To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[thirstyfish]

Well, in europe, during ww2 people who internally fought against the Axe after their country submitted were at the time doing so against the now law of there respective country, considered criminals and terrorist. Now they are called resistant and viewed as hero. The wining side decide, in the end, what's right or wrong.

Before anyone screams godwin point, it is not a comparison but an illustration I personnaly relate to by my scholar education. There are a lot of similar exemple were everyone would agree the then laws were insane and going against then is now retroactively judged legitimate by modern standard.

What I mean is rules are not intrassecally sacred, unfair, stupid rules law exists, and we can be gratefull people once fought agaisnt them. Otherwise slavery would still be the main labor resource, women would still be subhuman, etc.

I'm not saying it is the case for cloging, but that the argument "it is the official rule and you are not qualified to discuss it", as an universal rule, killed a lot of people in history...

IMO, As a general rule ( )Bad rules/laws deserve to be discussed. This is even the basic principle of democracy: discuss laws

-- edit -- I'm not writing this to start a debate but as a way to ask about taking some distance from absolutistic statment, as a general question for oneself "should absolutely all rules and law be absolute and forbiden to debate and act against?" You have 2 hours, do not copy on your comrades. If I see any smartphone i'll confiscate it.
--

Now back to this specific case, imo, cloging is bad, but is merely the symptom of something worse: the game is going nowhere good in term of players interaction, and the p2p network architecture is sadly showing how far it can goes, and the sole legitimate way to act against these is to go solo or mobius, or cringe uselessly in the forum...

Now i'm pretty sure the vast majority of pve cloger aren't doing so as a form of activism for fd to acknowledge player interaction mechanism are dull and need atention...

-- edited to avoid possible misinterpreting

Thank you, that is the point I am getting at. I just wasn't saying it right. The world pretty much never works in absolutes. There are plenty of mitigating circumstances, and refusing to question, poke, and prod at the rules can be dangerous. This case is no different. Ideally, the rule shouldn't have to matter at all. Ideally, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to ever combat log. I am not saying a perfect solution is out there, because that is a fairy tale, but there are solutions out there that would help alleviate this for a lot of people. Whether its a GTA style passive mode/flag or a dedicated PvE game mode, it would help a lot of people, from the people on the Mobius groups (yes, groups), to the people who don't know about Mobius because they aren't on any forums related to this game. There is a very real need to fix this problem.

The peer to peer architecture was simply never intended to prevent players from disconnecting from each other.

My guess is that Frontier thought everyone not playing Solo would enjoy the full range of social interaction, including the confrontational (PvP) kind, and thus never have a reason to combat log. They failed to notice that a (potentially very large) part of the player base wanted social interaction, but without the confrontational part (i.e., multiplayer PvE). So, now you have a lot of players that are using combat logging to play in Open and still get the PvP-free experience they wanted (and, in some cases, to "punish" those that attempt to push them into an unwanted PvP situation), a game architecture that was never meant to stop that, and Frontier possibly scared about harming the game if they ever try to enforce penalties for combat logging (as their previous warning, telling players to not combat log anymore, seem to have had absolutely no effect).

For those that say those players should be playing in Mobius: typically only about 10% of the player base ever seeks game forums. The vast majority of players likely never heard about Mobius, and without the group being advertised in-game by Frontier themselves never will. Which is part of the reason I consider Mobius a very lacking solution, even though it's the best one the players could possibly make without help from Frontier.

Exactly. See what I wrote above, because at this point I would be repeating myself.

 

[Exigeous]

combat logging is merely a symptom of a disease and not the cause of it. People combat log because of a lack of a better option. I am not saying its right, because it clearly isn't. Until there is some better option for dealing with griefers/gankers, combat logging will continue. I am not going to claim to know how to solve this. For the time being, if someone Clogs on you, the best advice I can give is to recommend that you move on

As for the wing up, and instancing issues...those of us in the mischief (a group of rats is called a mischief) consider instancing to be the only enemy truly worth defeating (until thargoids or something else comes along). If you find yourself in the fuelum area, let me know, maybe we can arrange something.

While I understand what you're saying about the underlying problem with griefers/gankers I absolutely disagree that it's a disease and that clogging is, in any way, an acceptable solution. As I've said a few times these are absolutely black and white issues. Clogging is exploiting, period. Exploiting is against the rules, period. Killing/Griefing is NOT against the rules, period. If you want to avoid getting griefed or killed you have 2 great options, solo or Mobius. You also have the option of high waking out if interdicted. The only time I've ever been killed from an interdiction was my fault, a guy I knew to be a Twitch snipper interdicted me and when I submitting I started chatting with him instead of just running. Even with that I was able to get back into SC but I should have high waked to another system. I didn't as I just didn't care.

Being crystal clear I am in no way supporting or defending griefers/killers. It's absolutely lame. It is however "legal". Cheating and then using a "he made me" argument doesn't make it right. The single best way to deal with griefers like this is to just ignore them completely. Like spam if everyone ignored this and no one got upset it would end very quickly. As for recommending that I "move on" when this happens you are 100% absolutely correct and that's exactly what I do. I might think or say "ugh, d@mn him, stupid combat logger, lame" and then I go right back to playing. I've only reported a player once or twice, there were players that shot first and fought until they were near death then logged. Those are the most frustrating but even then I just go back to what I was doing.

I LOVE that a "mischief" is a group of rats, damn that's great. I don't think I've been through Fuelum area before so I'll fly by sometime and say hi. At some point I will absolutely join the Rats as you guys are such a fantastic player group. In multiplayer games with various classes I always play "support", specifically medic when I can. I don't play much Overwatch but when I do I only play Mercy. In fact I've never played any other character as I enjoy playing the healer to keep everyone alive. As such FuelRat is right up my alley.

