Update 6 Terrain Comparison Thread

[Ian Skippy]

I don't want to go back to Horizons. I want what Horizons should have evolved into.

And your question highlights a logical fallacy that almost everyone on these threads (including myself) is guilty of - that we should be comparing Odyssey to Horizons. Of course Odyssey will look better than Horizons (in most instances). FDev have had years to work on the new planetary tech, a primary aim being to introduce the fine detail that Horizons, as its precursor, lacked.

People are posting all these screenshots of beautiful Odyssey landscapes with highly detailed hills, escarpments, ridges, etc. (and mostly they really are beautiful), and then saying, "look, of course Odyssey is better!" Well, yes, surely years of work adding the parts Horizons lacks should make it look better.

You'll find quite a few people here explicitly arguing Horizons looks better. Which is pretty silly.

But getting past superficial looks, what I also see is something quite different. What I see is an expansion that has dumbed down the procgen to such an extent, it's hardly procgen any more. It's more procedural placement of repeating terrain assets, rather than procedural generation of terrain.

The vexing part is, why did they do it this way? The obvious answer is time and money. It was probably the simplest method. But I see nothing in these new biomes that couldn't have been created procedurally, and there are plenty of examples "in the wild" of similar terrain generation. Some of these biomes are very straight forward indeed. Obviously I'm unaware of the limitations of the proprietary, closed source Cobra engine, but I would have thought Odyssey would have been the ideal showcase for FDev to take the lead again in procgen game development. Instead, they've regressed, and we get repeating terrain tiles and homogeneity.

What I would have hoped for in Odyssey planetary tech is for FDev to have used a modified Horizons procgen code base, and then added the fine detail procgen for each new biome. The result - every geological formation unique, and with the necessary chaos introduced to result in sporadic outlier geology like we see right now in Horizons.

So here is what it boils down to: if you go down to EDO planets, do they look 'less unique' and 'more samey'? Because that is ultimately what this is all about: to create a near infinite gameworld to play in. I have been to 200 planets or so in EDO and can confidently say that the EDO system results every bit as much in the feeling of landing on a unique location as Horizons did; it is just better looking with, on average, more variation.

So I'd prefer to compare Odyssey to What-Odyssey-Should-Have-Been, not Horizons, and I'm still a little dumbfounded that David Braben could be happy with this dumbing down of the procgen. But it is what it is.

This is peak DD. We get a new system that looks better than the old one, and is lightyears ahead of what NMS or SC have. But we still burn the forums down with weeks of drama because reality is apparently not as good as some hypothetical alternative we do not even know is possible, even just in theory, and would not have any practical effects when landing on them and just playing the game in the first place.

I swear, people here don't want to enjoy a fun space game. At some point, all flaws and issues aside, people go so overboard their unhappiness is really just their own fault.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Its irrelevant what other people see. I know what I see. You have my synopsis of them.

So that's a "no" then. That video is not an imagination or artist impression of my feelings, it's a capture of how the game looks.

And it's miles beyond Horizons.

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

You'll find quite a few people here explicitly arguing Horizons looks better. Which is pretty silly.

So here is what it boils down to: if you go down to EDO planets, do they look 'less unique' and 'more samey'? Because that is ultimately what this is all about: to create a near infinite gameworld to play in. I have been to 200 planets or so in EDO and can confidently say that the EDO system results every bit as much in the feeling of landing on a unique location as Horizons did; it is just better looking with, on average, more variation.



This is peak DD. We get a new system that looks better than the old one, and is lightyears ahead of what NMS or X4 have. But we still burn the forums down with weeks of drama because reality is apparently not as good as some hypothetical alternative we do not even know is possible, even just in theory, and would not have any practical effects when landing on them and just playing the game in the first place.

I swear, people here don't want to enjoy a fun space game. At some point, all flaws and issues aside, people go so overboard their unhappiness is really just their own fault.

Its not silly you just arnt taking into account how bugged and bad its looking for some people. Feel free to look at my recent screens in Odyssey thread or I am happy to show you examples of the things I point out are bad for me. I have PLENTY of shots.

Because you see some awesome video or Frontier trailer doesnt mean anything when most of the time out of MY setup its a buggy mess. I can get the occasional beautiful Odyssey shot sure. But in motion for me it looks poor and most of the time my screens look poor.

