Idk what you're talking about, this clip was from an organized wingfight, everyone was engineered to the teeth.
To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?
- Thread starter AMX-008 GaZowmn
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Idk what you're talking about, this clip was from an organized wingfight, everyone was engineered to the teeth.
I think it's just about mat collection, not the powercreep. You're supposed to catch up to the gitgud meta rather than enjoy a balanced gameplay.
Yes, there is no fun in being doing your thing and then all of a sudden someone appears with a ship they have engineered for 10 years and transforms you in space dust, and you have to re-do everything again or possibly lost your precious cargo and failed several missions, if I wanted to pvp then I'd just go to the arena, but yes would be nice to have people for wing missions, specially combat wing
I just have enough reallife buddies to play with me in PG)
I don't say that wing missions present any problem here. But they are not a unique feature of open-play. So they won't drag into open some cmdrs (like me). Eventually, they are just the same missions you do solo. fdev sits tight for too long now, they delivered literally nothing for open gameplay except wings which are still buggy as hell. Fleet carriers supposed to be the right thing, but we got what we got. Of course it"s not their problem. Their problem is to sell Elite like MMO somehow.
I mean exactly what I said: ships of the same tonnage shouldn't endure full speed ramming. While engineered or not, ramming on high speeds should most likely end with mutual destruction if we speak about sim, not a pure arcade. And now it looks bizzare when engineered to the teeth ships willingly ram each other just to make any decent damage. Shields are too OP at the moment, and there is no point here, but to extend PvP durations to unreasonable limits.
And ok, what kind of PvP or open play you suppose for unengineered newbies? Should they stay a chance against overpowered engineered vets or should they just go grind in solo/PG?
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That wasn't all what you said though, and the part I replied to was this one:
There were zero unengineered ships in the clip I linked in the post you quoted.
You may not like it, but this is how the game is actually working, and that is what my post was meant to demonstrate.
PvP durations are not extended to 'unreasonable limits', at least not to the extent many people seem to think. Maybe you should try it yourself before you form a strong opinion about it. The potential damage output of weapons is not low, you just need to learn how to use them. Ramming is part of the arsenal, there are situations when it's advantageous to do it and others when you need to avoid it.
BTW one of the main reasons why shields are this strong is to make it possible for average Solo dwellers to escape from 'unwanted PvP encounters' if they misclick on 'Open Play'.
You could not make them arbitrarily weak though, since the game is not (and should not be) balanced around 1v1 duels only.Newbies have the exact same opportunities to do the engineering grind as vets had when they were newbs. The grind should be made much much less time consuming though, I agree with that. How much, that's another question. Learning to fly takes time, and even if newbs spawned in fully equipped G5 FDLs in the starter system, that wouldn't give them any more chance to win (or even just survive) a 1v1 vs an experienced player.
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Lets say, it's a matter of taste: I like the way some parts of the game are actually working (PvP is not one if them), and I dislike others. You also have your likes/dislikes. Yes, ramming is a part of the arsenal, but I personally find it as odd, bizarre arcade-style feature. Because here in Elite we don't fly warhammer battle barges with battering rams) So, for example, I can't accept your point that we need large shilelds to endure more rams) Or I completly missed the point of the video provided). Obviously, english is not my native, I try to express my opinion the best way, but sometimes I struggle searching the right wording, sorry if I fail here.That wasn't all what you said though, and the part I replied to was this one:
There were zero unengineered ships in the clip I linked in the post you quoted.
You may not like it, but this is how the game is actually working, and that is what my post was meant to demonstrate.
PvP durations are not extended to 'unreasonable limits', at least not to the extent many people seem to think. Maybe you should try it yourself before you form a strong opinion about it. The potential damage output of weapons is not low, you just need to learn how to use them. Ramming is part of the arsenal, there are situations when it's advantageous to do it and others when you need to avoid it.
BTW one of the main reasons why shields are this strong is to make it possible for average Solo dwellers to escape from 'unwanted PvP encounters' if they misclick on 'Open Play'.
Newbies have the exact same opportunities to do the engineering grind as vets had when they were newbs. The grind should be made much much less time consuming though, I agree with that. How much, that's another question. Learning to fly takes time, and even if newbs spawned in fully equipped G5 FDLs in the starter system, that wouldn't give them any more chance to win (or even just survive) a 1v1 vs an experienced player.
