Trading for Influence II (FC Update)

Thank you goemon.
I can continue happily making multiple runs from my FC without having to move it to another system and thus increase turn around time.
 
And another thing :)
You present two graphs, cr/t vs g and t vs g.
Are these cumulative?
That is to say:
Sell approx 1x240t of 1100 cr/t = 1.5 (t vs g) + 2 (cr/t vs g) = 3.5 g
(Numbers chosen because of where the graph intersects values for g)

Or does one table supersede the other in the order of the higher (or lower) result only count?
Using the same numbers from above:
1100 cr/t = 2 g and 240t = 1.5 g therefore actual g = 2 or 1.5

I am reading this back and wondering if I am making any sense???
 
And another thing :)
You present two graphs, cr/t vs g and t vs g.
Are these cumulative?
That is to say:
Sell approx 1x240t of 1100 cr/t = 1.5 (t vs g) + 2 (cr/t vs g) = 3.5 g
(Numbers chosen because of where the graph intersects values for g)

Or does one table supersede the other in the order of the higher (or lower) result only count?
Using the same numbers from above:
1100 cr/t = 2 g and 240t = 1.5 g therefore actual g = 2 or 1.5

I am reading this back and wondering if I am making any sense???
neither. tonnage and credit curve apply independently.
there is no formula from my side to calculate g of any given combination of tonnage and profit.
there are pointers for guesstimate, though:
if 2000 credit per ton profit (cptp) is 100%, than:
50 cptp: ~5%
150 cptp: ~33%
400 cptp: ~60%
750 cptp: ~80%
1000 cptp: ~90%
1500 cptp: ~98%

so, a 400 cptp trade of 150t should get you 60% of a 2000 cptp trade of 150t.

in practice it will be a rare case not to get at least 75-90% of the max gain by profit.
 
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similar could be done for tonnage. if 150t is 100%, than:

below 50t: hit an miss, see first post, fig. 8
50t: ~40%
75t: ~50%
100t: ~60%

after ~150t you get ~70% for the next 150 t. so
150t = 100%
300t = ~170%
450t = ~240%
600t = ~310%
750t = ~480%
 
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Hi Goemon,

Another question has occurred to me. In your studies that produced your graph "tons of cargo v g" did you trade at, or close, to zero profit/loss when examining the effect of tonnage?
I am thinking in relation to trading out faction states like Famine for a faction that does not control the market and at the same time trying to minimize +/-g for the allied player faction that does control the market.

If tonnage with zero profit still causes +/-g then the ideal trade would be full loads not lots of 150t and to sell at a loss.
 
Hi Goemon,

Another question has occurred to me. In your studies that produced your graph "tons of cargo v g" did you trade at, or close, to zero profit/loss when examining the effect of tonnage?
I am thinking in relation to trading out faction states like Famine for a faction that does not control the market and at the same time trying to minimize +/-g for the allied player faction that does control the market.

If tonnage with zero profit still causes +/-g then the ideal trade would be full loads not lots of 150t and to sell at a loss.
1. i don't think trading at a market not controlled by that faction can help ending famine. a) famine is an economic state, and any economy slider effect of bulk trading is bound to market controlling faction b) i think similar applies to the non-slider stated.

i also think nobody is sure how that trade x to counter state z is actually implemented (and it is hard to test as we can't see something like state buckets).

2. the lowest profit per ton we have tested is 50 credit per ton profit.
 
as of odyssey update 10, this thread is outdated. see https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/update-10-odyssey-and-horizons.597956/#post-9713547

"Faction consequences from selling commodities are now based on satisfying available demand at the Commodity Market

You can now support a faction by buying commodities from it, based upon satisfying available supply at its Commodity Market

When buying and selling, it's generally more positive to a faction to satisfy a higher supply and demand (green 3-bar icon) than a lower (red 1-bar icon), and it's generally more positive to trade more expensive commodities than cheaper ones"
 
as of odyssey update 10, this thread is outdated. see https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/update-10-odyssey-and-horizons.597956/#post-9713547

"Faction consequences from selling commodities are now based on satisfying available demand at the Commodity Market

You can now support a faction by buying commodities from it, based upon satisfying available supply at its Commodity Market

When buying and selling, it's generally more positive to a faction to satisfy a higher supply and demand (green 3-bar icon) than a lower (red 1-bar icon), and it's generally more positive to trade more expensive commodities than cheaper ones"
i haven't read the entire thread, but this seems to be an Odyssey only change. is that the case?
 
current thought, in case somebody feels inclined to run tests:


discussing the patchnotes in some chat and thinking about it...my gut feeling, which is wrong often, says this might be the case:

pre update:
influence effect of export: none

after update, per single commodity:
(galactic average - purchase price) x ("profit" per ton-sigmaoid-value) x (tonnage-sigmaoid-value) x supply-modiier

or, more readable:
(GA - P) x (T) x (L)

with GA= Galactic Average, P=Purchase Price
(GA - P) giving a non linear value on the "profit sigmaoid"
(T) a value on the tonnage sigmaoid,
(L) being a demand-and-supply modifier (which might be 2,5 at max)

influence effect of import per single commodity:
pre update:
(profit per ton-sigmaoid-value) x (tonnage-sigmaoid-value)

after update:
(P - GA) x (T) x (L)
with GA= Galactic Average, P=SELL Price
(P - GA) giving a non linear value on the "profit sigmaoid"
(T) a value on the tonnage sigmaoid,
(L) being a demand-and-supply modifier (which might be 2,5 at max)


beside the beauty treating import and export similar...
a) this would get rid of gaming the system with setting inlated proits via FC
b) matching all what is said in patch notes. as supply, demand and states effect the base price, high priced commodities will have more effect.

