toe pedals into their middle positions. :cool:

My setup involves the use of UJR, vJoy, and TARGET. All I need to do before launching SC is run my TARGET profile and launch UJR. I'll probably continue to use it even when full support in SC is implemented because it allows me to merge my toe pedals into one axis. Because I use TARGET I can map all my controller buttons to key presses, and customize the layout any way I want. I didn't have time to get around to that yet though, so I only tested out the flight model and a little bit of pew pew.

I mapped all my controller axes the way I wanted, with rudder controlling roll and my stick's X Axis controlling yaw. This will help with aiming especially given that yaw is equally powerful to pitch. (Plus it matches up with the in-game modelled controls, which are very cool that they're already in by the way. Although the in-game pedals for roll (when your character moves his legs) seem to be inverted on the Hornet.) I have always been a proponent of roll/pitch/limited yaw vs yaw/pitch/roll. But I'll get over it, and I actually don't mind the latter too much either.

I am honestly perplexed with most assessments of the flight model here. I think it's in a great starting place. Unlike many of you, I DO 'feel' the ships' 'weight'. I wouldn't want single seat fighters to turn much slower than they do now. I think the cap speed could be increased though. That's what I think is it's main issue. You never feel like you're going very fast until using the afterburner. The top speed should probably be in between where it is now and the afterburner top speed, closer to the top afterburner speed. In the 300i it takes 8-10 seconds to get to a full stop from afterburner. So if they keep the thrusters' power roughly the same but bump up the speed limit, then I think it would be in a very good place.

But that's all subjective. We're all very good at that here. Why don't we talk about it objectively.

"No inertia." These are the claims made here. What does that mean? It means that when you release your controls your ship stops reorienting itself instantly. Zero seconds. What do we have? Well, in the 300i it takes three whole seconds to stop rotating after snapping the joystick back to the middle. That's quite a different story than zero seconds.....

This is also what some of you are referring to as 'sluggishness' or 'floaty'. It's not sluggish. It's inertia. I'm sure it will be tweaked, but I'm pretty happy with how powerful the maneuvering thrusters are on the Hornet and 300i. You can make tighter corrections by applying counter moves on your controls. For example, when applying counter moves I can consistently stop my ship rotating (without overcorrecting) in 1 second as opposed to the 3 seconds. This feels right to me for ships that are supposed to be maneuverable.

Even with all IFCS features on, there is still a considerable amount of 'drifting' in hard turns at full throttle. You can clearly see it if you look at your surroundings like asteroids, space stations, and the 'space dust'. If you pull up on your stick for a rough 90˚ turn during full throttle it takes about 5 seconds before your vector corrects itself down your bore sight. During that time you can clearly see via 'space dust' that your ship is traveling 'downwards'.

I do hope that they eventually implement the ability to strafe in the more restrictive IFCS modes if it isn't there yet. I haven't had a chance to play around with them much. But I heard that it wasn't possible.

The X axis seems to have an increased deadzone while the Y axis doesn't. I can work around this with TARGET in the meantime, but I'm sure it will be fixed. The Y axis seems perfect with no noticeable deadzone. Other than the X axis deadzone, I don't have any other joystick issues. I didn't notice the deadzone issue while trying out mouse-controlled-flying.

Now to the dreaded mouse controls. I don't think they will be a balancing issue in the long run and here's why. Once TrackIR/OR is fully implemented we will be able to aim our gimballed weapons with our head movement. Not sure if OR already works that way or not. That should settle down most of the short sighted HOTAS crowd once they realize that. I think there's a lot of balancing to go still with gimballed vs fixed weaponry. I'm pretty sure everything is gimballed at the moment, which will definitely change.

The sound is obviously lacking. But I was expecting that considering what it sounded like during PAX. If I remember right, they only hired their main sound guy a couple of months ago. I have no doubts that it will get up to par given some time. It will help a lot with perception of speed along with some tweaks to the 'space dust'. The maps are a bit small, but it's alpha and there's no need to get worked up about that yet. Their development plans are obviously already addressing that.

The graphics and details are amazing. I love how the engine nozzles contract for higher speeds and expand for slower ones. It's pretty cool to have your character moving all his limbs already to match your inputs. Those animations are choppy, but that's just alpha polish level. I'm running on 'high graphics' with a butter smooth frame rate. i7 six core with a GTX 680, 1920x1200 resolution. Oh, and I love the orchestral score and themes that they are going for.

And finally about the 3PV 'easy mode' that someone ''''confirmed''' ( :rolleyes: ) from an xbox-controller-user's video. It has already been CONFIRMED that HUD elements, like the target lock graphic, appearing in 3PV are a BUG that they are aware of.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2673185/#Comment_2673185

It is indeed a bug. Things that are created AFTER the HUD is hidden don't get hidden

But don't let that stop you from jumping to false conclusions without considering that you're playing an alpha. There are bugs. Bugs aren't intended features. Get used to it.
 
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So.. Yeah. I'm very, very disappointed about how bad SC's dogfighting module is, especially considering how many delays it had.
Remember though that Alpha is Alpha. By the same token Alpha 1.0 of ED had:

No stations
No FSD
No hyperspace
No trading
No MP
.....