Sometimes the only way I can get detailed textures to load in is physically landing to force a load. In ship its usually 500m-1k.

You have to understand what you see isn't what others see.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Its not silly you just arnt taking into account how bugged and bad its looking for some people. Feel free to look at my recent screens in Odyssey thread or I am happy to show you examples of the things I point out are bad for me. I have PLENTY of shots.

Because you see some awesome video or Frontier trailer doesnt mean anything when most of the time out of MY setup its a buggy mess. I can get the occasional beautiful Odyssey shot sure. But in motion for me it looks poor and most of the time my screens look poor.

Sometimes the only way I can get detailed textures to load in is physically landing to force a load. In ship its usually 500m-1k.

You have to understand what you see isn't what others see.

You have it set to ultra+?

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

So that's a "no" then. That video is not an imagination or artist impression of my feelings, it's a capture of how the game looks.

And it's miles beyond Horizons.

Its a capture of how one persons game looks. If its not my game its completely irrelevant. Especially if Horizons doesn't have problems and Odyssey does. Of course in that scenario Horizons is better. But you just can't seem to accept that. Life goes on.

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

You have it set to ultra+?

I run everything ultra except ss which is at 1.0, I do not run ultra for capture. My system meets recommended specs and I play at 1080p.

 

[Erei]

You'll find quite a few people here explicitly arguing Horizons looks better. Which is pretty silly.

I do think Horizon is better for terrain generation, and worse for color variety/textures.

Since, to me, terrain generation is a bigger priority than ground texture and color variety, I prefer horizon.


An Ultra+ feature for a limited amount of GPU on a game suffering heavy performances issue is a poor solution.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I do think Horizon is better for terrain generation, and worse for color variety/textures.

Of course it is...

I have around 1,000 screenshots of 'places of interest' from Horizons over the last few years, the majority look pretty much like this - only a few with 'interesting' extreme terrain. Yet these bodies above had 'something' to make visiting them worthwhile at the time.

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

Of course it is...
View attachment 254218
View attachment 254219
I have around 1,000 screenshots of 'places of interest' from Horizons over the last few years, the majority look pretty much like this - only a few with 'interesting' extreme terrain. Yet these bodies above had 'something' to make visiting them worthwhile at the time.

In both those shots you have linked you can see the limited sphere of detail I have been trying to make my point about around you. When I am in ship and cruising over a planet and checking it out that detail doesn't even load in for me most of the time. IF I am lucky and I land or bump the nose of my ship into the ground I can get the detail to appear sometimes. The only sure way I have found (Even before patch six, since Odyssey inception in fact) for me to force a load is to disembark in SRV or foot and then it does appear. Look into the hills into the distance a bit in both and they are bland and formless, thats the point.

If I can land and disembark and get the load yeah it can look really good. But most of the time it doesn't look really good, it looks quite poor. On Ice planets I wont even get the frost sparkle if I'm flying above in a ship. I literally have to get out to make it appear. In such a scenario is it so hard to to imagine someone thinking Horizons superior? I feel it is, if you feel it don't that's fine I respect it.

The thing with bugs and problem is not everyone is affected not everyone suffers the same problems as others. I cant say it looks terrible for everyone because maybe my problems are unique to me and my setup. But at the same time if it looks great for you and many people are complaning, instead of not being able to believe it and maybe people are crazy, maybe they are having problems you don't notice or see.

I said on another thread different things are important to people and affects their opinions and positions. I think most of us here have been playing Elite a long time and I think everyone's opinions are valid.

I think Odyssey is still teething and its buggy as heck and my position is firm in thinking Horizons is the superior performing overall package. I readily admit to Odyssey bringing things to the table and having superior capabilities but until that's utilized and working and smooth on my end its not what I can honestly say is better.


Its better in space, its better in combat, I love the new combat effects and when the lighting isn't being weird I always fly in Odyssey when I was still playing and doing my normal thing. My fps is so poor I cant do the foot missions and czs so I refrain from commenting on them because I'm not playing at 30 fps. The one thing I can do right now is explore and at least enjoy the more stable fps patch 6 brought for non settlement / cz planet performance, so its what I'm doing.