--------------------

....it is the feeling I get in the end from being stolen from in-game, the overall tone of the experience, that for me is roughly the same as being stolen from in real life.... ....I don't consider them criminals; despite the similarity in what I feel from the parallel situations, I'm fully aware that this is just a game. If I somehow made it seem otherwise, that was not my intent.

If you're letting something from a game impact you in "roughly the same as being stolen from in real life" may I suggest that you stop playing multiplayer games. If that statement is true, and I don't believe for a second that it is, the amount of trauma you're putting yourself at risk for would be dangerous. If something in a video game was able to affect someone in a similar or even remotely similar way that of a violent felony crime the mental strain of that would be extremely intense. I fear that person would snap, if you can't differentiate between a game world and the real world I worry greatly for the world around you.

Of course I'm not worried as we all know you're exaggerating in the extreme here trying to justify the fact that you're simply a cheater. And if you're not exaggerating then I strongly *strongly* suggest you seek out professional help as you'd so clearly need it.

As for it not being your intent you've repeatedly compared game actions to real world felony actions, trying to back pedal on that now further illustrates instability to me. Perhaps you should go back and read what you've written, maybe some self enlightenment would be good for you as clearly you need help somewhere.

--------------------

First run, I arrive ok

Second run, I get pulled over by.. ...a genuine pirate... ...Overall fun experience.

Third run, I get pulled over by a wing of FDLs... ...No comms, no fingerquote "rock-paper-scissors", no entertainment.

...Ganking/Griefing in this game isn't just BAD, it's BORING. You get to have more fun with NPCs, at least they get to say "the rumors were true". I could go on and on about what FDEV are doing wrong, but what's the point....

First I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with a real pirate the second time. The experience you had is exactly the experience I hope my targets have and from the polite chats I have with many I know they do. It may sound silly but when I play pirate I do my best to make sure my target has a good time too. I hope I'm getting their heart pounding a little and I'm adding some silly danger to the game for them. When I do ask for cargo at most I'll ask for half of my available space or half of their cargo, whichever is smaller. I usually only have 16t in my FDL so at most I ask for 8t. I also never ask for or take Engineering commodities. Those are hard to get and if you're going to go use them I have no desire to ruin that part of the game for you.

As for the FDLs I'm nearly positive I know the group you're referring to. I had a run in with them one night while flying with 2 friends (Anaconda and Python, I was in FDL). We chatted a bit, friendly banter and we both knew we were about to go at it. When my friends dropped in we were 3 on 3, I'd never seen that in Elite before (all human players). We got our butts handed to us quickly which ended with me laughing for quite a while after, for us it was good fun.

It's really a shame that a bad experience like that would push you out of open. I say that as it sounded like you enjoyed the second encounter, I suppose the question is did you enjoy that and other "good" player interactions more than you hated the negative ones. Can you not let those situations bother you so that you can have fun with the good ones? I can't answer that for you obviously, for me it's no contest, I'd risk the douches any time to get the experience of interacting with good commanders.

- - - Updated - - -

What I mean is rules are not intrassecally sacred, unfair, stupid rules law exists, and we can be gratefull people once fought agaisnt them. Otherwise slavery would still be the main labor resource, women would still be subhuman, etc.

I'm not saying it is the case for cloging, but that the argument "it is the official rule and you are not qualified to discuss it", as an universal rule, killed a lot of people in history...

...the game is going nowhere good in term of players interaction, and the p2p network architecture is sadly showing how far it can goes, and the sole legitimate way to act against these is to go solo or mobius, or cringe uselessly in the forum...

You make a very interesting point and while it's a bit extreme to draw the similarities between that and a game I understand where you're going with it. Being clear I have ZERO problem discussing something like this and, quite the opposite, I enjoy the debate a topic like this brings. If I didn't I wouldn't still be replying nor would you. It's a fun topic to debate, we both clearly care about the game otherwise we wouldn't be here would we? So while I agree that we should discuss issues like this and that absolutely unfair or perceived unfair laws should be debated and changed when the community decides as such. You're also right that the winners write the history, we've seen that many many times during humanity's time on earth.

The issue I have is "I disagree with this rule/law so I'm going to decide for myself that I get to ignore it". We're not talking about civil rights here, we're talking about the rules of a game. Something we choose to play, not something we have a right to play. When you decide to engage in a non-public activity, like playing a game vs. say riding public transportation, ones rights go out the window. You absolutely have the right to ride public transportation and I applaud those like Rosa Parks who took a stand over that. However you do NOT have rights when it comes to private issues that you choose to engage in. When you choose to play a game like Elite you have to abide by the rules set out in that game. If you don't like them then of course you should discuss the reasons why with the games creators and do what you can to have it changed. Using that as justification to cheat is absolutely wrong and unfair to those that do follow the rules.

So while I enjoy and encourage any debate on features or rules as they relate to something like Elite if I decide to play I'm deciding to follow the rules as they are laid out. If I don't like them or find them offensive in some way I'll simply go play something else. Using that to justify cheating is never right. Cheating should never be acceptable, period.

-------------------

The world pretty much never works in absolutes. There are plenty of mitigating circumstances, and refusing to question, poke, and prod at the rules can be dangerous.

Again you are both absolutely right that this topic should be discussed and debated. That's the single best way to bring about change. If there's something in Elite, or anything for that matter, that you disagree with you should speak your mind. You should try to find others that agree. That group should then try to grow by finding others that agree. That should then be directed at Frontier (or the "rule maker") in an attempt to get them to change. If they disagree you should continue to make your case and do all you can to convince them and others that your stance is better/best/right. Absolutely 100% agree with all of that.

