Travel Needs to be Fun and Engaging

[Sterling MH]

1. Download chess app
2. Start game with random friend
3. Make your move
4. Put away phone until he finishes his move
5. Look at game app again
6. Rinse, repeat.

One of these does not involve interacting with the game.

But that's circular:
It's not gameplay because it's not interacting!
Chess.
But if you don't interact, that's not gameplay!

Play By Mail chess has huge gaps of not playing, but the huge wait IS part of the gameplay, in exactly the same way as the short wait is part of the gameplay of speedchess, or the "equal time for each player" of that version of chess (doubly so in that case, since you can play on pressure when you're ahead to force bad moves at the risk of not thinking through fully yourself).

The waiting is part of the gameplay. The "Not interacting" is the part of the gameplay where you're not interacting. It hives a cost of gameplay you may decide NOT TO PAY. And how do you not pay it? Engineer FSD, cut fuel load, cut shields and drive, D class kit, no guns, partial cargo load, smaller ship, even. Stay within the bubble. Only go one jump at a time and FIND something to do there. Even if it's just a selfie.

You can decide so many ways not to pay the cost of "not interacting" that you CHOOSE to play the not interacting to get at the gameplay hidden behind it.

Heck, listen to Dara on computer games: it's the only entertainment that refuses to let you have what you paid for. You have to get "This good" to see the next bit. No, you can't just view the cutscenes. No, you can't enable godmode. No, you have to play legit and beat X, Y and Z before we show you A.

The "paywalling" of content is what you're complaining about, but paywalling is how PC games roll. How many games roll (you can't buy Mayfair until you land on it. No you can't buy a hotel until you've bought a house.).

But what content is hidden by this wall of "non interaction"?

And given that there are going to be loading screens of shifting from one instance to another (heck, just waiting for the game to load to get to the starting screen you're not interacting), there will always be "non gameplay". So your complaint can never be assuaged.

Therefore why should anyone, especially devs, bother?

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So I say its not gameplay someone else says it is gameplay

Yes. That's what happens when you make assertions of opinion. And gameplay is nothing BUT opinion. See those liking the time taken, to them it's a zen meditation thing.

Jumping is boring

See, opinion. This one is easy to avoid. Don't jump at all. Stay in system.

Solved.

 

[Enderby]

But that's circular:
It's not gameplay because it's not interacting!
Chess.
But if you don't interact, that's not gameplay!

Play By Mail chess has huge gaps of not playing, but the huge wait IS part of the gameplay, in exactly the same way as the short wait is part of the gameplay of speedchess, or the "equal time for each player" of that version of chess (doubly so in that case, since you can play on pressure when you're ahead to force bad moves at the risk of not thinking through fully yourself).

The waiting is part of the gameplay. The "Not interacting" is the part of the gameplay where you're not interacting. It hives a cost of gameplay you may decide NOT TO PAY. And how do you not pay it? Engineer FSD, cut fuel load, cut shields and drive, D class kit, no guns, partial cargo load, smaller ship, even. Stay within the bubble. Only go one jump at a time and FIND something to do there. Even if it's just a selfie.

You can decide so many ways not to pay the cost of "not interacting" that you CHOOSE to play the not interacting to get at the gameplay hidden behind it.

Heck, listen to Dara on computer games: it's the only entertainment that refuses to let you have what you paid for. You have to get "This good" to see the next bit. No, you can't just view the cutscenes. No, you can't enable godmode. No, you have to play legit and beat X, Y and Z before we show you A.

The "paywalling" of content is what you're complaining about, but paywalling is how PC games roll. How many games roll (you can't buy Mayfair until you land on it. No you can't buy a hotel until you've bought a house.).

But what content is hidden by this wall of "non interaction"?

And given that there are going to be loading screens of shifting from one instance to another (heck, just waiting for the game to load to get to the starting screen you're not interacting), there will always be "non gameplay". So your complaint can never be assuaged.

Therefore why should anyone, especially devs, bother?

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Yes. That's what happens when you make assertions of opinion. And gameplay is nothing BUT opinion. See those liking the time taken, to them it's a zen meditation thing.