I feel Odyssey planets tend to have very distinct color sections where one color stops and another takes over. Last night I was a little frustrated with what I was seeing in Odyssey so I stopped over to Horizons to get some perspective. First planet I hit, just check out all the color variation and how they are weaved together in the rocks in the foreground. Its easy to champion the new stuff but after cramming Odyssey every time I go back to Horizons I cant help but feel impressed and feel like right now Oddy feels like a regression, the lighting doesn't bug out, the shadows don't flicker, things on planets aren't shrinking and moving as you change distance to them. its smooth and nice because it was worked on and polished for years. Odyssey will get there and overcome Horizons, but for me, its not there yet.

In the distance Horizons definitely lacks the definition and sharp form Odyssey terrain can have but Ive been getting weird shimmering from lines in Odyssey so even that superior feature temporarily set back.

Hoping to help explain why maybe people aren't all onboard the Odyssey planetary celebration parade. Or at least myself.

Horizons Shot from last night

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

If anyone has read any of my critiques its that things look like undetailed clay (Always when I'm flying over planets and before I land to force a load, unless really close ship proximity will force the load).

Here's a few screen shots that I didn't cherry pick for looking good for the Odyssey screenshot thread but ones I looked at and just sighed. But its a good example of what I am experiencing and what keeps Odyssey from being better than Horizons.

These are bad shots, and normally things I wouldn't try to show off. But its the perfect example of what happens when detail doesn't load and what I usually get to see. Feeling diplomatic and trying to show you folks who think this is some kind of Odyssey hate train thing its really not, what I see is just poor.

Poor Odyssey shots showing no detail loading - The Clay Look

 

[Rat Catcher]

I have just set course for Synuefe CB-M C24-15 body 3 to see how it looks in Odyssey - I've not visited any Brain Trees since it was released. I'll post a screenie or 2 later

 

[Rat Catcher]

In both those shots you have linked you can see the limited sphere of detail I have been trying to make my point about around you. When I am in ship and cruising over a planet and checking it out that detail doesn't even load in for me most of the time. IF I am lucky and I land or bump the nose of my ship into the ground I can get the detail to appear sometimes. The only sure way I have found (Even before patch six, since Odyssey inception in fact) for me to force a load is to disembark in SRV or foot and then it does appear. Look into the hills into the distance a bit in both and they are bland and formless, thats the point.

Odyssey is very odd as it is unpredicatable in appearance over different (or from comments here, similar) hardware.
In earlier patches flying over the surface at around 1km could have terrible textures and 'pop-in' or be smooth, although more likely terrible!

Update 6 has improved this, for me, considerably, as I don't recall any terrible landscape issues, but will be travelling for another week or so, so if that changes I'll be honest about it.

I have several hours of livestream since Update 6 on youtube as I make my way from the bubble back to Colonia, if you wish to take a peek (fast forwarding to the landings as watching 'exploration' is a little like watching paint dry) and compare to your own results?

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Just one small thing, please don't bring DLSS into this FSR just wishes to be DLSS 2.0. FSR only works for people running WQHD and 4k, while as CP2077 has proven to me, DLSS 2.0 works wonderfully on fullHD as well, without the visual artifacts you get if you try FSR and fullHD in Elite. Yes, it only works on nVidia cards, and it requires DX12 (which is why it can't be in ED), but at least it works equally on all resolutions.

FSR at best is a bandaid fix for people playing in 4k with older GPUs. Nothing more.

I have found it does a decent job at 2k as well.

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

Odyssey is very odd as it is unpredicatable in appearance over different (or from comments here, similar) hardware.
In earlier patches flying over the surface at around 1km could have terrible textures and 'pop-in' or be smooth, although more likely terrible!

Update 6 has improved this, for me, considerably, as I don't recall any terrible landscape issues, but will be travelling for another week or so, so if that changes I'll be honest about it.

I have several hours of livestream since Update 6 on youtube as I make my way from the bubble back to Colonia, if you wish to take a peek (fast forwarding to the landings as watching 'exploration' is a little like watching paint dry) and compare to your own results?

Sure always happy to look at others content and compare.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Hoping to help explain why maybe people aren't all onboard the Odyssey planetary celebration parade. Or at least myself.