The problem however is that just because you disagree with a rule in Elite does NOT give you the right or any kind of moral high ground to stand on while you cheat and break said rule. You're correct that many things in life aren't black and white. Hell the vast majority of life isn't black and white. Breaking the rules and/or cheating is black and white. Cheating is wrong, period. Whether you're cheating a little or cheating a lot it doesn't matter - Cheating Is Wrong.

None of us have the right to selectively obey and disobey the rules of something we engage in. If you think PvP killing is wrong you don't get to cheat to get around it. Let's say there was an exploit that I could use to transfer all the credits in your account to mine. That would be an exploit, just like clogging is an exploit. If I think that earning money is too hard and as such I decide I'm just going to take all your credits is that right? Why is that wrong but clogging isn't? Why do I have to follow one set of rules while you follow another?

We all play Elite because we enjoy it. If each of us decided what rules we wanted to follow and what rules we didn't do you think Elite would still be an enjoyable experience? Nope, it would fall apart very quickly. While there are rules we disagree with we should absolutely try to have those rules changed. But until that happens and they do change we should all be expected to follow the rules as they are at any given moment. As I've said - there is nothing special about you or your opinion that means you can cheat and I can't.

 

[Lucian667]

Ehh....I haven't found mines to be that great. I have given them a fair shake and found out I am not a big fan. Prior to 2.1 they were situational at best. In 2.1 they got a lot better, but now in 2.2 they seem to be back to where they were. At least from the forum posts I have seen about mines.

I agree, pre 2.2 I had 4 mine launchers on my Asp-X which really helped out to run away when interdicted by a superior ship. Now I've replaced all the mines with missile launchers because post 2.2, mines seem to be utterly useless and do absolutely nothing, not even slow a pursuing ship down. People tell me its the AI that's improved, not the mines being nerfed but honestly the exact cause seems pretty irrelevant. Whatever has been done, the outcome is that mines are now about as useful as empty hardpoints, in fact empty hardpoints would actually be more useful because at least you'd have slightly greater jump range.

 

[V'larr]

Open is hardmode. Period. It's just other players providing the hardmode boss content. I don't think anyone ever opened a whine thread to other developers when they got their butts handed to them because they weren't skilled/geared/gud enough to defeat single player hardmode difficulties.

No, not really. Hardmode implies various differences from normal gameplay to make the game harder than normal. Open only means you're inviting any random stranger to come across you (or vice versa).

Not to mention "I don't think anyone ever opened a whine thread" is categorically clueless. You clearly don't inhabit forums in general if you truely believe there aren't whine threads in any given game, specificially created because someone lost or is having a hard time. Plus, much of the reason we don't have NPCs that have magic beam-laser-plasma-accelerator god-mode weapons is thanks to these 'whine threads' pointing out the problem.

 

[raeat]

Well, when the good pirates find a way to police the bad pirates, we can talk. Until then...

Honestly though, FDev. Don't get involved in a punishment mentality. Children think punishment, punishment, punishment because that's likely all they've known. Just reward the pirate when the target player CLogs (or even just escapes) as if they've won the combat. There are many ways to win a conflict and intimidation is, in reality, one of them. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have to come down to lethal combat every single time. If you get into policing and banning, the entire forums will become about influencing what is policed and what the punishment "should" be. Just how much do you want to be gamed by the players trying to turn the game into their own individual paradise? Just don't go there.

 

[BACKER #-4112]

I'll come across a "griefer" once every 3 months of play and have my ship blown to smitherines. Compare that to the amount of credits I make in 3 months to the rebuy cost, I say big whoop.

I'll come across a pirate just as often, most often than not it's a noob pirate without the formalities that comes with the "known pirate gorup" but oh well, human interaction never the less.

So no, Open play is not as bad as some people (who get blown up once and cry the end of the world) claim.

I am quite happy with Open the way it is. If I come across a hostile environment and don't want to get blown up again, I'll stay away from it.

 

[Comrade Error]

Well, when the good pirates find a way to police the bad pirates, we can talk. Until then...

Honestly though, FDev. Don't get involved in a punishment mentality. Children think punishment, punishment, punishment because that's likely all they've known. Just reward the pirate when the target player CLogs (or even just escapes) as if they've won the combat. There are many ways to win a conflict and intimidation is, in reality, one of them. It doesn't, and shouldn't, have to come down to lethal combat every single time. If you get into policing and banning, the entire forums will become about influencing what is policed and what the punishment "should" be. Just how much do you want to be gamed by the players trying to turn the game into their own individual paradise? Just don't go there.

The whatnows police the whatnows? Pretty bad joke.

 

[KevinMillican]

As I've said multiple times I couldn't agree more that there should be MUCH harsher penalties for murdering a commander. If it was so bad you couldn't fly more than a few seconds without being interdicted and it would be a wing of ever increasing numbers and ships, from say a single Anaconda to multiple Corvettes, FAS, FDL, etc. If the penalties were so bad you basically couldn't play I think many gankers would give it a second thought.

I agree with this.

I think it would improve the game if FDev made more of the Pilots Federation thing, ie. when you criminally kill another player CMDR outside an anarchy system you should get a much higher fine and bounty. This would have no effect on legitimate kills in CZs or when a CMDR is wanted.

I used to think this should be linked to the victim's rebuy cost, but that would be unfair on newbies. It would be better to have a lower and upper limit and make it proportional to the loss you inflict on them. Alternatively, could make it a proportion of your own ship value.

For powerplay, you'd need some kind of compensation system so that such fines could be dealt with when turning in powerplay credits, as this is legitimate play.

