To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[Gunnet]

The world already working like a multiplayer.....there are only some major difference, you cant ragequit or play in solo sessions
And if you always run away, you know, sooner or later you have to face the situation.

There are a couple of other major differences. In the real world, if you walk up to a group of people who are cooperating to do something and wreck what they're doing to amuse yourself, you're going to get hurt. In the real world, if you kill somebody because you were bored or maladjusted or whatever, your life is over.

Players who want to attack others at random probably don't want to go down the "but it's realistic!" route on this topic. That path ends in your character being "realistically" executed or condemned to 25+ years in prison.

 

[Ziljan]

There are a couple of other major differences. In the real world, if you walk up to a group of people who are cooperating to do something and wreck what they're doing to amuse yourself, you're going to get hurt. In the real world, if you kill somebody because you were bored or maladjusted or whatever, your life is over.

Players who want to attack others at random probably don't want to go down the "but it's realistic!" route on this topic. That path ends in your character being "realistically" executed or condemned to 25+ years in prison.

Well in truth that is the law that applies to regular people. Players in Elite are not regular people. And in the real world, the Elites are largely above the law. Many examples of being impervious to justice once you get enough money, or get embedded within the pet structure, even if you just open up today's headlines. I'm not saying that in Elite pilots should be above the law, quite the opposite. But you're not going to win this argument with "realism".

In absolute realism the only law that exists is the law of the jungle: might makes right.

 

[Karunamon]

I'm sorry but I really dont understand the mentality of your argument here. You are saying a player that enters open mode and kills another player who is in open by CHOICE is a bad ganker/griefer? If a player doesnt want to "pewpew" as you so eloquently put it, they are free to use private group or solo, all the things you need are already there, you just want your cake and eat it too.

You basically restated what he did dude. If you don't wanna PvP, there is nothing for you in open but frustration.

That is a fact...

 

[verminstar]

The issue is not in getting killed because we got the order to drop cargo and ran...its the pure ganking mentality. Its childish and pointless and boring to play with. Its also highly unpredictable as in it may not happen often, but when it does, there is no honour in it. Its a cheap shot in a fight...below the belt so to speak. Actually being killed isnt the issue...its how one dies is an issue fer me. Then again, I play because of the challenge in solo because I intentionally make the game harder for myself there...always stick with smaller ships and its ironman mode...ye die just once and yer back in a sidey with a grand in yer pocket and a dry eye because that is a choice.

Ergo open play is not viable because of that unpredictability factor...its simply too much to risk simply so somone gets a 10 second buzz from it. My time is worth more than theirs so I literally couldnt care less about pvp players. The term pvp players is perhaps a broad description, though not meant in the context that I think all pvp is bad...the element of being genuinely pirated by a genuine role playing pirate is something I particularly enjoy...I always run until I cant run. But players who play that game are outnumbered by those who fire without demands or warning. They are not playing nice and thats the problem...I dont want them in my game...at all.

Unfortunately, removing them from my game means removing all player interaction entirely. Over time...this tends to make one a tad bitter...apologies if this seething undercurrent of resentment is only barely concealed, but if knowing that Im not hiding and cowering in fear is hurting yer ego then git gud and grow a pair ^^

 

[=71st=RuSh]

You forgot to tell that you made the millions when Robigo/Sothis/Ceos were fully operational, and the loss could be replenished in a couple of hours. With the kind of missions we have right now, the amount of hours lost in the rebuy is bigger! My deaths have costed me more than 11 millions each! and I have died interdicted by modded ships more than five times! time to die? 10-30 seconds!

 

[Gunnet]

Well in truth that is the law that applies to regular people. Players in Elite are not regular people. And in the real world, the Elites are largely above the law. Many examples of being impervious to justice once you get enough money, or get embedded within the pet structure, even if you just open up today's headlines. I'm not saying that in Elite pilots should be above the law, quite the opposite. But you're not going to win this argument with "realism".

In absolute realism the only law that exists is the law of the jungle: might makes right.

I'm not trying to win the argument with realism. I'm pointing out that realism is a bad argument.

But we can keep playing that game if you want. In the real world, elites are indeed often above the law. But only with regards to how they treat non-elites. Touching another "made man" will result in the other elites turning on them. The Pilots Federation would "realistically" (and I believe it actually does in lore) have no tolerance for members attacking each other, even if it did ensure they received only a slap on the wrist for harming "commoners".

"Might makes right" means large groups oppressing small ones. One side in this debate is a significant majority of the playerbase.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

All this open v solo garbage.
You know I think the only people who really have a problem are those who cant kill the CMDRs who are influencing the systems they are based in. Boo Hoo.
...

Ironically, killing CMDRs who are influencing the systems they are based in virtually has no influence on those systems. Influencing systems is entirely a PvE activity.

 

[Exigeous]

As several people here keep trying to insist that I want to control how others play or pass judgment in some way over the way they play I thought I'd simply quote myself on that topic. I went through and re-read every reply I've made to this thread, below is a list of quotes taken from my posts on the subject of right/wrong play styles, that playing in solo is somehow bad and the notion that I would judge or look down on anyone for the way they play Elite. Hopefully this will finally illustrate my opinions on the topic, so here we go

Being clear I strongly believe that everyone has the right to play how they want, in no way am I passing judgement or saying someone should play my or another other way. Who the hell would I be to dictate that??

