To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?

[Sapient6]

Blizzard managed it over a decade ago with World of Warcraft on PvE servers, and each player can freely toggle themselves on and off for PvP as they like- granted, with timers to prevent abuse of the mechanics.

It's worth noting that the pvp flag in wow was eminently abusable.

It's what makes me think timers aren't the way to go. Straight up, switching such a flag on or off should only be possible while logged out, and there's no need to add a timer to switching the flag while logged out because they've already escaped any consequences at that point.

 

[Ettanin]

It's worth noting that the pvp flag in wow was eminently abusable.

It's what makes me think timers aren't the way to go. Straight up, switching such a flag on or off should only be possible while logged out, and there's no need to add a timer to switching the flag while logged out because they've already escaped any consequences at that point.

untrue... if flagged for PvP, your character stayed inworld for 30 seconds or until killed, whichever occurred earlier

 

[Sapient6]

untrue... if flagged for PvP, your character stayed inworld for 30 seconds or until killed, whichever occurred earlier

Sorry, I worded that poorly. The second... paragraph?... was my opinion about how such a thing should work in ED. Above it had been suggested that a timer should prevent deflagging in ED, even if one was fully logged out (ED's timer has already completed and player has successfully combat logged). I figure at that point why involve a timer? They've escaped all consequences.

That first bit about WoW was just that the flag, in its original implementation, was abusable (in both directions) and shouldn't be cited as "Blizzard Solved This Problem Over a Decade Ago". It took Blizzard around a decade to solve this problem.

 

[Sylveria]

It's worth noting that the pvp flag in wow was eminently abusable.

It's what makes me think timers aren't the way to go. Straight up, switching such a flag on or off should only be possible while logged out, and there's no need to add a timer to switching the flag while logged out because they've already escaped any consequences at that point.

I think the context is a bit more important, honestly.

If the purpose of the PVP engagement is to get someone else to cease hostilities, or prevent them from engaging in unwanted activity the other person logging out accomplishes that goal. Destroying their ship is optional, in this case. What would it matter if you destroyed their ship in a game where credits flow freely? It's only a minor setback regardless, because if a player is engaging in unwanted activity they're going to continue to do so after they purchased a new ship.

If however the point is to harass another player, it prevents them from being able to do so. Harassment is against the terms of service anyway, PVP or not.

If the timers are made long enough, it mitigates abuse. No matter what, if someone is trying to abuse the system they're going to figure out a way to do it. The point is deterrence not prevention.

 

[Sylveria]

They've escaped all consequences.

What is the purpose of consequence?

Or better yet, what's your interpretation of the purpose consequence serves?

 

[Sapient6]

What is the purpose of consequence?

Or better yet, what's your interpretation of the purpose consequence serves?

I guess I was trying to figure out why a timer to turn off PvP flag when logged out would be necessary at all. To my mind, they're trying to turn the flag off so... they want to cease all PvP?.. but they are logged out, so all pvp is defacto ceased. Even if there is a timer that keeps the pvp flag on throughout logout, once they are logged out of Open they can log into Solo and continue not being a pvp target.

So what's the point of such a timer?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Sorry, I worded that poorly. The second... paragraph?... was my opinion about how such a thing should work in ED. Above it had been suggested that a timer should prevent deflagging in ED, even if one was fully logged out (ED's timer has already completed and player has successfully combat logged). I figure at that point why involve a timer? They've escaped all consequences.

That first bit about WoW was just that the flag, in its original implementation, was abusable (in both directions) and shouldn't be cited as "Blizzard Solved This Problem Over a Decade Ago". It took Blizzard around a decade to solve this problem.

Blizzard isn't the only one developing MMOs. I played SWToR about 8 years ago and nobody cared about the flag and its countdowns

 

[Sylveria]

I guess I was trying to figure out why a timer to turn off PvP flag when logged out would be necessary at all. To my mind, they're trying to turn the flag off so... they want to cease all PvP?.. but they are logged out, so all pvp is defacto ceased. Even if there is a timer that keeps the pvp flag on throughout logout, once they are logged out of Open they can log into Solo and continue not being a pvp target.