Things would be even more interesting if another player takes out the wanted offender and collects the bounty - say if the original victim got a message in their inbox saying;

"CMDR NiceGuy collected the XXXXX bounty on a CMDR who recently destroyed your ship - here is 20% of the reward as victim compensation"

 

[Comrade Error]

I think sometimes we look back on the 'golden era' of piracy in E and blaming its demise on the rise of the 'griefer' seems incorrect to me.

Have a look at the old threads. Legitimate piracy was regularly called griefing, people advocated the use of combat logging against it and would write massive tracts of text with emotive phrasing about how they were victims and comparing it to real world loss, and that old buzzphrase "this is why i fly in mobius".

The only difference now is that the majority arent asking for cargo. The response is still the same from the 'victims'.

Nb: Said as a predominantly open mode trader

Although I stuck to the Xbox part of the forums back then (if Elite was even on Xbox back then) but I did find this.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/144529-Who-Here-Hates-CODE

 

[WR3ND]

10,000 LYs from the bubble no one knows nor cares what mode you're in. Well, other than maybe if you're trying to take high res. screenshots.

 

[thirstyfish]

While I understand what you're saying about the underlying problem with griefers/gankers I absolutely disagree that it's a disease and that clogging is, in any way, an acceptable solution. As I've said a few times these are absolutely black and white issues. Clogging is exploiting, period. Exploiting is against the rules, period. Killing/Griefing is NOT against the rules, period. If you want to avoid getting griefed or killed you have 2 great options, solo or Mobius. You also have the option of high waking out if interdicted. The only time I've ever been killed from an interdiction was my fault, a guy I knew to be a Twitch snipper interdicted me and when I submitting I started chatting with him instead of just running. Even with that I was able to get back into SC but I should have high waked to another system. I didn't as I just didn't care.

Being crystal clear I am in no way supporting or defending griefers/killers. It's absolutely lame. It is however "legal". Cheating and then using a "he made me" argument doesn't make it right. The single best way to deal with griefers like this is to just ignore them completely. Like spam if everyone ignored this and no one got upset it would end very quickly. As for recommending that I "move on" when this happens you are 100% absolutely correct and that's exactly what I do. I might think or say "ugh, d@mn him, stupid combat logger, lame" and then I go right back to playing. I've only reported a player once or twice, there were players that shot first and fought until they were near death then logged. Those are the most frustrating but even then I just go back to what I was doing.

I LOVE that a "mischief" is a group of rats, damn that's great. I don't think I've been through Fuelum area before so I'll fly by sometime and say hi. At some point I will absolutely join the Rats as you guys are such a fantastic player group. In multiplayer games with various classes I always play "support", specifically medic when I can. I don't play much Overwatch but when I do I only play Mercy. In fact I've never played any other character as I enjoy playing the healer to keep everyone alive. As such FuelRat is right up my alley.

--------------------



If you're letting something from a game impact you in "roughly the same as being stolen from in real life" may I suggest that you stop playing multiplayer games. If that statement is true, and I don't believe for a second that it is, the amount of trauma you're putting yourself at risk for would be dangerous. If something in a video game was able to affect someone in a similar or even remotely similar way that of a violent felony crime the mental strain of that would be extremely intense. I fear that person would snap, if you can't differentiate between a game world and the real world I worry greatly for the world around you.

Of course I'm not worried as we all know you're exaggerating in the extreme here trying to justify the fact that you're simply a cheater. And if you're not exaggerating then I strongly *strongly* suggest you seek out professional help as you'd so clearly need it.

As for it not being your intent you've repeatedly compared game actions to real world felony actions, trying to back pedal on that now further illustrates instability to me. Perhaps you should go back and read what you've written, maybe some self enlightenment would be good for you as clearly you need help somewhere.

--------------------



First I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with a real pirate the second time. The experience you had is exactly the experience I hope my targets have and from the polite chats I have with many I know they do. It may sound silly but when I play pirate I do my best to make sure my target has a good time too. I hope I'm getting their heart pounding a little and I'm adding some silly danger to the game for them. When I do ask for cargo at most I'll ask for half of my available space or half of their cargo, whichever is smaller. I usually only have 16t in my FDL so at most I ask for 8t. I also never ask for or take Engineering commodities. Those are hard to get and if you're going to go use them I have no desire to ruin that part of the game for you.

As for the FDLs I'm nearly positive I know the group you're referring to. I had a run in with them one night while flying with 2 friends (Anaconda and Python, I was in FDL). We chatted a bit, friendly banter and we both knew we were about to go at it. When my friends dropped in we were 3 on 3, I'd never seen that in Elite before (all human players). We got our butts handed to us quickly which ended with me laughing for quite a while after, for us it was good fun.

It's really a shame that a bad experience like that would push you out of open. I say that as it sounded like you enjoyed the second encounter, I suppose the question is did you enjoy that and other "good" player interactions more than you hated the negative ones. Can you not let those situations bother you so that you can have fun with the good ones? I can't answer that for you obviously, for me it's no contest, I'd risk the douches any time to get the experience of interacting with good commanders.

- - - Updated - - -



You make a very interesting point and while it's a bit extreme to draw the similarities between that and a game I understand where you're going with it. Being clear I have ZERO problem discussing something like this and, quite the opposite, I enjoy the debate a topic like this brings. If I didn't I wouldn't still be replying nor would you. It's a fun topic to debate, we both clearly care about the game otherwise we wouldn't be here would we? So while I agree that we should discuss issues like this and that absolutely unfair or perceived unfair laws should be debated and changed when the community decides as such. You're also right that the winners write the history, we've seen that many many times during humanity's time on earth.

