The unavoidable poll: PvP vs PvE!

[Zeta Legion]

In a competitive environment powerups influence map control and the way the game is played. Without placed powerups you get CounterStrike or Call of Duty. In both cases the game just boils down to hunting the enemy and killing them, with no reason to go anywhere on the map but to where the enemy is (objectives are often ignored in both games because killing the enemy is either a faster way to win or awards more points to the player). Removal of powerups (and the addition of ADS and regenerating health and auto-aim) are why FPS suck so much these days, so whining that powerups remove skill is rather a false equivalency.

What DOES take skill out of CQC is the auto-aim.

 

[Cosmos]

Meaningless. Forum polls are by their nature limited to a subset of players, self-selecting, and gameable. Only FD knows what proportion of time players spend in each mode, and so far they're keeping that information to themselves. You know where this thread will go. In before the descent and lock.

Indeed, I'm not even going to bother voting since both aspects of the game are equally important to me.

 

[Joe Akeem]

I love scones. Add just an extra teeny bit of salt in the dough and you're golden. Cheddar and a sweet wildfruit marmelade. Finish with a strong cup o java.

 

[Jypson]

And your argument isn't basing itself on thorough experience with the subject of discussion which I'm trying to explain to you why you are not seeing part of your argument being inconsistent with what exists in game and how it functions mechanically.

So your argument is that I must have working practical experience with the subject before I'm qualified to comment? I assure you that I am knowledgeable of the game mechanics and follow the PvP applications.

Except that there is trade off, which means it's not pure power up but modification. Which is why there is a distinction.

Powerups come with tradeoffs as well. Just look at the famous Gold Star in Mario Kart, your speed can become too great to control and go off the course requiring a lift back onto the track.

It's okay Jenner, Jypson and I won't devolve the argument into something that needs moderating.

Indeed, simply a civil debate. The only rule we may be encroaching on, is to the relevance to the OP. If you would like us to carry on elsewhere, we can start another thread if you wish [smile]

 

[frostypaw]

Gluttony appears to be making the argument for a new mode added to Arena far far far better than he's ever made the pro-pvp/open arguments.

I really do not for the life of me understand why there isn't more focus on getting that redeveloped to please the PvP crowd - imagine... no grinding for hours for ships/outfitting just pick your loadout.... *full of stars*

 

[Crimson Kaim]

In a multiplayer game there is only one choice: PVP.

Basically this. I don't play the PvE part in Elite at all. Don't do missions, do not farm in REs or CZs, do not (anymore) participate in PowerPlay. I grinded my way up to the billions to do alot of PvP but even that has got boring (the engineers update may change that tho! )

However, PvP is for me the most important part as, I sadly have to say, PvE (or anything besides PvP) extremely lacks in depth.

 

[Jypson]

Gluttony appears to be making the argument for a new mode added to Arena far far far better than he's ever made the pro-pvp/open arguments.

I really do not for the life of me understand why there isn't more focus on getting that redeveloped to please the PvP crowd - imagine... no grinding for hours for ships/outfitting just pick your loadout.... *full of stars*

I'm a PvE guy through and through, but I too want Arena to get some love. Whoever is taking lead for Arena development should send invites out to the prominent PvP groups and use their knowledge to make Arena an amazing, fair, and balanced place to hone your PvP skills.

 

[Jenner]

Eh? This is all in good fun, friend. Nothing to Moderate here! [up]

It's okay Jenner, Jypson and I won't devolve the argument into something that needs moderating.

lol. Ok, carry on!

 

[GluttonyFang]

So your argument is that I must have working practical experience with the subject before I'm qualified to comment? I assure you that I am knowledgeable of the game mechanics and follow the PvP applications.

What I mean is that a valid argument and a credible argument are two different things.

Powerups come with tradeoffs as well. Just look at the famous Gold Star in Mario Kart, your speed can become too great to control and go off the course requiring a lift back onto the track.

W...what? We are are talking about Elite, not some other game.

 

[El Dragoon!]

i think pve is more fundamental to the game and i enjoy it more than pvp. but i do like pvp its apart of the game too. i never leave a station in a defenseless ship

 

[GluttonyFang]

Gluttony appears to be making the argument for a new mode added to Arena far far far better than he's ever made the pro-pvp/open arguments.

I really do not for the life of me understand why there isn't more focus on getting that redeveloped to please the PvP crowd - imagine... no grinding for hours for ships/outfitting just pick your loadout.... *full of stars*

With the way CQC is set up, I don't think I want to be involved more than I have to to get the Engineers to notice me in the main game.