And while ramming is an arsenal feature for engineered ships, it's an unforgiving bane for unengineered ones, that's why I mentioned them. I really don't like such a distance between eng/uneng ships, because there was no engineers in original ED, so all the ships, guns, modules were balanced without keeping engineering in mind. It wouldn't be a great issue, if engineers give you slight but pleasant increase in ship stats, but as it is now you get the whole new ship with like 2x shields, enough power to fit any gun you like and all the best staff. And when you max your girl out you just find, that there are, on probation, 2-3 PvP metas to live on, and all other fits are just deviations for those who like unusual challenges. We don't speak here specifically about 1v1 duels, the game wasn't balanced only around them before engineers too (and shields were a lot weaker then. I strongly believe that ship's possibility to sustain damage (and withstand against several opponents for example) should be balanced around its class and mostly be a matter of cmdr's skill. Yet there is a problem of gankers (althoug gankers don't recognise themselves as problem, lol), but I can barely see how engineering helps here. Maybe there should be some special shields or active armor modules which permanently block hardpoints but help you last longer under fire so non-combatants will have their chance to flee - there are plenty solutions. But as I said at the begining, I don't play open not because of the gankers, but because PvP with them seems dull, enduring and unrewarding. So I get more excitment beating targoids or doing wing-PvE missions solo: I get my portion of enduring piu-piu, but I also get some pennies for it).
The other sad story is that OP engineering works as a huge grindwall which devides newbies from the most interesting parts of the game whether PvE, PvP, AX or exploration (in a less degree). It takes much more time now to climb it than to learn how to fly. And I am sure, that it will be much more interesting for confident, but still unegineered newbies to take chances in open when they know that there are no more g5 minibosses and their unengineered newbie ship won't be the main cause of defeat in any scenario.
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All interesting points!
There is a PvP Mode, though: CQC.
It was just launched and forgotten. I have wondered if the overall PvP community just isn't interested in it and/or they stumped for further improvements but ended up being too much of a minority for FDev to listen to.
I find the latter hard to believe, but FDev is notorious for launch and forget, so...
So, with the existence of the blocking mechanic...
Is the issue that newer players (and probably a fair few veterans) simply don't know blocking exists? I mean, when I was playing I didn't use block at all until I stumbled on that in the forums two years later. In that time I'd probably encountered fifteen or so gankers, hardly anything to write home about.
I'm pro-ganking because the game allows it, but I myself don't engage in it and generally slip into solo to avoid it at high traffic systems. Block exists, but I honestly forget about it because the habit of jumping to solo is so embedded. The question, then, is this:
Should the game more proactively - as in via tutorial or some such - inform players the block mechanic exists? Because then (theoretically) more players would be in open. Not enough, I'd think, to change the perception of Open is Empty (because Elite's bubble is so gosh darn huge). But maybe improve players linking up cooperatively?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Quite some time ago, one Dev indicated that Frontier were "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP. No reasons were given for the apparent lack of player-base engagement in PvP though.
The Inara stats that Artie posted earlier in this thread seemed to indicate that relatively few players engage in PvP - which suggests that the lack of participation in PvP persists.
Interesting.
So, assuming FDev has (current) data to back lack of PvP engagement...but there seems to be a healthy dose of players in solo (or so the forums give the appearance of), why does Open Mode have such a bad rap for PvE'ers? Of course, I know my experience - it's just easier to hop to solo than bother with blocking folks - but I'd argue that is a problem.
If players prefer solo mode to avoid PvP...that means the perception of Open is directly (and possibly significantly) reducing player to player interactions cooperatively. That hurts a game striving for multiplayer benefits (business wise: marketing, squads driving retention, community content, etc.)
Put bluntly:
If Open Mode has such a reputation, wouldn't FDev be incented to address that?
Or does the data show there isn't anything to address at all?
We know forum conversations, even if overwhelmingly one-sided, account for a tiny fraction of the actual playerbase. My salt below being a prime example.
(Of course, that same data says ship interiors weren't a worthy development target anytime soon. Nor developing EDO for simultaneous platform release. Sorry...salty when it comes to FDev and their ability to interpret data.)
I think Braben was too optimistic when he designed the modes. Judging from watching him talk about it on video, I think he thought people would have fun shooting at each other, and that he didn't foresee griefers like pad campers, suicidewinders, seal clubbers, etc. It might be really hard to fix that now, but on the other hand I think they could probably deal with some of the often disliked griefing tactics..
From a solo players point of view no change is needed.
Fdev don't need to address the Open reputation and PvP folks will have to face the fact that the population will not increase as PVE folks wont go into Open whilst there is a risk of PvP.
Thus Open will remain a smaller population but at least PvP folks have their dedicated mode.
O7
There's very little in game reason to participate in PvP, and to be honest very little incentive to participate in PvE.
With a lack of activities and difficulty for it to happen organically that perhaps shouldn't be a surprise.
The Inara data seems to show that unwanted PvP is exceedingly rare so the "threat" of open seems over-inflated.