See, opinion. This one is easy to avoid. Don't jump at all. Stay in system.

Solved.

Huh? Nah.

 

[Sterling MH]

Thinking about your next move isn't waiting.

It is. You can't think about your response to his move until AFTER he's made it.

And, note, the "definition" that was shouted at me was "Non interaction" is not gameplay. You're not interacting with the game when you're thinking of your move.

Thinking and not interaction is gameplay? Yup. But that's you agreeing with me that the original poster was wrong in his assertion.

For "something to do" in a jump screen would be think on what you've arranged to do, yes? Reconsider whether you want to reroute via some interesting object rather than just star skimming and hitting Jump, which would be less interaction than going through the galaxy map and seeing if the plotted route was near something interesting. To that end, a way to drag to some point of interest or waypoint rather than just let the computer work out fastest or most economical route would be nice. Especially if you had or wanted to avoid Anarchy systems. Drag one point out of the anarchy post and it recalculates the new faster route via the new dragged point.

The lack of doing stuff between system jumps is by people who don't want to find out how to play the game, but who want to play the game their way and insist that the game is changed to suit.

A little arrogant.

 

[ries]

wow 11 pages, seriously.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Economy routes are usually around 5ly per jump, they ARE short jump ranges and that is what Im talking about.

If all the timers and loading screen would be able to be reduced so there is less wait time for a jump and faster jump sequence people might actually choose economy route.

But having 80 jumps between the Bubble and Maia on an economy route means 30 minutes where you do NOTHING but wait.

Which means that there is a fair chance a complete aspect of hyperspace jumps (economy route) will not be used simply because of TIME.

When you spend 6 out of 8 hours to colonia waiting for a TIMER to tick just to arrive at the next system then something is wrong - And that is a FAST route to Colonia.

Then don't use the economy route finder option, why are you even saying this, it is meaningless.

It's there for if you don't have a fuel scoop or you are running low on fuel without a scoopable star nearby, so it has it's uses.

If there where deeper exploration mechanics I would use economy mode far more when exploring, but we don't. Reducing the jump times wont have poeple think about using economy, they will still use the fastest route planner still, it will just be quicker.

If you want to get to Colonia without stopping for some exploration, then why the hell are you using the economy mode. There is no logic in it.

And I will say it again, if you do not like the long distance travel DO NOT DO IT.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

It is. You can't think about your response to his move until AFTER he's made it.

Only if you're not thinking ahead. Good chess players think three, four or move moves ahead of their opponents.

 

[Sterling MH]

Economy routes are usually around 5ly per jump, they ARE short jump ranges and that is what Im talking about.

Then chose Fastest.

But with autopilot, those small jumps are meaningless. YOU aren't fiddling every 2 minutes, you're sitting watching a movie for 3 hours. With fastest, either it has to refuel (and fight, and trade, and why bother playing) or you have to pop by 10x as often and refuel.

5LY is an option. Pick 15, a figure every ship should be able to get to with some tuning, even on a full load. No need to pick economy.

But autopilot would make it meaningless to have economy planning. Hence it won't happen.

Want 70ly jumps? Ask to remove the limit fuel per jump. Explorers would want to fiddle the maximum jump to extend range to new territory unless they like fuelscooping. And early players would want to do that too, to make it cheaper but quicker than "most economical"

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Only if you're not thinking ahead. Good chess players think three, four or move moves ahead of their opponents.

No, you'd have to be thinking about THEIR move. And there's no need unless it's timed or speed chess to do the pre-thinking. Most of that would have been done BEFORE your last move, anyway. And that's STILL "non interaction". Think about what ship you want to buy next, where you can buy the FSD you want, whether the engineers can beef up the bits you like early enough. There's none of that on your galaxy map or ship manifest, so the lack there isn't an issue.

Besides, grandmaster chess players aren't the only ones allowed to play chess. Even five year olds can play.

 

[PyrateLV]

Then don't use the economy route finder option, why are you even saying this, it is meaningless.

It's there for if you don't have a fuel scoop or you are running low on fuel without a scoopable star nearby, so it has it's uses.