But you are basically just saying you are suffering from performance issues, causing your pc to not stream data fast enough. That isn't a critique of the planet generation, but about performance/optimization. And sure, that is very valid critique, and I am sure it greatly hinders your appreciation of this and other aspects of EDO. I think improving that is top of the list for nearly everyone, and FD acknowledged it as a prime issue to be fixed. But its hasn't much to do with the planet generation itself, which simply is better than Horizons.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Just one small thing, please don't bring DLSS into this FSR just wishes to be DLSS 2.0. FSR only works for people running WQHD and 4k, while as CP2077 has proven to me, DLSS 2.0 works wonderfully on fullHD as well, without the visual artifacts you get if you try FSR and fullHD in Elite. Yes, it only works on nVidia cards, and it requires DX12 (which is why it can't be in ED), but at least it works equally on all resolutions.

FSR at best is a bandaid fix for people playing in 4k with older GPUs. Nothing more.

It works very, very well on 4k, and is as much a bandaid fix as DLSS is. I use both when possible and find both useful techniques. In any case, the idea that 'it only works for people on 4k' is somehow worse than "it only works for DX12 games and people with specific nvidia cards" is not.

Beyond that, FSR is the way forward obviously. Not because it is better tech, but because it is far easier to implement, works on nearly all GPUs, works on modern consoles and doesn't require extensive assistence from NVidia. We'll see DLSS being supported on a number of big titles every year, but going forward everything else will start to offer FSR. Which, like DLSS, will improve with time.

I havent had an AMD card in ages, but find this tribal thing a bit silly. Its good that these things are being developed and they will only make life better for gamers.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Furthermore, this new terrain generation technique, I believe, will mean that I will no longer find planets with the unique and unusual geological characteristics I used to find in Horizons. There will be no outliers like 20 km high mountains, etc. (I won't elaborate. This aspect has been discussed to death by others).

These tiles can be stretched/morphed in every dimension. It is up to FD to set these parameters, but there is no fundamental reason why using tiles + 'math' on top of it cannot result in unique and extreme terrain.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

In my experience patch 6 certainly improved terrain detail as it is morphing less - I can take the colour changes even though they can look a bit whacky sometimes as they further underline tile repetition (I don't come across them often but every now and then I do and it's very, very obvious then; I'm not actively looking for them though). The worst offender is our famous crater which often reminds me of the Japanese rising sun flag now.

The one thing I'm still not happy with is the object pop in - the draw distance seems to have been shorted even further, and you have to be quite low to make rocks and other objects appear at all. Not particularly great for spotting plants and the like.

Edit - though I just remember it seems to have introduced some weird colour morphing; say a planet at first appears white, when you get closer to the ground and check your ship from a little distance, look 2/3 ahead and the ground colour changes within a certain radius to a different colour, say grey - once you see it it's difficult to unsee.

So the usual principle applies then - FDev giveth, yet they taketh away elsewhere.

 

[Far Beyond Driven]

But you are basically just saying you are suffering from performance issues, causing your pc to not stream data fast enough. That isn't a critique of the planet generation, but about performance/optimization. And sure, that is very valid critique, and I am sure it greatly hinders your appreciation of this and other aspects of EDO. I think improving that is top of the list for nearly everyone, and FD acknowledged it as a prime issue to be fixed. But its hasn't much to do with the planet generation itself, which simply is better than Horizons.

I am not impressed with the actual form of the terrain under the textures at all. Everything looks super cookie cutter. I've only had maybe 30 hours of exploration and planet diving since Odyssey came out so maybe there's some really cool stuff out there because I mean everything cant be awesome and unique, wasn't under Horizons either. Odyssey planets have a very map tool generated vibe to them to me. Horizons look very organic, all kinds of random noise and stuff in the algorithm or something I don't know what it is.

Most of those impressions imply to flying over planets and seeing features. Once you land and you get that detail to pop in, it does amazing localized vistas. Im talking about looking at planets from space / glide height though and taking them in.

That freaking crater that stands out, all the mountains generally look so similar. Plans, Mountains, weird melty hill things all in distinct areas. Horizons planets just felt super random and chaotic. I don't know hard to explain but that's my take so far.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Brain Trees revisited:

And, processing on youtube currently:
The approach and little walkabout - once again, going back to Horizons has messed up my Bindings!