at least that would be what i would test if i were to test it (which i'm not in the next months)
a test could look like this:

step 1: checking the profit/sell-pricesigmaoid

  • take a no traffic system
  • sell 150t+ of a commodity with high galactic average, some profit, some demand

next tick (or other no traffic system):

- sell same tonnage with lower galactic average, same profit, same demand bracket
= compare effect. if galactic average has an effect, there should be a difference

step2: checking the demand effect

- sell 150+t of a commodity with some profit or delta between galactic average and sell-price (depending on step 1) and high demand bracket

next tick (or other no traffic system):

- sell 150+t of a commodity with same profit or delta between galactic average and sell-price (depending on step 1) and regular demand bracket

next tick (or other no traffic system):

- sell 150+t of a commodity with same profit or delta between galactic average and sell-price (depending on step 1) and low demand bracket

=compare effects. this should allow you to gauge demand effect.

step 3 +4: repeat steps 1 and 2 for exporting commodities by taking purchase price instead of sell price.
 
So something not clear to me from the patch notes is this bit:
Faction consequences from selling commodities are now based on satisfying available demand at the Commodity Market

You can now support a faction by buying commodities from it, based upon satisfying available supply at its Commodity Market

I'm going to assume the second sentence has copy-pasta mistakes but it talks about "Satisfying available supply"... it almost sounds like you need to fill demand before buying from supply. I'm certain that's not what it means... but @goemon , it wasn't clear to me how the system prevents just "dumping cargo" for smashing buy-influence gains... can you elaborate a bit more (and perhaps a bit dumbed down XD)

Questions I still have outstanding based on patch notes and such.
  • Does the same rules apply to Black Market deals
  • How does, if at all, selling for a loss or to non-demand items work? e.g how would selling mined gold to a high-supply gold extraction market work vs selling to low supply gold?
EDIT: Oh, and, what's more important now? Selling to demand or selling for profit? It might be in your posts above, but tbh, my coffee isn't waking my brain up. Just contextualised because I did a run of gold/silver/cobalt for 5-10k/t profit, but all were "no" demand... e.g
1643248602797.png


Would I be better selling Gold or Indium, for inf/Eco?
 
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it wasn't clear to me how the system prevents just "dumping cargo" for smashing buy-influence gains
The foolproof way to do it would be to have the influence gain for supply only be realised when the cargo is sold, but that might be more tracking of individual barrels than they'd like.

Another thing which occurs to me...
Patch Notes said:
it's generally more positive to a faction to satisfy a higher supply and demand (green 3-bar icon) than a lower (red 1-bar icon)
...we don't actually have a good model for what causes supply and demand to have the green or red icons.

Maybe I should research that next since I've got decent baseline data for it.
 
...we don't actually have a good model for what causes supply and demand to have the green or red icons.

Maybe I should research that next since I've got decent baseline data for it.
Although i don't know exact figures, i thought it was just some arbitrary %high/ low watermark of the standard maximum for that commodity.

Eg an item with max 100k supply would be green til, say, 80k, and go red at 20k... while a 1k supply item does the same at 800 and 200.

... or something mechanically like that
 
The foolproof way to do it would be to have the influence gain for supply only be realised when the cargo is sold, but that might be more tracking of individual barrels than they'd like.
i actually thought that they implemented it similar to one of the fixes to the 1t trading exploit, where they implemented that trade actions are summed per instance (docking/?) per player.
but i got word from a player i trust who went ahead testing the basic mechanic, and buying and than aterwards discarding cargo in and out of station instance created no influence effect. if that holds true (he is on horizon, so next test will be whether buying commodities has any effect in horizon), they might have implemented it similar to the changes which allowedonly counting mined commodities at mining cgs.
 
Would I be better selling Gold or Indium, for inf/Eco?
to answer that question one would need to test the new "profit" sigma and the modiier for supply. but looking at the old profit curve: - 900 cr per ton creates ~75% of >2000 cptp. the question is whether you believe if the demand modiier between normal (no colour) and high (green) is +33%/1,33 ... i don't think that's unlikely. but it might be 1,25 as well ...
 
Although i don't know exact figures, i thought it was just some arbitrary %high/ low watermark of the standard maximum for that commodity.

Eg an item with max 100k supply would be green til, say, 80k, and go red at 20k... while a 1k supply item does the same at 800 and 200.

... or something mechanically like that
I agree it's probably something like that, but what "standard maximum" means in this context is less clear - I've seen commodities at their local supply/demand cap fail to get Green, for example.
 
I agree it's probably something like that, but what "standard maximum" means in this context is less clear - I've seen commodities at their local supply/demand cap fail to get Green, for example.
And indeed, at this current station, pretty much every supply commodity is both at its cap and Red. Demand is more varied - mostly Green, except for core gems which are Red (and well below cap, of course)

It looks like it's taken relative to the supply/demand cap in None state which was the bit I wasn't getting before. Station is in Investment+Expansion, both of which generally boost demand and cut supply, so the supply being Red and the demand being (mostly) Green makes sense.

With most goods except a very few spending most of their time at the cap, this means that the Green/Red condition is broadly going to be based on the active states.
 
And indeed, at this current station, pretty much every supply commodity is both at its cap and Red. Demand is more varied - mostly Green, except for core gems which are Red (and well below cap, of course)

It looks like it's taken relative to the supply/demand cap in None state which was the bit I wasn't getting before. Station is in Investment+Expansion, both of which generally boost demand and cut supply, so the supply being Red and the demand being (mostly) Green makes sense.

With most goods except a very few spending most of their time at the cap, this means that the Green/Red condition is broadly going to be based on the active states.
This is the exact behavior I observed since long prior to the latest update. Red/Green markers are based on the current supply/demand vs the "normal" value in a "none" state/with no BGS states active.
 
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