If there where deeper exploration mechanics I would use economy mode far more when exploring, but we don't. Reducing the jump times wont have poeple think about using economy, they will still use the fastest route planner still, it will just be quicker.

If you want to get to Colonia without stopping for some exploration, then why the hell are you using the economy mode. There is no logic in it.

And I will say it again, if you do not like the long distance travel DO NOT DO IT.

Maybe they could add a Exploration or Sight-Seer route selection in addition to Economy and Fastest
It could plan routes a little more out of the way (sight-seer) or just Random (explore)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Only if you're not thinking ahead. Good chess players think three, four or move moves ahead of their opponents.

Some players (and i mean grand masters here) can be 15 to 20 moves ahead if needed. During the Jump screen and supercruise I am generally thinking about stuff, mostly in game stuff as well, so with that I suppose it can be called gameplay.

I suppose others must look at the screen like a vegetable and not think, and that wouldn't be gameplay.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

No, you'd have to be thinking about THEIR move. And there's no need unless it's timed or speed chess to do the pre-thinking. Most of that would have been done BEFORE your last move, anyway. And that's STILL "non interaction". Think about what ship you want to buy next, where you can buy the FSD you want, whether the engineers can beef up the bits you like early enough. There's none of that on your galaxy map or ship manifest, so the lack there isn't an issue.

Besides, grandmaster chess players aren't the only ones allowed to play chess. Even five year olds can play.

For me, thinking about my next move is definitely part of the interaction of chess.

I just use 3rd party sites for that information, though it would be nice if I could do it from the galaxy map (maybe even click on the star, select "jump here" and let the game point me in the right direction and activate my hyperspace jump).

 

[HBK]

It is. You can't think about your response to his move until AFTER he's made it.

I dunno if you ever played chess or any other turn based game but I still think about my next moves even while I wait for the opponent to act.

You rarely act thinking "I thought of all the possible outcomes and will wait a minute now".

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Some players (and i mean grand masters here) can be 15 to 20 moves ahead if needed. During the Jump screen and supercruise I am generally thinking about stuff, mostly in game stuff as well, so with that I suppose it can be called gameplay.

I suppose others must look at the screen like a vegetable and not think, and that wouldn't be gameplay.

Indeed.
During trading I frequently used my jumps as a time for my planning. Once that countdown starts, I'd throttle back and alt-tab out to gather trading information from sites like eddb.io, I'd update my trading spreadsheet, or write a couple of notes down.

 

[xondk]

The countdown absolutely DOES count as non-game play. It's pure wait time, if you actually want to jump. You cannot unalign.

The fact remains: 70℅ or so if getting from system to system us WSITING, NOT playing. And even Supercruise isn't terribly engaging.

I'm the one who wants to Play the game. Loading screens and countdown timers aren't game play.

What you are asking for is simply not possible, loading needs to happen 'somewhere' it is part of games, but lets imagine it isn't loading.

Could you maybe give an example of what would actually happen during the time it takes to travel to another system, if we say it takes a fixed amount of time per distance, so if you jump 10ly it would take say 10 seconds, and if 60, 60 seconds, what would you be 'doing', what gameplay would actually happen.

Lets try to set up a scenario?
You are at Sol, and you want to go to a combat zone located in a system 200 ly away.

Explain what you'd see as "actual game play" while getting to that location?

Like that moded version of Independance War 2, where you could navigate the bubble space tunnel.
That was really nice. OTOH, even this would become tedious after doing it 1K time.

But, back to the gameplay issues :

1) waiting != playing. What we have is a fancy loading screen. Fancy visuals, awesome sound but still a loading screen.
1b) long distance travel != exploring. Some people do it that way (scan every system), but other don't.
2) long distance travel is tedious, sure you can "explore" (really : point and wait gameplay).
3) I do think that an auto-pilot able to scoop / align / jump / repeat would improve the overall thing. I mean, one could use that time
to search for interesting exploration targets on the galmap, like BH, neutron stars, O class systems, Planetary nebulas and so on, instead of
repeating the scoop / align / jump / repeat 100x routine.

