The Star Citizen Thread

[Vargur]

I'm with you (on not nerfing roll), but please, stop spreading this nonsense. It is blatantly wrong. Yaw and Roll are both rotational DoF. Gforces depend on the position with respect to the axis of rotation. If you rotate around the pilot there are no GForces.

No offense!

It all depends on where you put the pilot in the craft.
In conventional aircraft style ships, like pretty much everything in SC and many smaller Elite ships, with the pilot in the front.
If you place the pilot with his head in the exact position of the roll axis, then roll is quite G-force-free.
Yaw and Pitch however share center of rotation, somewhere in the center of the ship, which means the exerted G force from either Yaw and Pitch is thesame.
Difference is that certain G force directions are more tolerable than others for humans.

Things would be different if you would place the pilot at the top of the ship for example. Then the pilot would be on the yaw axis, and yaw would not create much G force, but roll and pitch would share thesame center of rotation in relation to the pilot and be the ones creating G force.

In extreme cases, if you could place the pilot with his head in the intersection of Yaw, Pitch and Roll axis, then the pilot would have a lot of free maneuverability due to negligible G force being exerted on them.

So for ships like in SC, nerfing roll is very unrealistic, since it should be the most free dof for the pilot.

Edit: This get's a lot more complex when you start thinking about multicrew ships where you have to keep track of the G forces exerted on all crewmembers.
A multicrew ship with one crewmember for example would have a lot more freedom in maneuverability ( if G forces are the limiting factor) than if it's multicrewed.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

Good post on Reddit for Arena Commander :

Hi everyone! As most of you here I was struggling with the M&K control setup and found it much easier to handle the ships with either a Joystick or an 360 controller. But there is hope for M&K yet! While this topic is also important for other control methods it is almost mandatory for M&K to understand the IFCS.

I will be quoting parts from the DFM manual.

IFCS

Intelligent Flight Control System (IFCS). Flight control indicators are displayed in the lower right-hand side of the HUD. A flight control that has become disengaged will be more translucent with an “X” through it.

These are the very important indicators almost in the center of your HUD. In your game it reads:

• COUPLED
• G-SAFE
• COMSTAB

COUPLED/DECOUPLED

Coupled / Decoupled Mode. There are two flight control modes, coupled and decoupled. In coupled mode, flight is always nose-forward, like an atmospheric jet. When turning, the ship continues to move at a set velocity in the direction the nose is pointing.

This mode is very important to achieve the kind of maneuvers you see in Battlestar Galactica where the fighter turn around while still heading in the same direction. So basically this deactivates your main forward thrust, keeping you moving in the direction you were headed while still being able to turn around your axis. Ideal for shooting down people following you.

To toggle this mode press CAPS

G-SAFE

This mode prevents you from making maneuvres that would cause you to black out. Thus this limits your agility. I would strongly suggest you turn this off as this will allow you far better movement. You will learn how much G-Force you can take.

To toggle G-SAFE press CTRL-TAB.

COMSTAB

Comstab will limit this sliding behavior by slow- ing the ship’s velocity during extreme maneuvers. It is similar to the traction control system of ground-based vehicles.

This is a bit more advanced setting that, as the manual says, will make your ship slide a lot more when its off. You can use this to do some awesome strafing maneuvers, but it requires a bit more practice.

To toggle COMSTAB press CTRL-TAB.

RELATIVE MODE

This mode is not talked about in the manual but is VERY important for M&K control. What this mode does is change your mouse control to either directly follow your mouse, or intelligently follow your mouse. You start the game with intelligent mode activated. This means that your ship will try to use its thrusters to steadily follow your mouse cursor around. This mode results is far less agility though than direct follow. Direct follow will make your ship use thrusters to instantly follow your mouse cursor. This will make your ship a lot quicker in turning and responding, at the cost of some stability. You can use this to your advantage to turn quickly and after the turn reactivate intelligent mode.

To toggle relative mode press CTRL-F

One more thing I found was that mouse sensitivity, especially when you have intelligent relative mode disabled, is very important. Experiment with it and find what works for you!

Thanks for reading and see you in the verse!

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...ligent_flight_control_system_ifcs_and_how_it/

 

[Knightshark]

It all depends on where you put the pilot in the craft.
In conventional aircraft style ships, like pretty much everything in SC and many smaller Elite ships, with the pilot in the front.
If you place the pilot with his head in the exact position of the roll axis, then roll is quite G-force-free.
Yaw and Pitch however share center of rotation, somewhere in the center of the ship, which means the exerted G force from either Yaw and Pitch is thesame.
Difference is that certain G force directions are more tolerable than others for humans.

Things would be different if you would place the pilot at the top of the ship for example. Then the pilot would be on the yaw axis, and yaw would not create much G force, but roll and pitch would share thesame center of rotation in relation to the pilot and be the ones creating G force.

