Update 15, the Upcoming Feature Rework and More

[Old Duck]

It depends. Powerplay done right would add a great deal to an already mature BGS- however its if it can be done in budget and if its worth the effort in return that is the big question.

2018s PP was achingly close to fruition, but when FD went through a harsh internal reorganisation the people who took over deprioritised PP and we had a number of wilderness years containing very wonky content.

I find the concept of Powerplay intriguing. I find the execution of Powerplay revolting. A rework of PP would definitely pique my interest.

Then again, so would a rework of the economy, a rework of security states (Anarchy vs HiSec), a rework of factions and BGS, a rework of missions, etc. etc. etc. I don't need everything in the game to be brilliant, I just want one thing (something I'm interested in) to be brilliant. And no, the Stellar Forge doesn't count, as brilliant as it is, because it's not gameplay.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I find the concept of Powerplay intriguing. I find the execution of Powerplay revolting. A rework of PP would definitely pique my interest.

Then again, so would a rework of the economy, a rework of security states (Anarchy vs HiSec), a rework of factions and BGS, a rework of missions, etc. etc. etc. I don't need everything in the game to be brilliant, I just want one thing (something I'm interested in) to be brilliant. And no, the Stellar Forge doesn't count, as brilliant as it is, because it's not gameplay.

What ED needs long term are reasons to engage with the wider game beyond engineering a ship. Factions are almost there, Powerplay (in concept) is there (but not in execution), while the Thargoid war is pretty decent.

 

[Old Duck]

[..] while the Thargoid war is pretty decent.

That one I'll have to take your word on, but I do like the idea of an AI "mastermind" determining how, when, and where to attack and expand, assuming this AI has some depth to it. I wish Elite has more of this, as it would make the NPC side of things feel more alive rather than an amusement park. I could compare and contrast to another game, but I better not, LOL.

 

[molgrips]

What actually goes on in Powerplay is incredible, but only at the top faction level. Those guys get to play an amazing game. The rest of us just shoot and haul.

 

[Jack Winter]

Its much, much simpler than that- in that give NPCs engineering and have mixed wings.

Before my Nemesis appears talking about the younglings I mean that engineered NPCs are added as extra tiers above what the hardest is now, and that through mission design / POIs / scenarios they are intelligently added so that you have to face them (and provide that opposition required). The issue is most, if not all NPCs are highly regimented and lack variation, mix up NPCs, add in variation and you are almost there.

They could match their level of ability to play par with up to the best PvP commanders. That ought to make the game very interesting for everyone again.

 

[Rubbernuke]

They could match their level of ability to play par with up to the best PvP commanders. That ought to make the game very interesting for everyone again.

FD almost got it right several times, but went backwards. For example, the first pirate hordes with an FDL and flock of others. Even a humble Sidewinder in a group with a random layout would be fun- just anything but the limited ships we see now. Players are so good against NPCs because we know up front what we'll face- randomise and this advantage vanishes.

 

[Jack Winter]

They could easily do this for PP missions, like that it would be opt-in instead of mandatory for every player. Some additional end content.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Im wondering if this new Thargoid Campaign AI has something to do with it, perhaps it is a first taste of the tech that will be folded into that existing core mechanic overhaul. When viewed like that both PowerPlay as the core mechanic overhaul and the delay due to concentrating on the Narrative makes sense plus it is also tightly embedded into the BGS which is something Codebase 4.0 introduced. Either this AI has shown great promise and more ideas about a PowerPlay v2 have come out of this Narrative test bed or things have proven more tricky and so the same people who would be working full time on the Powerplay overhaul have had to spend more of their time getting it working in the Narrative. Seems to fit quite well.

That could be true indirectly even if the Thargoid war is nothing to do with it as such - the war has been surprisingly popular, so they may have spent more time balancing and refining (and maybe deciding to spend more time on it in general) than they originally thought they would, which delays other things.

but I do like the idea of an AI "mastermind" determining how, when, and where to attack and expand, assuming this AI has some depth to it.

It's doing a surprisingly good impression of many human ED strategists, given the situation and constraints it's in.