The issue I have is "I disagree with this rule/law so I'm going to decide for myself that I get to ignore it". We're not talking about civil rights here, we're talking about the rules of a game. Something we choose to play, not something we have a right to play. When you decide to engage in a non-public activity, like playing a game vs. say riding public transportation, ones rights go out the window. You absolutely have the right to ride public transportation and I applaud those like Rosa Parks who took a stand over that. However you do NOT have rights when it comes to private issues that you choose to engage in. When you choose to play a game like Elite you have to abide by the rules set out in that game. If you don't like them then of course you should discuss the reasons why with the games creators and do what you can to have it changed. Using that as justification to cheat is absolutely wrong and unfair to those that do follow the rules.

So while I enjoy and encourage any debate on features or rules as they relate to something like Elite if I decide to play I'm deciding to follow the rules as they are laid out. If I don't like them or find them offensive in some way I'll simply go play something else. Using that to justify cheating is never right. Cheating should never be acceptable, period.

-------------------



Again you are both absolutely right that this topic should be discussed and debated. That's the single best way to bring about change. If there's something in Elite, or anything for that matter, that you disagree with you should speak your mind. You should try to find others that agree. That group should then try to grow by finding others that agree. That should then be directed at Frontier (or the "rule maker") in an attempt to get them to change. If they disagree you should continue to make your case and do all you can to convince them and others that your stance is better/best/right. Absolutely 100% agree with all of that.

The problem however is that just because you disagree with a rule in Elite does NOT give you the right or any kind of moral high ground to stand on while you cheat and break said rule. You're correct that many things in life aren't black and white. Hell the vast majority of life isn't black and white. Breaking the rules and/or cheating is black and white. Cheating is wrong, period. Whether you're cheating a little or cheating a lot it doesn't matter - Cheating Is Wrong.

None of us have the right to selectively obey and disobey the rules of something we engage in. If you think PvP killing is wrong you don't get to cheat to get around it. Let's say there was an exploit that I could use to transfer all the credits in your account to mine. That would be an exploit, just like clogging is an exploit. If I think that earning money is too hard and as such I decide I'm just going to take all your credits is that right? Why is that wrong but clogging isn't? Why do I have to follow one set of rules while you follow another?

We all play Elite because we enjoy it. If each of us decided what rules we wanted to follow and what rules we didn't do you think Elite would still be an enjoyable experience? Nope, it would fall apart very quickly. While there are rules we disagree with we should absolutely try to have those rules changed. But until that happens and they do change we should all be expected to follow the rules as they are at any given moment. As I've said - there is nothing special about you or your opinion that means you can cheat and I can't.

There are degrees of wrongness. Taking 20 dollars from someone is wrong, but nowhere near as wrong as committing a genocide. Stealing someone's entire credit balance would be very wrong. Combat logging, while still wrong, it is less wrong because it has no direct negative impact on the other person involved. Please note my use of the word direct. There is indirect impact due to the BGS and other factors, but that is much more subtle. The only time where a combat log would have a direct impact on a player is when that player is playing as a legit pirate. A case could be made for bounty hunter as well, but player bounties don't count for much as things are. I don't have a problem with those who engage in organized PvP. I don't engage myself because I don't care for it. My issue is with the psycho killer players out there. My issue is with unwanted PvP. Because my choice and what I want should also be taken into account, not just what the other guy wants. I get to have my say too. If I don't want to deal with a PvP encounter, I do everything I can to get out of it. High waking is my first option and it works almost all the time. I consider combat logging my last resort. The only time I ever consider using it is when everything else has failed, or if I am out of time. I have only ever had to use it twice, both times back in my old Adder, and I am not proud of it. However, I have learned and gotten much better since then. I don't see combat logging as a get out of jail free card, I see it as something that is an unfortunate option. Kinda like when a person has to steal food to survive, or kill someone in self-defense. You would rather not do it, but the situation didn't leave better options on the table.

If you see combat logging as a binary issue, then it is clear that I am going to have to respect your resolve to your opinion, but still disagree with it. We have gone back and forth on this a lot and we agree on many other things related to this topic. I can deal with that. You don't have to see everything my way.

Feel free to PM me here when you get around to joining the mischief. We are always looking for good pilots. I am more than happy to give you the loadout I use on my Cobra mk III and a few tricks I have learned so far.


Edit:

I chose the phrase "symptom of a disease and not the cause of it" was mostly rhetorical. The phrase illustrated my point and it was not intended to be taken literally. Perhaps I should have specified that in order to prevent confusion, my apologies.

 

[Maelkhor]

The issue I have is "I disagree with this rule/law so I'm going to decide for myself that I get to ignore it". We're not talking about civil rights here, we're talking about the rules of a game. Something we choose to play, not something we have a right to play. When you decide to engage in a non-public activity, like playing a game vs. say riding public transportation, ones rights go out the window. You absolutely have the right to ride public transportation and I applaud those like Rosa Parks who took a stand over that. However you do NOT have rights when it comes to private issues that you choose to engage in. When you choose to play a game like Elite you have to abide by the rules set out in that game. If you don't like them then of course you should discuss the reasons why with the games creators and do what you can to have it changed. Using that as justification to cheat is absolutely wrong and unfair to those that do follow the rules.

So while I enjoy and encourage any debate on features or rules as they relate to something like Elite if I decide to play I'm deciding to follow the rules as they are laid out. If I don't like them or find them offensive in some way I'll simply go play something else. Using that to justify cheating is never right. Cheating should never be acceptable, period.

On a general basis, I totally agree with your opinion on the matter, in fact I despise cheating in multiplayers games with a passion (and I mainly play multiplayer games).