 

[Jypson]

Basically this. I don't play the PvE part in Elite at all. Don't do missions, do not farm in REs or CZs, do not (anymore) participate in PowerPlay. I grinded my way up to the billions to do alot of PvP but even that has got boring (the engineers update may change that tho! )

However, PvP is for me the most important part as, I sadly have to say, PvE (or anything besides PvP) extremely lacks in depth.

Psst, grinding your way to billions requires PvE, unless you made that billion creds hunting Wanted CMDR's.

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What I mean is that a valid argument and a credible argument are two different things.

So are my comments and observations not credible, or not valid?

W...what? We are are talking about Elite, not some other game.

We're arguing about powerups; powerups exist both in Elite and other games.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnr1LrzJjtdwuFG/giphy.gif

lol. Ok, carry on!

RGR CMDR o7

 

[GluttonyFang]

So are my comments and observations not credible, or not valid?

Most arguments are valid in the sense that they are rational if the premises they base their conclusions on are credible. But I am questioning your premise due to your apparent inexperience in PvP and CQC.

Edit:

No one's stopping you from commenting, but in turn people will point out that you aren't experienced in combative PvP/CQC when discussing said subjects in depth.

We're arguing about powerups; powerups exist both in Elite and other games.

No, we are arguing about the differentiation between CQC and main game PvP in Elite Dangerous, not the broad conception of the term "Power up".

It's like saying economic understanding of marginal utility is identical to a political understanding of marginal utility, they have similarities, but need to be examined in their particular applications.

 

[frostypaw]

It's also quite a poor arguing stance to declare yourself a self-appointed expert and decree that other people aren't qualified to hold an opinion because you don't think they know what's going on.

 

[Yaffle]

For those who missed it Jenner did say to stop demanding credentials and stay on topic.

Or I'll demand everyone's credentials in designing a million unit sales space simulation game. Which would limit the only competent poster to Mike Evans.

 

[GluttonyFang]

It's also quite a poor arguing stance to declare yourself a self-appointed expert and decree that other people aren't qualified to hold an opinion because you don't think they know what's going on.

At no point did I declare myself an expert, but I do hold visible and extensive PvP experience in this game, that is indisputable by a large margin. People are qualified to hold opinions, but they should also be prepared both credential wise and rational wise.

You don't see me asking A.D.Grape (and other well-known PvPers on this forum that have evident PvP experience) about credentials whatsoever, so it's not an exclusive title I'm assigning myself.

If people want to talk about PvP or address aspects regarding PvP and want to be credible, show people they have experience outside of pure theoretical and reason base on said relevant, empirical premises.

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For those who missed it Jenner did say to stop demanding credentials and stay on topic.

Or I'll demand everyone's credentials in designing a million unit sales space simulation game. Which would limit the only competent poster to Mike Evans.

No one here is using credential as a weapon, it's used to point out the stability of the premises used to draw conclusions in an argument. I pointed out repeatedly that it isn't a personal attack nor an attempt to raise emotional response, and Jypson and I agreed to have a civilized discussion, and that's exactly what I intend to do.

 

[Yaffle]

At no point did I declare myself an expert, but I do hold visible and extensive PvP experience in this game, that is indisputable by a large margin. People are qualified to hold opinions, but they should also be prepared both credential wise and rational wise.

You don't see me asking A.D.Grape (and other well-known PvPers on this forum that have evident PvP experience) about credentials whatsoever, so it's not an exclusive title I'm assigning myself.

If people want to talk about PvP or address aspects regarding PvP and want to be credible, show people they have experience outside of pure theoretical and reason base on said relevant, empirical premises.

So, how many 1.6million unit sales games have you designed?

 

[frostypaw]

Please see mod post above.

This can't be an echo chamber for a bunch of "we do PvP rite" people to stomp around and say they are the only people who know what's going on.

Many many people want more PvP just not the flavour doled out by the current mess, but rather than join in with all the other players in a way that means we can stop this PvPvsPvE argument instead everyone else is generally told they're wrong, they're not fit to have an opinion and probably a scaredy that'll run to solo and combat log.

It's not productive.

 

[GluttonyFang]

So, how many 1.6million unit sales games have you designed?

If I question the competency of game design and assert that a different design than the existing one is correct on an empirical basis, then of course I would have to show that I have credential in said area.

Except that is irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[Yaffle]

If I question the competency of game design and assert that a different design than the existing one is correct on an empirical basis, then of course I would have to show that I have credential in said area.

Except that is irrelevant in this discussion.

Credentials demanding is irrelevant. Completely.

Here's the first reason - this is the internet people make them up.
Here's the second - it's used as a weak form of destabilising the argument as one side arbitrarily decides on the 'level' of competence to belittle the other regardless of the quality of thought or not. That's a poor arguing technique.
Here's the third - why not deal with the argument rather than the poster?

For the avoidance of doubt, stop demanding credentials.