In extreme cases, if you could place the pilot with his head in the intersection of Yaw, Pitch and Roll axis, then the pilot would have a lot of free maneuverability due to negligible G force being exerted on them.

So for ships like in SC, nerfing roll is very unrealistic, since it should be the most free dof for the pilot.

Agree, nerfing roll is rubbish.

But GForces still don't matter, even if the pilot is not placed in the center of rotation. (However, there is no reason to design a spaceship that all rotations are performed around the pilots seat.)
You have to compare with the GForces acting on the pilot when turning the ship around, i.e. changing the direction of movement. It should be quite intuitive, that the distance from the center of rotation (~the radius of you curve) is much larger than compared to roll, yaw, and pitch alone.

 

[Bains]

Good post on Reddit for Arena Commander :

Hi everyone! As most of you here I was struggling with the M&K control setup and found it much easier to handle the ships with either a Joystick or an 360 controller. But there is hope for M&K yet! While this topic is also important for other control methods it is almost mandatory for M&K to understand the IFCS.

I will be quoting parts from the DFM manual.

IFCS

Intelligent Flight Control System (IFCS). Flight control indicators are displayed in the lower right-hand side of the HUD. A flight control that has become disengaged will be more translucent with an “X” through it.

These are the very important indicators almost in the center of your HUD. In your game it reads:

• COUPLED
• G-SAFE
• COMSTAB

COUPLED/DECOUPLED

Coupled / Decoupled Mode. There are two flight control modes, coupled and decoupled. In coupled mode, flight is always nose-forward, like an atmospheric jet. When turning, the ship continues to move at a set velocity in the direction the nose is pointing.

This mode is very important to achieve the kind of maneuvers you see in Battlestar Galactica where the fighter turn around while still heading in the same direction. So basically this deactivates your main forward thrust, keeping you moving in the direction you were headed while still being able to turn around your axis. Ideal for shooting down people following you.

To toggle this mode press CAPS

G-SAFE

This mode prevents you from making maneuvres that would cause you to black out. Thus this limits your agility. I would strongly suggest you turn this off as this will allow you far better movement. You will learn how much G-Force you can take.

To toggle G-SAFE press CTRL-TAB.

COMSTAB

Comstab will limit this sliding behavior by slow- ing the ship’s velocity during extreme maneuvers. It is similar to the traction control system of ground-based vehicles.

This is a bit more advanced setting that, as the manual says, will make your ship slide a lot more when its off. You can use this to do some awesome strafing maneuvers, but it requires a bit more practice.

To toggle COMSTAB press CTRL-TAB.

RELATIVE MODE

This mode is not talked about in the manual but is VERY important for M&K control. What this mode does is change your mouse control to either directly follow your mouse, or intelligently follow your mouse. You start the game with intelligent mode activated. This means that your ship will try to use its thrusters to steadily follow your mouse cursor around. This mode results is far less agility though than direct follow. Direct follow will make your ship use thrusters to instantly follow your mouse cursor. This will make your ship a lot quicker in turning and responding, at the cost of some stability. You can use this to your advantage to turn quickly and after the turn reactivate intelligent mode.

To toggle relative mode press CTRL-F

One more thing I found was that mouse sensitivity, especially when you have intelligent relative mode disabled, is very important. Experiment with it and find what works for you!

Thanks for reading and see you in the verse!

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...ligent_flight_control_system_ifcs_and_how_it/

Does it say what the key press is to make it fly like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOq7d73v1jc

"The biggest inspiration is Star Wars, of course. What teenager didn't leave the theater in 1977 and dream about flying his own X-Wing? Not just the technical aspects of flying a starfighter, but that idea of making you the hero, putting you in the 'movie.' My design philsophy has always been to trend towards a visceral experience, and they taught us so much about how little things like making the hand move with you on the joystick or actually showing damage to your cockpit as you fight are incredibly important. Of course, it's not just Star Wars... Our game takes a lot from the same classic World War II air combat films Lucas based his epic on, and in many ways it does so more directly. You're in an aircraft carrier in space and you're fighting an alien empire that stands in for Japan in this island hopping campaign across the stars. I like to build my games' stories on elements from history, which I think you'll see again in Star Citizen."

 

[AvonMexicola]

I'm just saying it's gonna be fun reading comments take a 180 turn if AC start shaping up well, nothing bad about it.

The point is, negative critique is welcomed and needed, but some people go far beyond it.
It's come to the point that they're already organizing a crucifixion without giving CIG a chance to show what's next in the upcoming patches.

EDIT:
I, too, don't like the flight model or the 3pv, but they've already announced significant changes in the next patch.
I guess it's easier to start the fire than to have a little patience.

Nobody likes the flight model, Mouse control is way to good compared to joystick control and about 80% of the SC community agree's with this. I am willing to bet this issue get's addressed really fast in upcoming patches.