Specifically, it's being ultra-cautious, turtling massively, and trying to wear out its opponents' will to resist.

 

[Frankymole]

Well, we already know it is a feature rework so nothing new.
TheBuurPit thinks it will be a PowerPlay rework, linked to the PMF. More direct ways to influence the galaxy for players, things like that.

Possibly based on the Thargoid War mechanics. Changing ownership and influence of systems, whether by war or elections or other acts.

 

[CMDR Wyatt Novak]

So, I dont know if this has been answered yet. But they say the console transfers coming in April. Is that, April 1st or sometime in April?

 

[EdzUp]

That one I'll have to take your word on, but I do like the idea of an AI "mastermind" determining how, when, and where to attack and expand, assuming this AI has some depth to it. I wish Elite has more of this, as it would make the NPC side of things feel more alive rather than an amusement park. I could compare and contrast to another game, but I better not, LOL.

They should have done the same thing for all the PP factions so the BGS is akin to a massive Civ game

 

[Ian Doncaster]

So, I dont know if this has been answered yet. But they say the console transfers coming in April. Is that, April 1st or sometime in April?

April 1st is a Saturday, so I think you can be pretty confident not then. If they say April, they mean "could be any time in April" and you should generally expect later rather than earlier.

 

[amigacooke]

The idea that the Thargoids War is a self contained, self regulating entity seems unlikely to me if Frontier need to inject updates to move it along.

U15 will release at least nearly 6 months after U14, U16 who knows. The future’s …… delayed.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The idea that the Thargoids War is a self contained, self regulating entity seems unlikely to me if Frontier need to inject updates to move it along.

It can be both. If Frontier end up deciding "no more updates" then the Thargoid War as-is will still carry on indefinitely (and on the current balance reach a stalemate position at roughly the current size) with the Thargoids making moves according to the current strategy. It won't be novel but it will provide a permanent semi-dynamic battlefront for people who like fighting Thargoids.

Equally, there are several updates Frontier might intend to make that couldn't be put in place for the start of U14 - the ability to repel Maelstroms and the Thargoids to add (or reposition) them has been hinted at in Galnet, for example - and it would likely be a more strategically interesting war with those updates.



On a more general point, one thing I've mentioned before is that systems where the only major non-deterministic input is players do tend towards fairly boring equilibrium if possible - people can generally assess the relative strengths and make sure they only start fights they can win, powerful groups tend to agree borders rather than start giant multi-system wars, while small groups get unceremoniously crushed. The major sources of excitement come when people deliberately do strategically unwise but entertaining things (with enough tactical strength for it to not get immediately stopped).

So even with a fully player-dynamic Thargoid+BGS+Powerplay+stuff integrated system for managing the galaxy, the likelihood is that players would collectively manage it into "let's keep something very like the status quo" (a relatively mild loss-aversion and prioritising of maintenance over expansion would do that) - Frontier will always need to be injecting adverse events to regularly shake things up even if the nature of those events is different to the pre-U13 "CGs and Incursions" play.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It can be both. If Frontier end up deciding "no more updates" then the Thargoid War as-is will still carry on indefinitely (and on the current balance reach a stalemate position at roughly the current size) with the Thargoids making moves according to the current strategy. It won't be novel but it will provide a permanent semi-dynamic battlefront for people who like fighting Thargoids.

Equally, there are several updates Frontier might intend to make that couldn't be put in place for the start of U14 - the ability to repel Maelstroms and the Thargoids to add (or reposition) them has been hinted at in Galnet, for example - and it would likely be a more strategically interesting war with those updates.



On a more general point, one thing I've mentioned before is that systems where the only major non-deterministic input is players do tend towards fairly boring equilibrium if possible - people can generally assess the relative strengths and make sure they only start fights they can win, powerful groups tend to agree borders rather than start giant multi-system wars, while small groups get unceremoniously crushed. The major sources of excitement come when people deliberately do strategically unwise but entertaining things (with enough tactical strength for it to not get immediately stopped).