I have no agenda here other than sharing what I enjoy with others.

Again being 100% clear I'm not judging anyone nor saying that my way is the "right" way. There is NO right way to play Elite and thank god for me no wrong (as I'd surely be getting it wrong!!)

It's great that FDev created solo/private as I'm sure there are many other commanders that feel as you do (I don't enjoy PvP)

I absolutely think everyone should play how they want

I've stated many times that you should play the way that you enjoy most, if that's solo then fantastic

I fully agree that everyone has a right to play exactly how they want

I'm certainly not going to judge them in any way for that

I've never once said someone is absurd for not playing open. I'd never say anyone is absurd/wrong for the way they choose to play Who am I to tell them how to spend their time?

I've always said, and said it many many times, that everyone has the right to play how they want

That's my opinion, am I right? Of course not. Am I wrong, again of course not.

THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG IN THE WAY YOU PLAY ELITE UNLESS YOU EXPLOIT.

I'm not passing judgment on how people play, why on Earth would I?

Many choose to play in solo/private as they do get upset and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

I didn't say one was right/better and one wrong/worse.

if you enjoy playing Elite in solo fantastic, I'm glad to hear you enjoy Elite

everyone has a right to their opinion and to the way they play Elite

Does that clarify my thoughts on the matter or do I have to keep beating my head against the wall?

~X

- - - Updated - - -

Now that that's out of the way a few more thoughts/responses.

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even having just 0.05% of the time spent in PvP, and less than 2% of my resources lost to it, is unacceptable for me.

100% totally great, can't argue with that in any way. As I've (tried) to say you get to make this decision and while I might feel differently and may espouse those thoughts I'm very glad Elite gives us/you the choice of open/solo/private.

...it will likely be with a combat log macro ready to fire and a hardware lag switch as a failsafe.

PLEASE DON'T EVER PLAY IN OPEN. While it's somewhat commendable that you'd admit this if you need to cheat and exploit the game by doing one of the few things Frontier has said is a banable offense (along with vulgar language, etc) then I hope you continue to enjoy solo. Clearly multiplayer games just aren't for you.

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Why would you think ANY ganking is fun for the victim? If a player doesn't wanna pewpew then there is NOTHING positive you can get from open, only negatives....

....but you ignore us saying "we don't want to get ganked AT ALL".

...numbers were irrelevant because they ARE irrelevant TO WHY WE DON'T ENJOY OPEN

Ugh, and again you don't read nor understand what I'm saying. First let me quote myself a couple times since you didn't get it the first time

GANKERS SUCK. GETTING GANKED SUCKS. THERE SHOULD BE SOME GAME MECHANIC THAT IMPOSES VERY HARSH PENALTIES ON GANKERS, RUNNING THEM OUT OF A SYSTEM OR MAKING GAME PLAY VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM. I IN NO WAY BLAME, JUDGE, CONDEMN ANYONE FOR PLAYING SOLO OR PRIVATE IF THEY WANT TO BE 100% SURE THEY NEVER ENCOUNTER ONE.

THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG IN THE WAY YOU PLAY ELITE UNLESS YOU EXPLOIT.

I'll add another statement along the same lines as maybe you'll finally understand me.

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ENJOY ELITE IN ANY WAY YOU CHOOSE. WHO AM I TO TELL ANYONE HOW TO DO ANYTHING THEY ENJOY. IF YOU'RE NOT BREAKING THE LAW THEN HAVE AT IT AND I GENUINELY HOPE YOU HAVE A GREAT TIME AT IT, WHATEVER IT IS.

I think part of the issue here is you and others, those on both sides of the discussion are trying to "win" an argument. This isn't/shouldn't be an argument, it should be (and I intended it to be) a discussion. That's why I asked questions from the start. When I posted this I genuinely didn't understand why so many play in solo, I almost use the term are "scared" to play in solo but that's a silly word in this context as this is a game. I've heard everything from "it wastes a lot of time, it costs me lots of rebuys", etc. I've also heard, just as you say, that any level of ganking is absolutely unacceptable. The reason I posted some stats around my experience is I was trying to bring some logic into the discussion, I wanted to some who might not play in open due to time or money to really think about how much time/money this costs them. With that information they might say "nope, sorry, any time/money lost isn't worth it to me" and they might say "uh, I never really thought of it that way". Either way I achieved my goal which is I hoped people would think about and discuss this time with that perspective.

For those like yourself that see no benefit from open and for whom ganking is 100% unacceptable it's fantastic that Frontier gives us/you solo. I absolutely mean that. If they didn't have that, and private options, when this topic was discussed I'd be screaming that we need options for players that don't want to play open. I'd make this argument all the while being perfectly happy to play in open/without the solo/private option.

So let's do this. First let's calm down a bit. Let's realize that I think, no I hope, we agree on this. Everyone has different things they enjoy, and different ways they want to play. I think we both agree there is nothing wrong with that. We both agree that each individual player has every right to play how they want. You want solo, fantastic, you get solo. I want open, fantastic I get open. I may feel like you're missing out on a lot of fun gameplay elements and you may feel like I'm missing out on the relaxation of no PvP. You're not wrong, I'm not right. You're not right and I'm not wrong.

Does that make sense? Can we agree to, well agree?