It would be interesting to see of open is still the most popular mode too.
With a lack of activities and difficulty for it to happen organically that perhaps shouldn't be a surprise.
The Inara data seems to show that unwanted PvP is exceedingly rare so the "threat" of open seems over-inflated.
It would be interesting to see of open is still the most popular mode too.
This is an old thread - wow - still a game issue I guess.
The Block function is an FDEV acknowledgement that a PVE PVP partition does not formally exist, and this rather clunky, one at a time tool is the only functional path to achieve that end.
I think personally think Block is a garbage mechanic.
In other mmos, I would engage against friends and randos in pvp and guild vs. guild within those partitioned areas and then enjoy their company in PVE content.
So what is the solution? Direct players through the forums to third party websites that maintain lists of known gankers, so you can pre-block potential threats and create your own open pve experience? Suppose those people on the "ganker" list are actually put there without cause? Have an in game tutorial that says in an immersion breaking way "If you want to have an open, social PVE experience, use the Block function to scour your game of hostile players." This is why I say Block is garbage.
Until FDEV makes PVE PVP partitioning functional, or improves C&P, Block is what we got.
I'd personally like to see high security system bans for murdering non-wanted targets.
1) First offense at murdering a non-wanted, non-hostile (by faction designation), is that you cannot return to that high security system again for one week (system is locked out like a permit only system) by the pilot's federation.
2) Second offense at murdering a non-wanted, non hostile (by faction designation), is that you cannot return to that high security system again for one month (system is locked out like a permit only system) by the pilot's federation.
3) Third offense at murdering a non-wanted, non hostile (by faction designation), is that you are perma-banned from that high security system (system is locked out like a permit only system) by the pilot's federation.
It's kind of late in the day to do this work though - the game is 7 years old, and EDO is all about FPS and ignores ships. Clearly people want to talk about it though, several threads still active on this.
The thing is many of us arnt interested in C&P, i don't care what punishment a Cmdr gets for attacking me, when im playing i don't want it to happen in the first place, hence the Solo PVE mode is for me and nowt will get me into Open as it is.
O7
Would anything?
Perhaps, I played the X-series games and I can remember the threads on Egosoft forums about making it multiplayer.
The Devs were very clear that they weren't going down that route specifically because of the issues that come up time and again here.
The first MMO that I tried was by Steve Jackson but it became dominated by organised groups with little hope for anyone to remain independent.
The experience put me off MMOs till Elite.
I think Egosoft had the right idea keeping the X-series single player.
The game is what it is, not what anyone thinks it should be. It wouldn't be better in the least if it worked the way you think you'd prefer (i.e. instadeath on rams), because this is a peer-to-peer game, desync is everywhere and 90% of rams happen only on one of the combatants' screen and it's nothing more than a close flyby from the other player's point of view. I bet you wouldn't like to face the rebuy screen randomly as soon as someone else was flying close to you (from your point of view).
Durability vs rams is one of the least significant differences between engineered and unengineered ships. Yes, engineered ships are better than unengineered ones in every possible way. They are much faster, they have way better distributors, better weapons, better shields and everything, but ramming (among many other things) is the bane of shieldless ships in general, not unengineered ships in particular. See the video: hull of a fully G5 engineered FDL gets deleted within 2 seconds after shield drop by 2 plasmarams.
A well built and fully engineered (and well flown) ship is virtually ungankable in this game, that's how.
This is actually how it's working, by and large. Big ships have the largest healthpool and they are extremely hard to destroy, small ships are generally fragile and their survival (mostly) depends on their speed and their small hitboxes, while medium ships are generally the best choice for combat. And yes, piloting skills play a very significant role.
You can't go back to unengineered stats, that ship has long since sailed. Engineered ships handle way better, wingfights are faster and more dynamic, and even average pilot skill levels became generally higher over time (people adapted and learned how to do more damage, basically).
But that wasn't what I really meant when I was talking about balancing the game around 1v1's vs wingfights.
The thing is that the average life expectancy of the first focus in a 4v4 wingfight is about 5 minutes, sometimes even less. Most 4v4 wingfights don't even last longer than 7 to 8 minutes (and it's not even really worth it to mention bigger fights like 5v5s and upwards). 7 to 8 minutes are just about right, but if you want to weaken ships significantly in order to speed up 1v1 duels, then wingfights will be way too fast (it would not be worth it to spend 5 to 15 minutes to set up an instance for the fun of a 1 minute long fight, in which the 1st focus would probably be nearly instakilled). And 1v1s aren't even particularly long as things stand now, see the other video I posted.
Yeah, this^^^ is the main problem with engineering. I totally agree with that, engineering should absolutely be much more accessible and way less time consuming.
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