So even with a fully player-dynamic Thargoid+BGS+Powerplay+stuff integrated system for managing the galaxy, the likelihood is that players would collectively manage it into "let's keep something very like the status quo" (a relatively mild loss-aversion and prioritising of maintenance over expansion would do that) - Frontier will always need to be injecting adverse events to regularly shake things up even if the nature of those events is different to the pre-U13 "CGs and Incursions" play.

Remember Powerplay was supposed to inject peril by making Powers collapse- this being a non starter because it required too much dev input. Maelstroms and BGS retreats are better ways of enabling such disasters in a self contained programmatic way- Goids being AI led and Powerplay via players (with factions semi auto).

 

[Darkfyre99]

All this talk about a PowerPlay and BGS-play rework has gotten my hopes up. The first was a brilliant concept with a pathetic execution. The latter was a lot of fun, until Frontier removed most of its depth due to player complaints, transforming it into (mostly) a straight head-to-head influence grind. I need to remember that Frontier has a long history of starting strong with depth, then filling in that depth with grind in response to player feedback.

edit: or mistaking complexity for depth. Can’t forget that!

 

[Rubbernuke]

All this talk about a PowerPlay and BGS-play rework has gotten my hopes up. The first was a brilliant concept with a pathetic execution. The latter was a lot of fun, until Frontier removed most of its depth due to player complaints, transforming it into (mostly) a straight head-to-head influence grind. I need to remember that Frontier has a long history of starting strong with depth, then filling in that depth with grind in response to player feedback.

edit: or mistaking complexity for depth. Can’t forget that!

The trick being mapping the hardest NPCs to those who do the most to provide that NPC opposition, as any enemy would pick on those 'aces' regardless. This is entirely possible using the mission, POI, PP rank system.

What should not happen is NPCs not going after these people (like what happens now in PP where is Tesco day every day). Even if players opt to do lots of low end missions at some point the NPCs will see that effort and adjust accordingly.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Remember Powerplay was supposed to inject peril by making Powers collapse- this being a non starter because it required too much dev input.

That's true but I think it would in many respects have ended up counter-productive anyway. In general terms, only the weakest powers (with the fewest supporters) would collapse. Their replacement would generally have even fewer supporters (and possibly also poor initial organisation or limited mechanical experience), all the good territory already taken, and therefore likely be even less successful.

After a few cycles of that there might not even be anywhere sensible to place the new short-lived powers; they had enough trouble finding space for Grom, as I recall.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's true but I think it would in many respects have ended up counter-productive anyway. In general terms, only the weakest powers (with the fewest supporters) would collapse. Their replacement would generally have even fewer supporters (and possibly also poor initial organisation or limited mechanical experience), all the good territory already taken, and therefore likely be even less successful.

After a few cycles of that there might not even be anywhere sensible to place the new short-lived powers; they had enough trouble finding space for Grom, as I recall.

Its purpose really was to drive dynamism, because the other aspect which flew out the window was that powers had to expand, and if they did not after 3 cycles they'd be in danger.

Since none of this happened PP went into a slow decline where it became gardening, to the point today where (ironically) most PP action comes in the form of BGS attacks. So for me its logical to fold PP into the BGS and use its strengths, as you then have the bubble pulled by factions, powers and Goids. I would like superpowers to have some sort of bonus too (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...ignment-numbers-have-bgs-consequences.543240/)but currently....welll

 

[aRJay]

FD almost got it right several times, but went backwards. For example, the first pirate hordes with an FDL and flock of others. Even a humble Sidewinder in a group with a random layout would be fun- just anything but the limited ships we see now. Players are so good against NPCs because we know up front what we'll face- randomise and this advantage vanishes.

Not all of us are as well researched or remember well enough to make this a significant advantage. That said more variety would be good after all there must be some law abiding NPCs flying Cobra 4s or Asp Scouts somewhere.

So, I dont know if this has been answered yet. But they say the console transfers coming in April. Is that, April 1st or sometime in April?

All Saturdays and Sundays are unlikely start dates as are Friday 7th & Monday 10th due to UK Holidays, towards the later part of the month is probably most likely.