But whenever there is a debate about ED pvp players, pve players, griefers, cloggers etc. it basically go round and end up full of hyperboles like "all pvp players are griefers", "if you don't want to be killed go solo", "I'll clog any ganker", "cloger should be killed with fire", "griefer should be burned with hotter fire", "cloger should be burned by plasma" [....].

And strangely, knowing how radical I am about cheating in general, I generally find it hard to blame cloggers and often end on their side rather than not... So I asked myself "Why?"

I think it is because I see the issue with a specific filter: The only thing I despise as much as cheaters in games are griefers (the dictionary definition: "a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members in order to spoil their enjoyment", synonyms are filtered by the forum auto-censoring engine), and Griefers, although being a tiny minority of the PVP players community, are a very vocal one with a disproportioned spotlight presence (Like articles about SDC in mainstream gaming media).

I will never blame anyone cloging a griefer, i'll even totally support him and ignore any reference to the fact ED ToS tolerate griefing and not cloging. And if someone out there had the superpower to make a griefer computer explode by cloging, I'll support him even more.

Another case : "I switched to do some CG/PVE mission, and generally switch to solo to be safe, because as a new player I don't have the assets to afford losing my T6, but i forgot to switch this time. Near the CG system I got interdicted by a commander who started shooting imediately after I submitted, no com, seconds later my shield was down and I started losing, I cloged... and switched to "

Similar case I've read in this forum (not exactly the same as I don't remember the details but basically it was equivalent). Well, this player clearly made an error , he know he had to be in solo has he couldn't afford the potential loss, but was what he did so bad? what are the impact of his actions? for the ganker, almost nothing, he lost 2 min interdicting a defensless target, the probability he is a mindless ganker, a sealcubber who would never interedict a target able to shoot back, or a griefer, seems pretty high in this case.

In those case, cloging is both inconsequential and directed against people who, IMO, deserves it and worse.
It doesn't compare by any mean to using a wallhack or an aimbot in a FPS match, at best it is akin to a ragequit, this is why it is stated as an exploit rather than a plain cheat.

This is I think why FD is very cautions aboot its actions against it, until they could find a way to technically prevent it. Shadow baning is a good countermeasure, but it is very hard to technically do it automatically without banning clean players (anyone can have a connexion issue one day).

On the other hand , there are more subtles and vicious long term consequences about the very existance of clogging, wich explain why FD tagged it as an exploit, it prevents legit pvp interaction to happen in games, eg. piracy is a valid gameplay element (but IMO, should be a lot more dangerous if almost impossible job in anything more secure than low sec systems -> lack of balanced C&P system), legit bounty hunting/player driven security force is impossible, as many sealcubber and griefers won't hesitate to clog themselve when hunted by pvp knights, also it is a stupidly dangerous and unrewarding job to do (lack of balanced C&P system, again). And as a result, "normal" pvp players are seen as

Rather than victim shaming (i've seen it happen on some threads) or pve bashing, this is , I think, the good argumental direction to take when arguing against clogging: It indeed grief griefers, but it also helps them in making Open such a mess and giving it its undeserved negative aura.

-- update --
And before any one tell me (again) that grefing is a valid gameplay option, I'll reply OK, but it is still not, for ME, a valid way to be a human being.

 

[Phileosophos]

Summary for those that don't want to read the analysis below let me sum it up. With my experience, which from talking with many commanders seems somewhat average (play time, earnings, etc) here are the main 2 stats

0.05% of total play time I was being griefed or killed
4.75% of my total assets was spent on rebuys

I haven't played open much, precisely because my experience the few times I have is the opposite of yours. The first time I played in open I was interdicted by the same jackass three times in rapid succession--no opportunity to win the mini game at all, back when it was more broken than it is now--and barely survived long enough to log out. Every time I've played since it's been the same thing: ats trying to destroy my ship for no reason other than it exists. The only change I've observed, in fact, is that they now have the chutzpah to whine if I don't simply let myself be destroyed.

I would prefer to play in open, largely because I'd prefer to meet other players and develop some in-game friends. But there's nothing resembling a safe system in the entire game. Even in the "safest" place there's no significant sanction against pirates, griefers, etc. So yeah, I do think it really is that bad, and I'd much prefer Frontier to add some mechanism for something resembling a PvE only version of open.

 

[Exigeous]

On a general basis, I totally agree with your opinion on the matter, in fact I despise cheating in multiplayers games with a passion (and I mainly play multiplayer games).

.....(lots of stuff in an attempt to rationalize cheating).....

And before any one tell me (again) that grefing is a valid gameplay option, I'll reply OK, but it is still not, for ME, a valid way to be a human being.

You can go on and on, round and round with as many justifications as you want. Or you can base opinion on facts. We all agree that griefers suck. What you are clearly incapable of understanding is VERY simple.

GRIEFING IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES.
CHEATING IS ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THE RULES.
YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL, YOU DO NOT GET TO SELECTIVELY FOLLOW ONLY THE RULES YOU AGREE WITH.

CHEATING IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* FAR FAR WORSE THAN GRIEFING.

Those are the facts. These are simple black and white issues. I'm in no way defending or supporting griefers. There's a thread right now where a Corvette pilot had a Sidewinder boost into him as he was coming in a station. The Vette was speeding so when the Sidewinder exploded he committed a crime and as such the station blew him up. He doesn't have enough to cover the rebuy so he's screwed and lost his Vette. The griefer who did this to him is an absolute and Frontier needs to do something to fix/prevent this type of griefing. While it sucks for him the rules are the rules. If you disagree with the rules of something, especially something that you *CHOOSE* to participate in, you shouldn't play that game. If you do decide to play the game you have to follow the same rules as everyone else. If you do something to get around those rules YOU ARE CHEATING, PERIOD.