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in a game where you can do what ever you want No because you can do whatever you want there are players cheating or using exploites but nether of these are griefing either and you will find these players using this term for anything ANYTHING that they dont like or upsets them

Sorry but I have to STRONGLY disagree with this. We're starting to pick nits here - griefing isn't defined as exploiting or doing something the game doesn't allow. Griefing is making things a pain in the @ss for someone for no other reason than to be a pain in their @ss. While killing doesn't necessarily mean griefing that doesn't mean all killing is not griefing. If I interdict a player for piracy and the outcome of that is they die in my mind that isn't griefing. If I sit at a POI (ancient ruins) only to kill people as they arrive that's griefing. If I'm flying in a Federation system and a player pledged to the Alliance appears and I kill them that's not griefing. If I interdict someone just to kill them for no in-game reason that's griefing.

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...you didn't seem to take into account the time lost by assets lost to rebuy & earning said assets back again. I imagine that would be much more significant.

That's a valid point, just not something I could quantify. I suppose you could determine the amount of time it takes to earn X millions of dollars and relate that to rebuy cost time. That's near impossible to do, a Viper pilot might only make $2M/hour bounty hunting where I might make $200M doing something like 17 Draconis skimmer missions. While I don't think it would be significant I will agree that the number you're referring to is likely a good deal higher than the.

...there's people who are fine with losing... ...I am not one of these people. ...this just means I can't answer the question in

Not sure why you say you can't answer as I think you did very well. You clearly thinking ganking is "that bad" as it's bad enough to keep you out of open. As I keep trying to make clear that's totally great of you.

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Can somebody please explain to me what's the point of choosing a game mode which includes other players, then having the highest goal of avoiding them?

I think you're missing the point here. The advice I and others give on surviving an interdiction/experience is universal to commanders or NPCs. You avoid both in the same way. When I see a ship on my scanner moving in behind me, commander or NPC, I start paying attention so I'm on my toes. I'll likely plot a jump to a nearby system using my Navigation list so if I do get grabbed I can just high wake out if necessary. Sure I pay a bit more attention if it's a commander but either way I'm paying attention.

There's also an easy way to gauge what another commander is doing. Every time I jump into a system, every time, I look at my comms panel. If I see a ship at top with only a ship name I know it's a commander. If so I immediately send them a salute, o7. If I get no response and they're in a combat ship I start paying very close attention to what they're doing. The VAST majority of the time I get a salute back or a quick "hey, what's up?". Virtually every time I'll have a polite little chat with them and if they ask what I'm up to, and I'm pirating, I'll say so. In turn I get this from other commanders often and I too always reply. If they ask what I'm doing I'll say "just a little piracy role playing, you?" which is usually met with "HA, well don't come after me!" to which I always reply with something light and funny and I've never once pirated a player like this.

Recently while hunting in a CG system with a few friends we came across a wing of 3 FDLs that were highly engineered. To test the waters I started chatting with one, and while he was nice it was clear he had aggressive intentions. He replied "I see your Python wingmate has a bounty, hmmm" to which I replied "yeah, I noticed you have the same". 5 seconds later I decided to strike first and grabbed him. When my wingmates dropped in with an Anaconda and Python so did his two other FDLs. For about 10 seconds it was extremely exciting, I'd never seen 3x3 commanders in a battle. I say 10 seconds as at the 11 second mark he opened fire and at the 13 second mark I was dead, laughing my @ss off. Moments later the Python was dead and the Conda high waked with about 20% hull. We all had a fantastic time and when I got back to the system I again chatted with the FDL that got me asking about his build, etc. In the end he was a rather nice guy and as such I didn't mind "loosing" at all.

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Does it still make sense to play in open? What I've seen in chats so far wasn't worth it neither.

but a huge +1 for the OP and his still apparently intact faith in humankind!
Almost tempted to come back to open, even if it won't make much sense to me...

Once again I say it's great that you enjoy Elite on your terms, as you should. I appreciate the kind words, I do genuinely think people are good by nature and while I know the truth is otherwise I'll always give someone the benefit of the doubt. Like many I enjoy how I play so of course I'm going to encourage others to at least try it as they may have the same kind of fun that I do. If not awesome, play in solo and come by Discord and we can interact there. More than half the guys I chat with in Discord only play in solo. As such I never ask them to wing up, etc. as I know they won't. For the ones that will play in Mobius I'm happy to join them there when they dictate as much. Never once have I said "come on you baby, let's go in open", why would I?

Would love to have you fly with/near me in open but if it's not your bag then enjoy solo my friend.

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as the OP said, high value data,
I returned to the bubble after this little jaunt in my Sidewinder; so no open for me, I almost asked for an escort as is. [where is it]

Holy my friend, that's a fantastic screenshot. You're absolutely right that it would be almost, no fully stupid for you to come back home in open. Even in solo an escort might be nice, if you ever need/want one feel free to friend me and we can wing up, even if that's in Mobius private. I don't have a fully engineered Vette or Conda but I'd absolutely sacrifice my FDL or other so you could get away. I've saved 2 commanders this way, I dropped in on a Vette once and a Conda the other who were attacking an Asp Ex. I was able to draw fire long enough for them to high wake out so I was happy they survived. Even dying in this case was an absolute blast and I made two new friends in the process.

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Why oh why does this keep coming up??