So what's the point of such a timer?

The point of the timer is to ensure the player isn't attempting to circumvent the mechanics by toggling on and off every few seconds.

Sure you can log off and log back in... But while you're doing that you can't see what's going on in the area you logged off in. You're at a disadvantage because of situational awareness.

 

[Sapient6]

The point of the timer is to ensure the player isn't attempting to circumvent the mechanics by toggling on and off every few seconds.

Sure you can log off and log back in... But while you're doing that you can't see what's going on in the area you logged off in. You're at a disadvantage because of situational awareness.

I understand the general application of the timer, just not the reason for there being a timer while logged out. It seems to me that logging out ought to always be enough all on its own. But if it were up to me, there wouldn't be a timer at all, just a requirement that you log out to flip it. Maybe even restrict it to while docked, as "go back to Safe Zone in order to turn on\off pvp" is a common thread in the better pvp flag systems I've dealth with... The problem with that, of course, is those games often have a "teleport" you can use to get to a location where you can change your flag. So such a limitation might be a terrible fit for ED.

 

[Sylveria]

I understand the general application of the timer, just not the reason for there being a timer while logged out. It seems to me that logging out ought to always be enough all on its own. But if it were up to me, there wouldn't be a timer at all, just a requirement that you log out to flip it. Maybe even restrict it to while docked, as "go back to Safe Zone in order to turn on\off pvp" is a common thread in the better pvp flag systems I've dealth with... The problem with that, of course, is those games often have a "teleport" you can use to get to a location where you can change your flag. So such a limitation might be a terrible fit for ED.

The purpose for the timer when you're logged out is so that you don't manipulate the system preventing you from engaging in PvP.

Without a timer you could simply just log back in without a PVP flag, even though you were purposely engaging in PvP activities before you logged out.

Not that difficult to understand.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The purpose for the timer when you're logged out is so that you don't manipulate the system preventing you from engaging in PvP.

Without a timer you could simply just log back in without a PVP flag, even though you were purposely engaging in PvP activities before you logged out.

Which, given that the player can log back in in any game mode, renders any timer moot.

 

[Sapient6]

The purpose for the timer when you're logged out is so that you don't manipulate the system preventing you from engaging in PvP.

Without a timer you could simply just log back in without a PVP flag, even though you were purposely engaging in PvP activities before you logged out.

Not that difficult to understand.

With a timer I could simply just log back into solo or group with my PVP flag. Not that difficult to get around.

Edit: SNIPED!
/pvpon

 

[WildElf]

Do you think that Open Play would be negatively affected if PVP could be disabled?

Do you think Elite could benefit from having more people try to play & cooperate with others in Open Play?

No, it would be an overall improvement. I played Asheron's Call which had this method (sort of, it required an in-game ritual to enable PvP) and it was cool and still a little scary to see a red dot PvP player on your radar, even if you were technically safe. It also reminded you that it existed, PvPers were able to brag just from their existence

But PvP isn't the main reason I don't play Solo habitually. I've never been ganked, and would only pop into Solo in risky systems if I had stuff I didn't want to lose (usually exploration data). But then I kept hitting traffic problems from other players.

The thing that would get me to play in open: changing parking behavior so that entering the hanger is required (and possibly automatic) to avoid loitering punishment, changing hanger behavior so that you can still use the pad if another player is parked in the hangar (it should be easy to hand wave infinite hangar space, especially if you remove ships from the radar), and making autodock smart enough not to have parking cops kill you just because an exit queue lasted longer than 5 minutes.

The worst thing about Open isn't PvP, it's the other innocent players at stations also wrestling with FDevs abysmal design for traffic control.