What concerns me most about people who think they are better than or somehow more special than others in something like a video game is how those same people live their lives. If you are so delusional to think that you can selectively follow and ignore rules you want in a game one day you're going to get a rude awakening in life. It's very sad to me that you could be so unethical about something as silly as a video game.

I'm sure you'll reply with more comments and justifications as to why you get to cheat because reasons. You clearly can't understand simple black and white facts so this will be the last time I try to explain it to you. One last time

GRIEFING, WHILE "BAD" BEHAVIOR, DOES OR MAY NOT BREAK THE RULES
CHEATING *ALWAYS* IS AGAINST THE RULES
CHEATING IS *BY FAR* THE WORST BEHAVIOR ONE COULD EXHIBIT IN ANY GAME

 

[Maelkhor]

You can go on and on, round and round with as many justifications as you want. Or you can base opinion on facts. We all agree that griefers suck. What you are clearly incapable of understanding is VERY simple.

GRIEFING IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES.
CHEATING IS ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THE RULES.
YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL, YOU DO NOT GET TO SELECTIVELY FOLLOW ONLY THE RULES YOU AGREE WITH.

CHEATING IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* FAR FAR WORSE THAN GRIEFING.

Those are the facts. These are simple black and white issues. I'm in no way defending or supporting griefers. There's a thread right now where a Corvette pilot had a Sidewinder boost into him as he was coming in a station. The Vette was speeding so when the Sidewinder exploded he committed a crime and as such the station blew him up. He doesn't have enough to cover the rebuy so he's screwed and lost his Vette. The griefer who did this to him is an absolute and Frontier needs to do something to fix/prevent this type of griefing. While it sucks for him the rules are the rules. If you disagree with the rules of something, especially something that you *CHOOSE* to participate in, you shouldn't play that game. If you do decide to play the game you have to follow the same rules as everyone else. If you do something to get around those rules YOU ARE CHEATING, PERIOD.

What concerns me most about people who think they are better than or somehow more special than others in something like a video game is how those same people live their lives. If you are so delusional to think that you can selectively follow and ignore rules you want in a game one day you're going to get a rude awakening in life. It's very sad to me that you could be so unethical about something as silly as a video game.

I'm sure you'll reply with more comments and justifications as to why you get to cheat because reasons. You clearly can't understand simple black and white facts so this will be the last time I try to explain it to you. One last time

To make it clear, I've never cloged and doesn't intend to do it, as I've only been playing solo/mobius.
I've never cheated nor envisioned to cheat in any multiplayer game, as I said, I despise it.

Oh,ofc , I did often cheated in pure solo games, where cheat codes were litterally included by the dev, and you had to either type a code or do a specific combo on your gamepad in console (UUDDLRLRBA ). And almost everyone I know myself included used the exploit allowing item duplication in FF VII ... but thats not the subject.

Now the topic has derailed a bit, the original question if I remember correctly was why pve players persist in not wanting to switch, whereas the main obvious reason seems to be overrated, this "rules"/"cloging"/"griefing" discussion is still totally related.

GRIEFING, WHILE BEHAVIOR, DOES OR MAY NOT BREAK THE RULES
CHEATING *ALWAYS* IS AGAINST THE RULES

You are right, those are facts

CHEATING IS *BY FAR* THE WORST BEHAVIOR ONE COULD EXHIBIT IN ANY GAME

This is an opinion and we will have to agree to disagree. For me, and I think we are a lot here to think the same, griefing is by far worst than cheating behaviorally, at least it is in the context of ED. And in the worst case, like esport competition, they end up being literraly the same as the worst griefing action one could do would be cheating (not to win but to make the other team rage, otherwise it is not griefing anymore)


And strangely you nailed yourslef why : Ethical reason.

Cheating is not intrasecally unethical , if you cheat while player solitaire, it's you're problem, you're breaking the rule of the game and the only negative consequences is ruining your own sense of achievements.
Cheating is unethical in multiplayers games , because by wining in unfair conditions, you are potentially ruining the enjoyment of your oponent.

This is very important, the unethical aspect of cheating comes from the simple fact that the fundamental ethic principle "ones freedom stops were someone elses starts" is not respected.

In many case, the effect of cheating are the same as the effect of griefings : ruining the enjoyment of other players.


But there is one aspect of griefing that make it worse, it is the intention, a cheater may just not care about the enjoyment of other players, whereas a griefer is ruining it on purpose, for the sake of it, for the lulz. It IS ethically worse by definition.

Now about ED specifically, why would player feel the need to respect any ethics (not cloging) in a game where the devs and the rules seems adamant to allow the most unethical behavior that can exists in a multiplayer gaming environment ?

-- Updated conclusion --

That is actually my definitive answer to the question : "PVE players, why you no open?, it is not that bad":

ED is still a multiplayer game, and so you are right cheating indeed have ethical consequences, I'm not going to debate these as I've already given my opinion on my previous post.
So the only 100% ethical solution left for me to play the game in its current state is : not playing in open at all.

 

[Cupcake]

I haven't played open much, precisely because my experience the few times I have is the opposite of yours. The first time I played in open I was interdicted by the same jackass three times in rapid succession--no opportunity to win the mini game at all, back when it was more broken than it is now--and barely survived long enough to log out. Every time I've played since it's been the same thing: ats trying to destroy my ship for no reason other than it exists. The only change I've observed, in fact, is that they now have the chutzpah to whine if I don't simply let myself be destroyed.