So this is kind of expected with an Alpha of SC. It's their first release, so cut them a little slack, give decent and meaningful feedback to them, and assist them in making a better game.
 
Interesting, if you look at the answers so far, it's almost as if folks have no idea - or can't differentiate between arcade and sim in the responses grouping.

I honestly think many people are unable to make the distinction between the two. Whether that's due to lack of experience, or down to stupidity - who can say?

Remember though that Alpha is Alpha. By the same token Alpha 1.0 of ED had:

No stations
No FSD
No hyperspace
No trading
No MP
.....

So this is kind of expected with an Alpha of SC. It's their first release, so cut them a little slack, give decent and meaningful feedback to them, and assist them in making a better game.


Very true. But in the first release of Elite, they control system was actually very good, and they had good fundamentals. Where as in Arena Commander they don't have that at all.
 
Im sorry but someone on SC forums said it better

Elite Dangerous Sidewinder -pitch rate - standard 18s , optimal thrust 9.6 sec for a loop (it's second most maneuvrable ship there)
War thunder KI43 (a very maneuvrable japanese plane) -pitch rate - 12s for a loop
FW190 A5-u2 ( heavy fighter ) -pitch rate - 16s for a loop

StarCitizen Hornet pitch rate 4 seconds
300i pitch rate 3.4 seconds

That lends intself to turreting gameplay right there

boring.....
 
So I finally had a go at arena commander and it looks good, it runs smooth.

But on doing and keeping a hard left or right with mouse control it turns quickly, then slowly then quickly then slowly, it is smooth but the turn speed keeps changing even though I have it on maximum left. It is weird, cannot think why they have designed it like this. It makes the ship feel like you are controlling a camel riding on a boat.

And the joystick controls are not good.

MAD.
 
Remember though that Alpha is Alpha. By the same token Alpha 1.0 of ED had:

No stations
No FSD
No hyperspace
No trading
No MP
.....

So this is kind of expected with an Alpha of SC. It's their first release, so cut them a little slack, give decent and meaningful feedback to them, and assist them in making a better game.

Well, yes, but,
Arena Commander first public release (let's not debate over 1.0 vs. 0.8 - it's literally meaningless fluff):
No stations
No FSD
No hyperspace
No trading
Alright, they have MP. Granted.
No sounds (worth discussing)
Very unfinished flight model
No control customization
6 extra months of work.

And I can't really cut them any slack, considering how you need to pay extra money to fly the test ships. In Elite, we have in-game mechanics that allow us to test-fly all ships the devs have implemented.
In SC's alpha(!), if you want to test-fly a Hornet, you better pay upwards of $140.
Or, say, if you want to bring a competitive ship into the multiplayer PvP. You gotta pay $ for it.

Edit:
This video best exemplifies how the ship control feels...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3DKM622jA
 
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...
So I finally got about half an hour of time with Free Flight last night in both the Hornet and 300i. I expected there to be issues with getting my controllers working from reports about it, and it didn't work right off the bat. I've got a Warthog HOTAS, T16000m, 2 Cougar MFDs, and Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals all plugged in to my system. BUT I was prepared. I have ED to thank for this because I figured out some 3rd party software solutions while ED was having their own issues with multiple controller support. I actually don't have to go as far as I did for ED in gaff taping up my toe pedals into their middle positions. :cool:
...

That's a very long post you have written. May be I missed this but have you tried combat in Vanduul swarm? Or have you tried only Free Flight model? These modes are incomparable.

In a free flight mode I am a master of FA OFF in ED. However when it comes to the combat I can only use FA ON effectively.

The same applies to AC, you can feel that you have mastered your controls in Free Flight but when it comes to combat everything might change.
 
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Boomotang

Banned
That's a very long post you have written. May be I missed this but have you tried combat in Vanduul swarm? Or have you tried only Free Flight model? These modes are incomparable.

In a free flight mode I am a master of FA OFF in ED. However when it comes to the combat I can only use FA ON effectively.

The same applies to AC, you can feel that you have mastered your controls in Free Flight but when it comes to combat everything might change.

Even if things did change, like you said, it would only get harder. That doesn't change what I posted. The flight model is the same in both modes.
 
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Well, yes, but,
Arena Commander first public release (let's not debate over 1.0 vs. 0.8 - it's literally meaningless fluff):

6 extra months of work.

I'd like to emphasize this point, because I was berated time and again by SC fans that Elite has been in development for years while SC was just starting out yesterday since they had to hire people and move offices and whatnot.

David Braben stated here: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=455714#post455714

In that case... ;)

Since there seems to be a big disinformation campaign against Elite, claiming that Elite IV (Dangerous) has been in development since 2005.

Can we get, from the horses mouth, the head honcho, the big kahoonah, exactly what has been developed, when, and for how long? My understanding is that most of the development took place after the kickstarter and it was only skunkworks up until then.