 

[Misty_Dark]

PvP toggle "off" should prevent collisions between player ships, period. The only collision that should happen is between players and NPCs.

And for PvE players the "immersion" lost by flying through player ships wouldn't be a loss at all, but a gain.

There should also be a cooldown for toggling such a flag to prevent abuse of mechanics as well- which would mean someone engaging in PvP activities would not be able to toggle themselves at will between targets to prevent retribution from those targets. Cooldown should apply even if you log off (purposely or by "accident") and resume when you log back on until the timer has expired.

Adding a PvP flag isn't as difficult as some make it out to be, and it's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp. Blizzard managed it over a decade ago with World of Warcraft on PvE servers, and each player can freely toggle themselves on and off for PvP as they like- granted, with timers to prevent abuse of the mechanics.

if is quite clear that we have different views about how terrible flying through ships would be. and you totally fail to understand how this could very annoying if another decided to fly their ship covering your cockpit.

And about that switching PvP flag, why bother with timers, simply make it so that you can only switch when you are docked... but then again, PvP flag system is by design a pretty terrible option in a game like Elite.

 

[Misty_Dark]

What does your collision have to do with other PvP players? You want no PvP when not flagged so why would you ram other players?

Usually the flagging is set around a cooldown period, yes.

I do not want to ram other players, but I do not want other players flying through me either, becuase I can see how griefers would abuse this mechanics. and having a mix of ships that you can and cannot fly thorugh is pretty terrible setup, so if we going to make all other players transparent, why even bother to show them in the first place?

 

[Sylveria]

I do not want to ram other players, but I do not want other players flying through me either, becuase I can see how griefers would abuse this mechanics.

Griefers will abuse mechanics, sure. At least this separates "griefers" from those who wish to PvP, instead of the PvP community hiding behind griefers because there's no true separation between the two.

Then again... maybe that's what some wish to preserve by preventing a distinguished separation after all.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I do not want to ram other players, but I do not want other players flying through me either, becuase I can see how griefers would abuse this mechanics. and having a mix of ships that you can and cannot fly thorugh is pretty terrible setup, so if we going to make all other players transparent, why even bother to show them in the first place?

They'd be only transparent when you fly through them. A fringe case when not doing PvP.

 

[VeryLittleGravitas]

Why not tie it to instancing? If you have the PvE flag activated, you only get instanced with those who also have it activated. Killing or even just shooting another CMDR would result in revocation of the PvE flag in incrementing periods, up to and including a permanent revocation of the PvE flag. So griefers would have only a limited number of opportunities to abuse it before they permanently lose the ability to enable the PvE flag and instance with others with that flag.
Yes, there is still a problem with ramming and suicidewinders, but that can be solved too. Ram too many CMDRS --> timed revocation of a PvE flag. Kill them by ramming --> much longer, if not permanent revocation. Suicidewinders? The game logs everything, so someone who dies too many times by being rammed while in a cheap shieldless ship would also be stripped of the PvE flag.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Why not tie it to instancing? If you have the PvE flag activated, you only get instanced with those who also have it activated. Killing or even just shooting another CMDR would result in revocation of the PvE flag in incrementing periods, up to and including a permanent revocation of the PvE flag. So griefers would have only a limited number of opportunities to abuse it before they permanently lose the ability to enable the PvE flag and instance with others with that flag.
Yes, there is still a problem with ramming and suicidewinders, but that can be solved too. Ram too many CMDRS --> timed revocation of a PvE flag. Kill them by ramming --> much longer, if not permanent revocation. Suicidewinders? The game logs everything, so someone who dies too many times by being rammed while in a cheap shieldless ship would also be stripped of the PvE flag.

I have never heard of a PvE flag. Why would one design it like that when the minority of cases is PvP and the exception.

 

[galahad2069]

Wow, this thread was utterly cringe from the get go, but apparently it managed to evolve into a savage parody of itself lately.