I would prefer to play in open, largely because I'd prefer to meet other players and develop some in-game friends. But there's nothing resembling a safe system in the entire game. Even in the "safest" place there's no significant sanction against pirates, griefers, etc. So yeah, I do think it really is that bad, and I'd much prefer Frontier to add some mechanism for something resembling a PvE only version of open.

I am sorry BUT you have tyo see the funny side, you "think" you are griefed by a person who tried to interdict you??? Really? I find it odd that you not crying about the NPC's griefing you with the chained interdictions as they are lol What a joke. The game is working as intended, these special people who do not think rules apply to them need to get a grip. Logging IS cheating and is indefensible, if anyone posts an article advocating it or admitting they use it, they should be permabanned, period.

 

[Luniticisi]

Of course you shouldn't come back into the bubble in Open in a situation like that, that really would be stupid. This is one of the edge cases where the risk is just way WAY too big. You could call a friend or Iridium Wing to escort you back in, that's what I would do as I love the additional risk and immersion that Open would add. If, however you do decide to come back in flying open, someone grabs you and you combat log IMHO you're FAR worse than a ganker. There is almost no excuse for combat logging, especially if you put yourself in a risky situation that's your fault and exploiting the game is still very wrong. If say you're out in the middle of no where and all of a sudden you drop into a system and see a Python sitting there and he starts heading toward you it's definitely time to log out. In that situation you wouldn't be combat logging as if you exit before you're in danger there's no need, you can just exit.

BEING CLEAR 99% OF THE TIME COMBAT LOGGING IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL MOVE WITH ZERO EXCUSE

Woah ! where did that come from? I say people must be off their rockers if they think I am going to play in open on a trip to Sag A* and back .. and you go into a rant about combat logging ??

 

[teufeldritch]

2 hours & 43 minutes. That's how long I was in Open this morning before I was interdicted, attacked & destroyed by another player. No chat, no tells, just whizz-bang-boom! Not a complaint, I knew what I was getting into when I selected 'Open.' Just a observation & some info for those that may be interested.

 

[Exigeous]

I am sorry BUT you have tyo see the funny side, you "think" you are griefed by a person who tried to interdict you??? Really? I find it odd that you not crying about the NPC's griefing you with the chained interdictions as they are lol What a joke. The game is working as intended, these special people who do not think rules apply to them need to get a grip. Logging IS cheating and is indefensible, if anyone posts an article advocating it or admitting they use it, they should be permabanned, period.

It's so nice to know that there are people out there with ethics and that understand that for the vast majority of things in life there are simple black and white, right and wrong answers. Cheating is unethical, period. As you say it is absolutely indefensible. If someone thinks a rule in a game, a game they are choosing to play, is "wrong" they have the simple choice of not playing that game. What they do not have a choice about is selectively following the rules they do like and ignoring the rules they don't. Tonight while pirating I had 2 Corvettes drop in while I was fighting with another FDL. I immediately stowed and started to charge as I didn't want to get destroyed by 2 Corvettes, ships that are much more powerful than I. Should I have been able to say "hey, that's not fair, I was fighting with that FDL, you don't get to join that fight" and somehow make my ship invulnerable to the Corvette? With @Maelkhor's logic I should, I don't think the Corvettes should have been able to join that fight so I should be able to cheat and make it so they can't shoot at me.

It's amazing to me how much art/game is imitating life here. So many these days feel they can do whatever they want, that they can follow the rules they choose or agree with and simply ignore the ones they don't. These people will get a wake up call some day when they learn they absolutely are NOT special and the rules of whatever system or process is at play are applied to them just like they are to everyone else.

What amazes me the most is that someone would go on and on making up so much crap to try to justify or otherwise rationalize cheating. I just Googled the definition of cheating and how perfectly it applies here. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination. If the rules of a game allow a player to kill another player then by definition that's part of the game. If those rules allow me to simply bother or otherwise annoy another player in a game again it is part of the game. If the rules say you CAN NOT do something, like combat logging, and you do that to gain advantage then you ARE CHEATING. There's no black and white here. There's no value judgement made on the behavior. If you act in a way that the game allows you aren't cheating. If you act in a way that the game does NOT allow then you are cheating. There's no gray. No interpretation. Nothing to debate or discuss. If you are cheating you are wrong. Cheating in any form is wrong, period.

Feel free to again do all you can to twist things to fit your argument. Have I cheated in solitaire, of course I have. Was that okay because it only affected me, NO, it was cheating and it was wrong. Have I used cheat codes in single player games, yup, done that too. Was it right, NO, it was WRONG. If you want to insert some gray here you could say that cheating in a solo game isn't as bad as cheating in a multiplayer game, yeah, okay I'd agree with that. But the reality is simple, cheating in any form IS WRONG. PERIOD. BLACK AND WHITE. WRONG.

I said I was done with this and I still posted this as I just can't stand people who think they are special, better than others or that they can selectively apply rules as they see fit. As I will never interact with you in any way, not in Elite and not in real life I no longer care. You can be as unethical as you'd like and justify that in any way you like.

- - - Updated - - -

Woah ! where did that come from? I say people must be off their rockers if they think I am going to play in open on a trip to Sag A* and back .. and you go into a rant about combat logging ??

Uh, what? Sorry, I'm not following you. I'll be clear as I guess I wasn't. Combat logging is breaking the rules, breaking the rules is cheating. There is no excuse or defensible position for cheating. If you're cheating in something, especially something like an online game, you should be banned from that game and not allowed to play it. Period. Black and white, end of story.

Is that more clear?

 

[Gunnet]

This is one of the problems with black and white morality. It creates ludicrous situations like getting creative with solitaire being "wrong" in the grand sense of the word. To say nothing of what can happen once people start blindly believing things are "right" when they're told so.