Fundamentaly the problem lies in the very low level of involvement / skill required for navigation and exploration.
Literaly, these two gameplay loops are respectively scoop / align / press button / wait / repeat for navigation and align / wait or honk for exploration.

Where are the complications, dangers and anomalies in deep space ?

1) lets say it isn't loading time, but instead it would actually be a function of distance and speed of fsd, so if you make a 5ly jump would take significantly shorter then a say 60ly jump, would that be better? what would you be doing while 'jumping' ?
1b) Exploring starts out with going to a place that others haven't been, and then exploring what is there, travelling to said place to explore is part of it.
2) any repeated behaviour, travelling in any game ever is not the most exciting thing ever, but it is part of the thing that makes the game world feel bigger.
3) I'm confused, didn't we just establish waiting is boring, but an auto pilot that would make you wait MORE is what you want added? click wait, arrive?

As for the fundamental problem, well same could be said about driving a car on an empty road or open space, yet people still enjoy that? people that drive with automatic gear? exploring happens at a location, you need to get to a location, the more remote a location is can increase the feeling of exploration, being where no one else has been rather then just around the corner.

But again, how would you have it act differently? explain how you would imagine game play rich exploration happen. Using same scenario as above, but instead a random deep space location then a CZ location.

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Indeed.
During trading I frequently used my jumps as a time for my planning. Once that countdown starts, I'd throttle back and alt-tab out to gather trading information from sites like eddb.io, I'd update my trading spreadsheet, or write a couple of notes down.

So you are saying that the extra time allows you to easier keep track of other things rather then those things would pull away from actual game play?
Wouldn't it be frustrating if those things took away from your game time?

 

[Blackcompany]

Eye Spy? (sorry I couldn't help myself lol)

Personally, I like that these things take time, it is one of the things that make the game feel unique. Your tedium is my enjoyment it seems. Game like ED should not cater for all player types .. it will become generic as with 99% of the games on the market these days.

Loading screens do not take that much time (always room for improvement tho), and probably only count for less that 5% of actual time realistically. You must be exaggerating right, else I would contact support as there may be something wrong on your connection? I am connecting from Australia too and other than the occasional lag out where the load screen make take 30secs between systems, it is normally quick-ish.

Could there be other 'things' going on when travelling? Sure, more content would be cool outside of the mandatory interdiction each system or dropping into a USS, but should remain flexible/optional not to turn back into the chain-interdiction issues we had last year.

I'm an explorer, I've seen a reasonable amount of the galaxy, much more than some, much less than others.
Yeah the time spent in witchspace can get tedious at times, and it would be nice to have a little variety every now and again, but here's the rub.... I also really like the lack of demand that long distance travel requires.
A couple of thousand light years for me is a chance to watch a streamer, chat with friends or catch up with a series I like on Netflix. It's "me" time where I can sit and think undisturbed, unless I want to be and where the only timeframe I need to worry about is my own.
Be careful what you wish for, they say, and in this case most definitely. Exploration and long distance travel is the one place in the game where you can unwind and take your time, and however you spice it up, you need to do it in a way that doesn't decimate a gameplay style that many of us, at times, prefer to be as bland and unspicey as possible.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to want to change it. Like I said, I've had times where the number of jumps to get to someplace interesting has seemed pretty daunting...I could have done with some means of either getting back automatically, or getting somewhere more interesting more quickly. But that's only every now and again, and the rest of the time I just want to drift on between the stars without worrying when the next npc or random encounter is going to bring that peace to and abrupt, firey end.

"Buys spaceship flight simulator, but hates flying the spaceship."

The only one if your recommendations I agree with is Frontier doing a better job at predictive matchmaking. If I've targeted a system, get the instancing ball rolling already. Don't wait until after I arrive to do the server work.

As for your Supercruise recommendations, Infind it to be the best part if the game. The first iteration in premium beta was a joy to fly with. You had to be engaged if you wanted to fly anywhere quickly. The initial escape, actively plotting a course away from mass shadows, and your final planetary braking maneuver were a lot if fun.