TBH I am amazed at the community, first everyone yells "we don't care about bugs and balancing we just want to play"

Then the second the game comes out it is being crucified, the devs have lied and it is going to be a freelancer 2.

No I am not happy with the flight model, so I posted on this like I do with ED, let the devs know and let them tweak the game.

Right know I am happy with the looks, the smoothness of the game even on very high settings, and the amazing stability. It hasn't crashed once for me.

Bad for me right now:
controls (although the recently posted command line mod for joysticks helps a LOT), the small fishbowl of space I am allowed in and the sound effects.

Oh and to the money back people, you did a development backing, you did not buy a game. It's the basics of a kickstarter. If you paid money for a pretty ship you where basically an idiot. You back because you want to help development, not because you want an early alpha.'

I met CR, seen the passion in his eyes, I know Ben from the old WCNEWS days. These guys have a vision, and I still believe in that vision. This vision is going to be groundbreaking, which is the reason why high ranked devs from company's like blizzard and ID are flocking to them.

As a person I wonder where the empathy has gone... can you image how these people working there asses off must feel reading trough these piles of ****...

 

[Daffan]

As a person I wonder where the empathy has gone... can you image how these people working there asses off must feel reading trough these piles of ****...

 

[warbaby2]

The games market is a harsh place... people/gamers feel easily betrayed these days, especially when their expectations aren't met, and usually react by lashing out violently... CR knows that, he will survive... I mean, he dealt with Hollywood audiences.

Also: The reason why devs are flocking to them is money, first and foremost... CIG made a boat load of it already without actually producing much... I wish the world wasn't that cynical, but it is.

 

[forger]

As a person I wonder where the empathy has gone... can you image how these people working there asses off must feel reading trough these piles of ****...

silly question. if you do something that affects thousands and hundreds of thousands then do it right or read piles of ****.

i still don't get why such broken stick/hotas implementation (fixable but for first impression it's lame as hell), why only 4dof and we are forced to switch modes like crazy to reach 6dof which would be only naturally to have in space, why roll is nerfed down, why mouse has movement and targeting same time...why?

all those "design" choices are exactly the pile you described, and that pile is thrown currently at us, players, so we just are climbing out of it and shaking that off, some **** fly back to them naturally

 

[Mazhurg]

Another poll:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...verall-game-feeling-control-method-etc#latest

Interesting, if you look at the answers so far, it's almost as if folks have no idea - or can't differentiate between arcade and sim in the responses grouping.

 

[Bains]

Nobody likes the flight model, Mouse control is way to good compared to joystick control and about 80% of the SC community agree's with this. I am willing to bet this issue get's addressed really fast in upcoming patches.

TBH I am amazed at the community, first everyone yells "we don't care about bugs and balancing we just want to play"

Then the second the game comes out it is being crucified, the devs have lied and it is going to be a freelancer 2.

No I am not happy with the flight model, so I posted on this like I do with ED, let the devs know and let them tweak the game.

Right know I am happy with the looks, the smoothness of the game even on very high settings, and the amazing stability. It hasn't crashed once for me.

Bad for me right now:
controls (although the recently posted command line mod for joysticks helps a LOT), the small fishbowl of space I am allowed in and the sound effects.

Oh and to the money back people, you did a development backing, you did not buy a game. It's the basics of a kickstarter. If you paid money for a pretty ship you where basically an idiot. You back because you want to help development, not because you want an early alpha.'

I met CR, seen the passion in his eyes, I know Ben from the old WCNEWS days. These guys have a vision, and I still believe in that vision. This vision is going to be groundbreaking, which is the reason why high ranked devs from company's like blizzard and ID are flocking to them.

As a person I wonder where the empathy has gone... can you image how these people working there asses off must feel reading trough these piles of ****...

Poor Chris Roberts,

If you're going to make accusations please make them accurate.

The accusation being leveled by me at least, is that he appealed to the old school PC space sim fans for backing at the outset, specifically the risky stage when he would have been over the moon with 2-5 million backing, but then when his project developed Hollywood appeal, he made a behind closed doors course correction in favor of the tastes of the mainstream crowd. And this observation, contrary to your suggestion, is based on so much more than this release. As a matter of record I've felt this way for months and I am not alone. Furthermore it's hardly an outlandish theory. It happens all the time to gamers, although given the context of self funding, trust etc, it was definitely unexpected in this case.

So let me ask you a question. Do you honestly think he can make the PU for both types of gamer?

I can think of three possible answers. Let me save you and I some time by presenting both your answers and my responses. I appreciate you might consider this hubris, but believe I am well familiar with preaching of the Church of Roberts and as such have heard it all before.