Wait, has this been discussed before? I couldn't find a thread on it, can you share a link (I say with my tongue sticking through my cheek). The reasons I started yet another thread on this topic was I wanted to put some numbers behind my experience to dispel what I think are myths around open, that you get ganked constantly loosing a ton of time and money. Again my experience. Second was to genuinely ask those that don't play in open why, I'm just a curious guy.

It is about playing a game in one of the 3 equal modes provided by the developers... ...Open is in no way special or superior

You are absolutely, t-totally, 100%, hit the bullseye, on the mark, couldn't be more correct - correct. 100%.

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You lost me with your condescension and implied superiority.... And as to getting through, I see your argument and through your argument.

I'm sorry but never once, not for a second did I say nor intend to imply that I'm superior in any way. Not in how I play Elite, not in my combat skills, not in my general knowledge. There are only 2 areas where I am "superior" to most others, auto racing and guide dog training. I've done the former for 10+ years and the latter for 20+ I'm sorry that the posting of the facts around my experiences and my opinion mean that I'm arguing with you or anyone else. If, however, you want to make this an argument that can be "won" then great, you win. Your opinion is clearly more valid and your play style clearly must be right. Congrats on winning an argument that I had no intent to start nor intent to win. I wanted to start a discussion around my experience and I felt that by adding some numbers to that experience it might engender a different type of discussion. You win again as you've clearly shown me I was wrong there as well.

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All this open v solo garbage.... ...As far as I'm concerned we as players are given a choice and having choice is good. Play what ever way you want.

Why do people always try to control the actions of others ?

While I certainly don't think a discussion like this is garbage, trying to say one is "right" and the other "wrong" is garbage, you're right there. You're also right that choice is always good and that of course everyone should play the way they enjoy. As for why some want to control the actions of others I think there are two issues there. There are those of us that really enjoy the way to play (insert thing here) and as such we might want to share that with others as we think they might find it fun as well. There are then of course those that do want to control what you do or at least do their best to impact your actions - and we all agree the name for that is "griefers/gankers" and we all agree they SUCK.

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This lines up almost exactly with my experience of playing for 20 months..... ...I'm sure my mortality rate was similar to yours in my first 400 hours. Still very small by any metric when compared to the PVE portion. And most of my deaths have been PVE, or suicides to clear PVE bounties accrued from playing the BGS.

For those who keep asking why I posted the stats and that they are irrelevant ^ this is exactly why I did so. I wanted to see if others with a level head had a similar experience, a better experience or a worse experience. From reading those who have remained level headed and discussed these issues thinking about their own stats it seems that my experience is *very* typical of those that play in Open.

 

[Suohhen]

I'm sorry but I really dont understand the mentality of your argument here. You are saying a player that enters open mode and kills another player who is in open by CHOICE is a bad ganker/griefer? If a player doesnt want to "pewpew" as you so eloquently put it, they are free to use private group or solo, all the things you need are already there, you just want your cake and eat it too.

Which is why many of us stay in open or private group. It is our free time we are spending, and we don't want our time or work wasted because of somebody else deciding to destroy us. If I could play in open without the threat of unwanted PVP, I might consider it sometimes. I would have no problem having "my cake and eating it to". I really love cake.

 

[Sandmann]

I'm sorry but I really dont understand the mentality of your argument here. You are saying a player that enters open mode and kills another player who is in open by CHOICE is a bad ganker/griefer? If a player doesnt want to "pewpew" as you so eloquently put it, they are free to use private group or solo, all the things you need are already there, you just want your cake and eat it too.

No, you're wrong, that's not what I am saying. There's legitimate PvP, there's piracy, there's ganking, and there's griefing. You KNOW the difference because it's been explained to you before but let's go through it again anyway. Gankers, aka seal clubbers, like to find vastly inferior opponents and attack them, often in wings, for no in game reason but simply because they are a hollow square and because there are no consequences. Sure, if you join open you accept that others can atrack you within the bounds of the game, but since we're not playing whack-a-mole I'm unwilling to accept ganking or griefing that occurs simply because there's no good reason NOT to do it - ie: no real crime and punishment system.

- - - Updated - - -

You basically restated what he did dude. If you don't wanna PvP, there is nothing for you in open but frustration.

That is a fact...

Pretty much, yep.

 

[Exigeous]

Oh, one (likely) last thought on the topic. I've really enjoyed the vast majority of the discussion here, in spite of the few who would rather argue than discuss. In some ways I think it correlates directly to the open/solo discussion. There are a very small few that just have to be right/wrong just like the small group of pilots who scream that Open is so dangerous and bad due to a very small amount of PvP contact. I feel they do a disservice to many new players as they can sometimes scare them to the point they won't even try Open. I tend to do a lot of Elite training in the Discords I frequent. If someone wants some help or explanation I'm happy to drop to a sub-channel with them to answer all their questions and help them out. Sometimes this is a few questions over 15 minutes. Several times it's been a detailed overview of Elite taking many hours (I spent more than 3 hours with a new commander this week who'd just bought the game). At the end they were extremely nice and thankful for my time which I didn't mind giving at all. For me it's similar to the auto racing I do. I've been racing for almost 10 years and almost always finish on the podium. I'm also a performance/racing instructor for BMW and Porsche. I absolutely love racing, it's by far the most mentally demanding and ultimately rewarding thing I've ever done. And while I love sitting left seat I would happily miss a few sessions or race to help a new/advanced driver grow their skills. I enjoy sharing what I'm passionate about with others, I've also been an educator most of my life. Taught private music lessons in college. Have been training dogs (and their humans) for 20+ years. I've been a driving instructor for 8+. I've done various technical training projects with staff at my various IT jobs.