Can you end the debate, once and for all? :D

There has been 'skunk-works' development, on and off for quite some time, but full on development is mostly since (and somewhat during) the Kickstarter campaign. So you are correct.
 
Even if things did change, like you said, it would only get harder. That doesn't change what I posted. The flight model is the same in both modes.

Agreed but that's not the flight model in Free Flight that causes all this discussion but the flight model in combat, which is significantly easier using KB/M than joystick. You can simply stay in one spot, rotate around, point the target with the mouse and destroy it. This does not require any skill.

Here is one of the posts from RSI forum:
I currently enjoy the M+KB set up. its very instinctive and simple to learn. its good for the game when anyone can hop in and play it."

Sorry, but any Sim game is a disaster if everyone can master it in a matter of minutes.

I am playing ED from the very beginning and there are still a lot of things to learn - this makes the game interesting and fun.
 
I miss being able to use lateral and vertical thrusters with the flight computer on, but if I could rebind the controls and get some practice in, the full mode switch seems like it wouldn't be an issue. Just need to get those full rebinds in.

The 300i pretty easily knocks the pilot out with g-safe off. With rebinding and a bit more freedom on lateral/vertical thruster control a pilot could fight pretty ruthlessly within tunnel vision.
 
I quite like it, finding learning the controls tricky on my warthog, but its at least playable now..

and very pretty

vlcsnap-2014-06-05-18h12m52s42_zps194ce702.png

vlcsnap-2014-06-05-18h11m12s55_zps4aa32aff.png
 
I miss being able to use lateral and vertical thrusters with the flight computer on, but if I could rebind the controls and get some practice in, the full mode switch seems like it wouldn't be an issue. Just need to get those full rebinds in.

The 300i pretty easily knocks the pilot out with g-safe off. With rebinding and a bit more freedom on lateral/vertical thruster control a pilot could fight pretty ruthlessly within tunnel vision.

You can only use vertical and lateral thruster in the decoupled mode only, however you LOSE roll in this mode. Another mess up by CIG.
 
Sorry, but any Sim game is a disaster if everyone can master it in a matter of minutes.
OH MY GOD YES. Finally, i don't care how the realism or game is in Star Citizen - if it's overall easy its bad for gameplay.

I just got out of a game in War Thunder Simulation mode, it was me (Last one left) vs 6 players and 1 bot. Simulation mode in War thunder is mouse emulation (not catch the mouse) and joystick only, or gamepad if you want (xbox360).

3 Of them crashed (Bot and 2 players) i took out the other 4. in a 1v1, another 1v1 and a 2v1.

It was amazing, in my Spitfire F. XVI (mark 16) vs 109 K4's and 190 D9's

Gonna record the replay :)
 
Yeah, what's up with the coupled/decoupled controls?
Coupled, you can accel/decel/pitch/yaw/roll & strafe up/down. Decoupled, you can't accel, can't roll, can strafe sideways and front/back(????)..

Wat. What's wrong with a simple, normal flight where you can accel/decel/pitch/yaw/roll/strafe updown/strafe sideways ?
 
Their funding graph went up like a rocket.

I've defended CIG's honour over a great many things, but up with this I will not put! The article links to a graph with a Y axis that doesn't start at zero. That's an amateur stats mistake, and it makes an increase slightly over double the previous value look like a five-times increase. They'll be using pie charts next...

In all seriousness though, Chris Roberts can take some flack, but the 200-odd people working underneath him are clearly putting in stupendous hours for what is unlikely to be stellar pay. We can bemoan the design decisions, but we should also take a moment to congratulate all those that poured their hearts into the project on releasing their first major milestone.

So congratulations worker-citizens! Your hard work is starting to pay off :)
 
Yeah, what's up with the coupled/decoupled controls?
Coupled, you can accel/decel/pitch/yaw/roll & strafe up/down. Decoupled, you can't accel, can't roll, can strafe sideways and front/back(????)..

Wat. What's wrong with a simple, normal flight where you can accel/decel/pitch/yaw/roll/strafe updown/strafe sideways ?

I can do all of those in decoupled mode... I can accelerate, strafe sideways, and move front and back, and move up and down. Only think that cant be done is rolling, but who cares? What would rolling even do in decoupled mode, rolling makes no sense in decoupled, it wont make you dodge bullets, and wont affect your manoeuvrability.
 
I've defended CIG's honour over a great many things, but up with this I will not put! The article links to a graph with a Y axis that doesn't start at zero. That's an amateur stats mistake, and it makes an increase slightly over double the previous value look like a five-times increase. They'll be using pie charts next...

In all seriousness though, Chris Roberts can take some flack, but the 200-odd people working underneath him are clearly putting in stupendous hours for what is unlikely to be stellar pay. We can bemoan the design decisions, but we should also take a moment to congratulate all those that poured their hearts into the project on releasing their first major milestone.

So congratulations worker-citizens! Your hard work is starting to pay off :)

Well it's not a stats mistake, just a typical marketing ploy to make increases look bigger than they are, or smaller depending on the required effect it should have on the observer. Same how stock market graphs get manipulated.
But it comes straight from the front page of the RSI website
 
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