The current iteration isn't nearly as much fun. The escape is easy, and there's little need to plot a good course. Only the final braking maneuver is good, since the braking keyhole is so narrow, and the speeds so quick, you have to get clever to bleed off enough speed to thread the needle.

Hates Flying?

Please ACTUALLY Read my post.

I love FLYING the ships. I do not like loading screens and arbitrary WAIT WALLS. Neither of which has anything to do with flying.

Again, please READ.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Hates Flying?

Please ACTUALLY Read my post.

I love FLYING the ships. I do not like loading screens and arbitrary WAIT WALLS. Neither of which has anything to do with flying.

Again, please READ.

If nothing loaded, there wouldn't be a game, so loading screens are necessary. What are the arbitary WAIT WALLS.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

If nothing loaded, there wouldn't be a game, so loading screens are necessary. What are the arbitary WAIT WALLS.

That 4 second count down before jumping.

I'm not joking.

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Hates Flying?

Please ACTUALLY Read my post.

I love FLYING the ships. I do not like loading screens and arbitrary WAIT WALLS. Neither of which has anything to do with flying.

Again, please READ.

You need to understand the context of Elite dangerous. You get to fly the ships, but you have to accept that Frontier are going for semi-realism, and yes, that means very long trips around space. It's the way Elite has been for decades, it's how ED was made.

Honestly, if you want faster travel times, I strongly suggest Star Citizen ( though you'll have to wait a while until it's release ) because that sounds more like that you're looking for.

Edit: I don't mean that as a "go play something else" response, but it sounds like you're in a Street Fighter forum asking for features to be more like Mortal Kombat.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That 4 second count down before jumping.

I'm not joking.

4 seconds, is that what all the fuss is about. What a joke.

 

[bootsam]

14 pages....

....are we there yet?

 

[S3B4ST13N]

4 seconds, is that what all the fuss is about. What a joke.

That, and things like it taking too long to get from one side of the galaxy t'other. Uhm, how loading screens are bad (despite being in every. single. game. ever.) Stuff like that.

 

[Blackcompany]

OK. Let me see if I can get this, back on track.

I'm not asking for FDev to drastically reduce the size of the galaxy. Do I think jump range should increase? Absolutely. Could I live without the increase? Sure.

What I DO have a serious issue with - and the internet indicates I am not alone here - is the amount of wasted time while traveling in Elite.

Hyperspace jumping is, as established, somewhere around 73℅ waiting, or not playing. How do we fix this?

Preload. The second the FSD starts spooling, start loading the next system. While in Hyperspace, let me FLY the ship, while you background load. If I maintain a good path through the jump, grant me a bonus to my next spool up or SC Acceleration (thanks to other posters for this one).

Another idea: short range Auto pilot. Only handles 3-5 jumps at a time. Does not scoop. Needs recalibration periodically. That can be performed while in a jump.

As others have said, jumps need to be looked at. Both to reduce load times, and as opportunities for actual interactive gameplay.

Supercruise is a whole other issue. The mode is fine. Cool even. But long trips in this mode are not. How do we fix it?

First: both Silent Mode and Cargo Scanners need to work in SC. This way, we can engage in Cat and Mouse Stealth games while cruising.

Perhaps Silent Run caps you at 2/3 max SC speed. Exchange speed for lower profile. Smuggling? I'd take that trade. Likewise, while running silent, if you are undetected when you begin interdiction, you get a bonus tic on the progress bar. This would make SC engaging and offer a logical reason for the AI to stop interdiction of ships with no or low value cargo.

Thermal Flare routes. System painted routes we can fly outward from a star, that boost acceleration and resistance to deceleration while adhering to the route. These would twist and turn like gentle roads before tapering off, based on star class.

Anomalies. Radiation pockets. Debris fields. Things to steer around.

Slingshot routes. Let us scan planets to find their Slingshot routes. These would catapult us around them, for massive Acceleration boosts between bodies. Let us speed up SC in an interactive, engaging way, optional way.

I'm not looking to grossly shrink the galaxy. I am looking for more interaction and less waiting around, doing nothing, while traveling.