I love sharing my passions with others, especially when they have a similar passion. That's why I make comments that I hope others will play in Open. I think it's fantastic so I'm going to share those thoughts with others. If they decide that passion isn't for them absolutely no problem, find your own passion in life and if I can help you grow or learn more about it then it's a win-win.

This really has been a fun conversation for me and I thank the many who have replied with sincere and level headedness. Simply put to thost I o7 you.

~X

 

[Sandmann]

I understand you just fine. I think perhaps the problem is that you don't understand my response, which is why you are claiming I'm saying things that I'm not, so I will try again.

.For those like yourself that see no benefit from open and for whom ganking is 100% unacceptable it's fantastic that Frontier gives us/you solo. I absolutely mean that. If they didn't have that, and private options, when this topic was discussed I'd be screaming that we need options for players that don't want to play open. I'd make this argument all the while being perfectly happy to play in open/without the solo/private option.

Let's see... first you ask "why do so many of you play in solo when ganking is very rare and here.is the proof". From this one assumes that YOU DON'T KNOW WHY WE DO IT, right? If you knew why you wouldn't be asking. So I tell you why. I tell you that it has nothing to do with your numbers and that it's generally either about ganking/griefing existing AT ALL, or about the lack of consequences for it, or about a simple desire to either not engage in any pvp and in some cases to play a single player game. You asked the question, I answered it. I'm not try to "win" anything, I didn't accuse you of judging anyone, nor am I trying to convince you. I simply answered your question. Twice now you've become upset at my answer and claimed mistakenly that I've accused you of all sorts of stuff.

You want solo, fantastic, you get solo.

Actually what I want is to play in open with a real C&P system. Failing that I play in Mobius.

See, after jumping up and down claiming I'd accused you of intolerance, judementalism, etc because I told you that your stats had nothing to do with the reason, you then say this:

For those who keep asking why I posted the stats and that they are irrelevant ^ this is exactly why I did so. I wanted to see if others with a level head had a similar experience, a better experience or a worse experience. From reading those who have remained level headed and discussed these issues thinking about their own stats it seems that my experience is *very* typical of those that play in Open.

I'd already told you, and I will tell you again... noone is disputing your numbers. They are quite possibly 100% accurate, but they have nothing to do with the question. The ONLY people who say anything about ganking etc being common is people who are screaming that it's NOT, while at the same time not listening when people tell you "we agree that it is uncommon and we STILL are unwilling to accept it". It's certainly common in certain "hotspots", but in general it's pretty uncommon.

TL;DR You asked Why we don't play in open and "Is ganking/griefing really that bad" and supplied numbers to back up your argument that it's not. We answered that we agree that it's uncommon and that even so ANY ganking is unacceptable and is WHY we don't play in open, thus your numbers are irrelevant to the question.

 

[Maelkhor]

One argument that is also overused is assuming people who don't want to play in open are not fit for/don't like multiplayer games at all. Or that they just don't like to "lose" in a game. That may be true for a lot of solo/mobius players, but I'm pretty sure there is also a lot of players (like myself) who enjoy multiplayers game a lot, and still won't put a single feet in ED open in its current state.

The reason for me is simple, I enjoy a game when it is fair, were only skill matters, and where matchmaking makes sense. Multiplayer games are commonly compared to sport eg. the new trending e-sport community. I've tried to think of an IRL game or sport that is basically unballanced and couldn't think of anyone, saves casino games (which are scams from a pure statistical pov), or no limit poker where players at the table are mixed in term of assets.

In sports, or competition boardgames (like chess), teams/players have rank, and it is unlikely and unwanted to show totally unbalanced confrontation, this is akin to multiplayer matchmaking. There is no point to confront world class champs to amateurs unless both consent for the fun of it.

Unfairness exists in some multiplayer games, but it generally comes with unconsequential loss like most mmorpgs, which incidently also generally prevent unconsensual pvp (pvp tag etc.) .
Hardcore/Ironman mode also exists, but it is a special case. Those games generally allow fast progression, even those that needs "long" grind would qualify as lighning fast compared to ED.
EVE high/low sec C&P system can be simplified as both a matchmaking and tagging mechanism, one can stay safe in an otherwise lot harsher than ED setup until he feel confident to engage in more risky action, at his discretion. Also, taking those risk is really rewarded.

ED is the worst of all, it is all risk no reward for the one engaged in pve activities, unfair as currently stuff (grind) > skill, PVE setup as 0% chance against a PVP setup (ok one can highwake anytime, although with RNGenginer, it is easier to melt small pve ships in less than 10sec , but this would also mean than playing open vs solo just add unwated loading screens to the game), easy to abuse (combat log), and even for the player actively seeking pvp encounters again pve target, it is no risk no reward.