He never appealed to this group in the first place - an absurd attempt at rewriting history
Don't worry he can make a game for everyone - a naive failure to understand the fundamental differences in taste
No he can't - I rest my case

+1

 

[Mazhurg]

If this is the case then why all aircraft perform rolls instead of yaw in order to turn? If there is no difference between roll and yaw then aircraft would perform all turns using rudder only - because it would be much safer - the chances to lose lift are much lower in horizontal flight then in roll.

I think that you have misunderstood me. The might be no difference between roll and yaw in terms of g-forces but there is difference in g-force if you compare them with pitch. And in order to perform pitch maneuver correctly you need to roll.

Structural integrity. Yawning an airplane breaks the aerodynamics of the fuselage, and induce all kinds of air pressures at speed.

In space, yawning by itself doe snot produce that, but yawning and changing course produces lateral G's that are harder on the body than positive vertical G's.

 

[Zarunoi]

From what I've seen of it, I am just happy I never spend any money on that game.
It's fun to follow all the different reaction people have on it though,
top notch entertainment value.

 

[Aleksej]

Structural integrity. Yawning an airplane breaks the aerodynamics of the fuselage, and induce all kinds of air pressures at speed.

In space, yawning by itself doe snot produce that, but yawning and changing course produces lateral G's that are harder on the body than positive vertical G's.

Well, that's exactly what I am talking about and this why there is little sense in AC's flight model.

 

[Stormprooter]

Unless they do something about HOTAS/Joystick/Gamepad control, then SQ42 is going to suck big style as well, as that is meant to be hard-core space combat.

 

[AvonMexicola]

Poor Chris Roberts,

If you're going to make accusations please make them accurate.

The accusation being leveled by me at least, is that he appealed to the old school PC space sim fans for backing at the outset, specifically the risky stage when he would have been over the moon with 2-5 million backing, but then when his project developed Hollywood appeal, walked away from them in favor of catering to the mainstream crowd. And this observation, contrary to your suggestion, is based on so much more than this release. As a matter of record I've felt this way for months and I am not alone. Furthermore it's hardly an outlandish theory. It happens all the time to gamers, although given the context of self funding, trust etc, it was definitely unexpected in this case.

So let me ask you a question. Do you honestly think he can make the PU for both types of gamer?

I can think of three possible answers. Let me save you and I some time by presenting both your answers and my responses. I appreciate you might consider this hubris, but believe I am well familiar with preaching of the Church of Roberts and as such have heard it all before.

He never appealed to this group in the first place - an absurd attempt at rewriting history
Don't worry he can make a game for everyone - a naive failure to understand the differences in taste
No he can't - I rest my case



+1

Well CR has never made a game I did not like, so I am sticking around for a bit longer
Also all this ranting of you on this topic all based on a "feeling" you had for months that was "shared" by others? You almost sound religious

 

[Bains]

Well CR has never made a game I did not like, so I am sticking around for a bit longer
Also all this ranting of you on this topic all based on a "feeling" you had for months that was "shared" by others? You almost sound religious

True, but only when responding to scripture. Read the post I am responding to for instance. Strange you find nothing to comment on about its messianic overtones in its defense of CR. "Us gamers, we know not what we do, forsooth he is crucified for our sins, You worms, I have seen it in his eyes!". And yet you pick on my commentary? ...Please

 

[fourty6to3]

The titles of the two main threads in the SC-Forum say it all:

1. "What es me off.... we waited for this. This could have changed direction 4 weeks ago."

2. "Arcadey Commander - chase the mouse"

-> https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/categories/arena-commander

It's not even malicious joy i am feeling right now since i saw this coming months ago. Just pity.

Edit:
But what i don not understand is that there isn't one single video review out there coming up with the facts. Seems like all those who spend too much time into SC haven't think of having to do a critical review.

I'm thinking about doing a critical review, though I haven't decided when would be a good time to have my crucifixion yet.

 

[Memnoch]

I had a few goes yesterday and honestly it just feels very odd compared to ED. The ship has no sense of weight - you don't get any sense of acceleration or momentum.

You just point and spin - it just feel like you're pointing at a target on a screen (which obviously you are) as opposed to actually following a craft in another craft - which as we know ED has absolutely nailed.

Thanks Ian and others.

I had noticed some posts on the SC forums suggesting that they should integrate something like the flight model used in ED. Perhaps they should take a serious look at this.

 

[AvonMexicola]

Thanks Ian and others.

I had noticed some posts on the SC forums suggesting that they should integrate something like the flight model used in ED. Perhaps they should take a serious look at this.

I hope they do ED's flight model is fantastic

 

[fourty6to3]

I don't think they are going to change the flight model: "The Arena Commander launch has been a great success"
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13925-Arena-Commander-V08-Thank-You

So I just have to give up on the idea of going to play two spacesims, it is going to be one spacesim(E: D) and one FarCry in Space (SC).
Which is nice also.

Your reports on design issues like control responsiveness are also being considered;

That line makes me think that the flight model is working as intended.