The fact griefing is rare, or very rare is irrelevant to me, the fact the game is set up the way it is is enough to prevent me from even wanting to participate in it. Anarchic pvp can be fun and all, but not if you can lose weeks of progress in a single bad luck day, because of some psycho's schadenfreud. I value my time more than that, and ED isn't my main hobby at all.

Now if someone can play 6hr+ a day and ED has been is main hobby for 2 years, he is most likely billionaire by now, with a full A rated enginered fleet of everything, and doesn't care losing a dozen of battles. It is not and will most likely never be my case.

After really quick rereading , i realise that all of this can be sumarized like this : ED main gameplay incentive is aquiring ships and stuff, doing so in a timely fashion is hard enough for casual players ( be they pve or pvp oriented players), who will be totally outmatched against long time players,. Doing so will only slow down their already limited progress in the game. Some don't care about this progression aspect and are fine playing in a C fitted viper for months, it is cynically fun when the one who says that are in fact already as rich as midas and collecting A rated anaconda all around the bubble (true story), but I'm sure some genuinly do. Some don't, eg. the game is grindy enough for me to bother looking behind my back everytime I enter a system, or highwake and lose more time anytime I get interdicted. I'll add for the context that for me, gameplay wide, ED is merely a space sim engine , the best there ever was/is, but as a Game, it is at best an early alpha, playing it in its state already feels like loosing my time a little, I just love the space sim engine so much.

 

[Maelkhor]

I'm sorry but I really dont understand the mentality of your argument here. You are saying a player that enters open mode and kills another player who is in open by CHOICE is a bad ganker/griefer? If a player doesnt want to "pewpew" as you so eloquently put it, they are free to use private group or solo, all the things you need are already there, you just want your cake and eat it too.

By definition, griefing is not related to not respecting stated/unstated rules, an action is qualified as grief for causal and moral reason: having fun by deliberatly ruining the fun of other players. Whatever your action, if this definition is the reason behind it, then it qualifies as griefing, no matter if you have legible right to act so.
So anytime a player think "I'll make some noobs rage, for the lulz", he is griefing by the book.
The noob playing in open is unrelated to the definition, unless the said griefer is not actually having fun but is genuinly triggered by noobs entering open, and that would be a very interesting case to study from a psychological pov.

Also, griefing is always bad from a moral standpoint, "bad griefing" is pleonasm, now unless we go to debate about E.Kant theories about it, you may argue that moral is a subjective/cultural quantity, but I don't know any real moral culture putting this behavior in the "good" side of the balance, ha wait, there is maybe some: some gaming forum subset often show twisted moral biases...

 

[Exigeous]

Well here goes my last attempt to try to get through to you - what baffles me the most is from re-reading your posts well feel the exact same way about virtually everything. The only difference is that I play in open despite the small potential to get ganked and you fly in solo to ensure there is no potential to get ganked. Both are 100% valid play styles and I ADAMANTLY support both. I simply wanted to point out that the facts of my experience show me that the benefits of playing in open outweigh any negatives. Your experience shows you the benefits of playing in solo. When I say "that's a shame" what I mean is I wish there were more people playing in open, period. Not because I want to gank, grief or pirate them. Simply because seeing other commanders deepens the immersion to me, flying around in a world with nothing but NPCs seem incredibly dull to me. Every single time I see a hollow square on my scanner, no matter what I'm doing, I get slightly excited as "look, another human, yippie!!!". It is 100% cool that you don't feel that way and instead would say "look, another human, RUN!!"

So looking at a few of your comments from posts past...

....first you ask "why do so many of you play in solo when ganking is very rare and here.is the proof".

And here we go again, more putting words in my mouth. Please show me anywhere in this thread where I used any word like or that implied what I've posted is "proof". Not once have I made such a statement. What I have said was after a conversation with other players I was curious about the stats around ganking/griefing as it pertained to me. That's the only data set I have, my own. I've been VERY careful not to say anything even remotely like "see, this is why playing in open isn't that bad". So please show me where I said or implied that my play style is best, better or any superlative you can come up with. I'll save you the time, there is no such statement as I don't in any way feel that way.

...If you knew why you wouldn't be asking. So I tell you why. I tell you that it has nothing to do with your numbers and that it's generally either about ganking/griefing existing AT ALL, or about the lack of consequences for it, or about a simple desire to either not engage in any pvp and in some cases to play a single player game. You asked the question, I answered it....

Hmm, I think on multiple occasions I've agreed with anyone/everyone that doesn't want to deal with ANY PvP in any form have every right to play that way. If you enjoy solo you enjoy solo. While I'm curious what the reason is, which as you say you've answered, I've been very clear that it really doesn't matter. If you said "I like solo because I only play on days who's spelling ends in Y" would be completely valid. Silly but valid.

Actually what I want is to play in open with a real C&P system.

Ah, finally, something we absolutely 100% t-totally agree on. While I understand the reason that large bounties aren't placed on players (as you could exploit that into a way to make big money with a friend) I've said in many other threads that the penalties here should be HUGE. If it's not going to be a financial bounty it should be an in game penalty. System Authority should come down on you like a ton of bricks, just like the cops/courts would IRL. Let's say you murder, within 5 minutes every system authority in the system would interdict you, one after the other, every 30 seconds or so. Each time the number of NPCs dropping in should double with bigger and bigger ships. First interdiction is a Python. 2nd is Python and Anaconda. 3rd is 3 Anacondas and 1 Python. Fourth adds 4 more condas, 3 FLDs and 2 Vultures. On and on. They open fire immediately. It's so bad you have no choice but to leave the system. Then if you're in any system from that superpower the above process happens over and over in each system. After a day of that I'd bet you murdering would decrease by a HUGE margin. HUGE. While it's in no way my objective to kill a player while pirating if the above rules existed I'd obviously never shoot to kill. We would need some mechanism that would allow for piracy, just opening fire wouldn't start the above chain of events, it would basically work like it does now. That way I can use hatch breakers to get your booty and only shoot to threaten you. While I could still kill you I'd absolutely think twice, hell thrice about it.

Can we agree on all that???

Twice now you've become upset at my answer and claimed mistakenly that I've accused you of all sorts of stuff..... ...after jumping up and down

I know we don't know each other so let me be clear, there is absolutely nothing, not a single thing that could be said here or in game that would make me upset. I learned long ago not to get upset by things like video games. I, like I assume you do, play video games for fun. To relax. For excitement. There's absolutely nothing in a game that's going to get me mad or upset, perhaps very slightly annoyed but not upset. The same goes for forum posts. The only thing that would get even close would be vulgarity. You've absolutely not said anything even remotely on that scale and as such trust me, I'm not mad in the slightest. I'd be shocked to hear that you're upset, you, like me feel passionately about this topic and as such we're having a good 'ole internet debate over it. I hope you're not getting upset, etc. as if you are you really should set the computer down for a while.

noone is disputing your numbers. They are quite possibly 100% accurate, but they have nothing to do with the question

Hmm, you say you're not disputing my numbers and they have nothing to do with the question yet you have disputed my numbers and are missing the fact that the numbers I posted are exactly why I started this thread. They are the absolute core reason for this thread, they couldn't possibly be more relevant to my discussion. In one of your earlier posts you said:

I didn't do much more than glance at your figures, because they're irrelevant. Your argument revolves around some questonable math to attempt to restate the whole "ganking isn't as bad as you think it is so there's no need to be scared of open" position.

Saying my numbers are irrelevant in this context sure sounds like you're disputing them or that they are irrelevant. Sure, they may be irrelevant to you but they likely aren't to many others. I understand you have no tolerance for ganking/griefing and again that's 100% cool. Just because they aren't relevant to you doesn't mean they aren't relevant to many other players.

The reason the numbers are very relevant to me, and many others, is they illustrate how little ganking/griefing there really is. There are many, and I'm not necessarily pointing a finger at you, you either directly say or give the implication that ganking/griefing is some HUGE problem that's destroying the game. My hope continues to be that people will think about their own experiences and if they are similar to mine, and from many replies it seems my experiences are common/average, that they might decide to try playing in open to see what they think. They might find that this open sandbox world isn't the hugely dangerous and awful place some make it out to be and that they enjoy seeing, chatting with and even winging up with those other players. For some when they realize ganking/griefing is such a tiny part of the overall experience they may then decide it's worth that tiny risk to play in open. They might also decide that while there are very few griefs/ganks that open just doesn't add anything for them - and again that's 100% fantastic.

You asked Why we don't play in open and "Is ganking/griefing really that bad" and supplied numbers to back up your argument that it's not. We answered that we agree that it's uncommon and that even so ANY ganking is unacceptable and is WHY we don't play in open, thus your numbers are irrelevant to the question.

Again never once did I say anything like "see here, look at my numbers, they prove that open is better" or "these number prove ganking isn't a problem at all" or anything even remotely like that. The simple reason I posted the numbers and why they are completely relevant as they are core to the question I asked. Rather than start yet another "open is better, solo is better" thread I wanted to show some factual data around playing in open. Without them this would be yet another open/solo debate, that's not what I wanted nor how or why I asked the question.

Maybe we can end with this. I'm gonna put words in your mouth so let me know if they are wrong.

Me: You enjoy playing Elite in solo and I think that's fantastic.
You: You enjoy playing Elite in open and I think that's fantastic.

Us: Elite is a fantastic game/sim/sandbox that we both enjoy in the extreme. We both care about the game and the people that play it. We both want them and each other to have as great a time as I/we do playing Elite. You have no tolerance for negative PvP interactions in any way so you play alone. I have no issues at all with negative PvP interactions in any way so I play in open. The real shame is there's no way for me to be able to play with you in your solo world and as you won't risk a negative PvP encounter you won't play in mine. You feel that you're not missing anything playing this way and I feel that you are, as am I as I can't play with you either.

Fair enough? I hope so as that's my final comments on the matter. My forehead is just too bloody and sore from all the banging...

~X

 

[DaggerSnake]

Relevant Player Killing stats in open are driven by LOCATION. Not time played.

You go to the wrong part of town, you get your-self in trouble. (since there's no consequences for anything...shhhhh)

Catch 22.

Want to meet new interesting and friendly people? Play in OPEN at a CG or Discovery Site.

Want to get killed for no reason? Play in OPEN at a CG or Discovery Site.

Decisions, decisions, play your way.

 

[BostromNZ]

It's not one or the other, whether you fly in open, solo or a private group depends on what kind of experience you want to have. When I fly in open I make sure I'm in either a cheapish PvP combat ready ship or at least something that will be able to survive an interdiction and escape. If you're grinding engineers or in your expensive trade ship ferrying goods then I don't think there's anything wrong with playing in solo until there is an incentive not to. I also fly in solo when my connection is weak or I'm getting crashes or if I'm exploring and might want to take a high res screenshot.

Arguing that you must fly in one or the other is stupid, it depends on what you're doing at the time.

 

[Zazzilas Arden]

I've played about 400 hours as well. I've been attacked by hostile players exactly three times and killed by them once. As a matter of fact, lately I've been doing things that practically ask for someone to try and kill me. Escort my newbie friend around the starter systems. Trade in a Type-9. Participate in CGs. Nothing from the "rampant griefers". Either they're actively avoiding me or 99.9% of the players I meet are decent people.

tl;dr It's not as bad as the noisy anti-open crowd on the forums makes it out to be.

Forums for MMO-type games are traditionally recognized as a place to either complain or try and sell items to other players.

...and we don't have player-to-player trading.

[up]

 

[Agony_Aunt]

A Cobra MkIV...

Hope you have some dirty drives on that. With them she's a wonderful craft, she is rigged fore-and-aft, and oh, how the wild space winds drove her. She has 8 internals and can withstand several blasts, and we called her the Irish Rover...

Erm... sorry...

 

[Sandmann]

If it helps we BOTH have sore foreheads.

Allow me to clarify...

I simply wanted to point out that the facts of my experience show me that the benefits of playing in open outweigh any negatives.

Yes, I understand. I at no point intended to imply that you were judging players for their play styles.

When I say "that's a shame" what I mean is I wish there were more people playing in open, period. Not because I want to gank, grief or pirate them. Simply because seeing other commanders deepens the immersion to me, flying around in a world with nothing but NPCs seem incredibly dull to me. Every single time I see a hollow square on my scanner, no matter what I'm doing, I get slightly excited as "look, another human, yippie!!!". It is 100% cool that you don't feel that way and instead would say "look, another human, RUN!!"

Thing is, I feel the same way. I also wish more people were playing in open, but I would say the "shame" is that fdev have ignored the screaming need for improvements that would remove/reduce the impetus for so many to move to pg/solo. As I mentioned earlier I played open exclusively all the way through beta and gamma, but opening it to retail brought in different crowd to the original backers which really exposed the game's weak points since many of them were less interested in "playing the game for the game's sake" and more so in "winning the game at any cost".

And here we go again, more putting words in my mouth. Please show me anywhere in this thread where I used any word like or that implied what I've posted is "proof". Not once have I made such a statement.

Please replace "proof" with evidence, data, or whatever term you like. When you're documenting the results of scientific research and you list the raw data and calculations it's referred to as "the proof", though I accept that is not the use you are probably familiar with as regards that term.

Ah, finally, something we absolutely 100% t-totally agree on. [Snip]

While I could still kill you I'd absolutely think twice, hell thrice about it.

Can we agree on all that???

While I'd offer some slightly different suggestions we are definitley of a very similar frame of mind here.

I know we don't know each other so let me be clear, there is absolutely nothing, not a single thing that could be said here or in game that would make me upset. [Snip] I hope you're not getting upset, etc.

Not in the slightest. A little frustrated (as I'm sure you are also) at the difficulties in communication which I put down to the difficulties of text, but otherwise enjoying a frank exchange of ideas.

Hmm, you say you're not disputing my numbers and they have nothing to do with the question yet you have disputed my numbers and are missing the fact that the numbers I posted are exactly why I started this thread. They are the absolute core reason for this thread, they couldn't possibly be more relevant to my discussion.

To the question of "is your experience re the frequency of ganking similar to mine" your figures are central, but that's not the only thing being discussed here, is it? Nor is it the question I attempted to address - in fact I am quite happy to agree with your assessment as it concurs with my (albeit limited) experience. The "other" question discussed by yourself and others was the one of "why don't you play in open since ganking is rare as shown by the following evidence". I appreciate that this perhaps wasn't your originally intended question but it IS one of the directions in which the thread has moved. Surely you'll concede that the data you've presented is ONLY relevant to that "other" question IF the respondent is avoiding open due to the frequency (real or imagined) of ganking, but that if their reason is the very existance of ganking or some other completely unrelated reason (allergy to hollow squares perhaps?) then the data has no relevance to the answer? This was my point... your data probably IS correct, but it has no relevance to my reason for avoiding open since I am not avoiding it due to frequency.

Me: You enjoy playing Elite in solo and I think that's fantastic.
You: You enjoy playing Elite in open and I think that's fantastic.

Us: Elite is a fantastic game/sim/sandbox that we both enjoy in the extreme. We both care about the game and the people that play it. We both want them and each other to have as great a time as I/we do playing Elite. You have no tolerance for negative PvP interactions in any way so you play alone. I have no issues at all with negative PvP interactions in any way so I play in open. The real shame is there's no way for me to be able to play with you in your solo world and as you won't risk a negative PvP encounter you won't play in mine. You feel that you're not missing anything playing this way and I feel that you are, as am I as I can't play with you either.

Fair enough? I hope so as that's my final comments on the matter. My forehead is just too bloody and sore from all the banging...

I'm really happy you enjoy open. I'm enjoying Mobius. If they ever put in the sort of c&p system we agree the game needs and deserves maybe I'll fly with you sometime.