Update 9.01 - Patch Notes

[TEBORI]

@galahad2069

TC is pretty much the only thing that stands in the way of a hitscan meta, which would be a thousand times worse than TC PA's.

nope, cause related to SRB Rails they are not hitscan. or in other words. to release the full damage power of srb rails one has to keep his target in a range of 1 km or less. this will be a major problem for the majority of all pvp fighters and it could even be countered with jousting and a high alpha damage build.

even a 4 rail srb fdl, related to a ganking attack on a sitting target, deploys only about 280 damage each 1,5 seconds and this can be only achieved with a build with lots of heatsinks. there is definitely more time to escape for the victim compared to a TC Plasma Ram attack of an FDL which can deploy 1500 Alpha Damage in the worst case.

so i really see no problem at all if Plasma TC damage gets lowered in a reasonable way.

 

[galahad2069]

@galahad2069


nope, cause related to SRB Rails they are not hitscan. or in other words. to release the full damage power of rsb rails one has to keep his target in a range of 1 km or less. this will be a major problem for the majority of all pvp fighters and it could even be countered with jousting and a high alpha damage build.

even a 4 rail srb fld, related to a ganking attack on a sitting target, deploys only about 280 damage each 1,5 seconds and this can be only achieved with a build with lots of heatsinks. there is definitely more time to escape for the victim compared to a TC Plasma Ram attack of an FDL which can deploy 1500 Alpha Damage in the worst case.

so i really see no problem at all if TC damage gets lowered in a reasonable way.

1. All kind of rails are hitscan, SRB or not. That's just a simple fact. Point and click (with a little delay), zero shot travel time.

2. Range control is equally important while using SRB rails and PA's. That's literally how you can make use of the full damage potential of both kind of weapons. You're not gonna be able to put out a decent plasma dps unless you can preturn and stay close. I think one of my squadron mates demonstrated it for you quite clearly a couple of weeks ago.

3. A wing of SRB rail FDL's have extremely low TTK, they can easily outdamage a wing of non-TC PA builds, as it was proven in the League Season 5 finals.

4. I was talking about PvP balance which has literally nothing to do with any kind of gank situations, especially not the ones in which the gankee is roleplaying a sitting duck in a crappy NPC build. That's not how you can reach a meaningful PvP balance. TC is totally irrelevant in that case, you cannot seriously think that anyone needs TC to kill a non-PvP ship, while PvP ships, on the other hand, can easily escape if so they choose, TC or not. Most career gankers don't even use PA's, as there are equally or more effective and way easier to use options like frag Mambas or rail Condas or anything like that.

 

[TEBORI]

@galahad2069
i care mostly related to organic pvp. there are several facts why elite is not supposed to be a fair esports game where skill can be really measured.

I think one of my squadron mates demonstrated it for you quite clearly a couple of weeks ago.

related to this, this hours just proved very clearly whats really the deciding facts related to range control, and its not only skill. you would be very suprised what would happen if your squadron mate would have the same computer i have and would be connected to same internet gateway. but this is a different story.
with equal computer, ping time and most for all in EDO keeping a range of 1 km related to high tot is a complete different beast you guys are used to.

i see no danger that a normal rail build with long range (which are really hitscan) could be any problem for a worse meta cause a standard PA build without any TC would still be superior (for example PA huge, mid, mid efficient and one mid overcharged/srb on a FDL)

and yes TC is the difference here cause even ri...ler admitted that his trade guide in open does not longer work cause of the actual broken TC mechanic. before it worked.
the actuel TC mechanic is a fun killer for a lot of people. or why do you think it was voted in the top 20% of all issues....

 

[galahad2069]

i care mostly related to organic pvp. there are several facts why elite is not supposed to be a fair esports game where skill can be really measured.

Organic PvP != engineered vs unengineered ganking scenarios.

related to this, this hours just proved very clearly whats really the deciding facts related to range control, and its not only skill. you would be very suprised what would happen if your squadron mate would have the same computer i have and would be connected to same internet gateway. but this is a different story.
with equal computer, ping time and most for all in EDO keeping a range of 1 km related to high tot is a complete different beast you guys are used to.

So what you wanted to say was that my squadron mate could preturn you in loops and hit you with PA's consistently because his connection is bad? or because it's too good? or because yours is too good? or bad? I'm not sure I'm following you.

with equal computer, ping time and most for all in EDO keeping a range of 1 km related to high tot is a complete different beast you guys are used to.

We are used to all kind of connections. For example, most of the time I'm playing on a fibre optic broadband (1 Gbps up / 1 Gbps down), some ppl are using worse connections. I agree that ED is not ideally suited for fair esports because of P2P, but claiming that connection is everything and skills play no role would be absolutely delusional.

i see no danger that a normal rail build with long range (which are really hitscan) could be any problem for a worse meta cause a standard PA build without any TC would still be superior (for example PA huge, mid, mid efficient and one mid overcharged/srb on a FDL)

Long range hitscan is not fun in large numbers because it's way too powerful relative to how easy it is to hit with it. Besides, it encourages reverski in open space.
SRB rails are hitscan too, idk why you keep insisting that they aren't.
As for PA's: without TC there's no point adding an overcharged or SRB PA to the mix, the ~30 extra damage is not really worth the distro pressure IMO.

and yes TC is the difference here cause even ri...ler admitted that his trade guide in open does not longer work cause of the actual broken TC mechanic.

No, it's absolutely false. Honestly, you have way more chance surviving a gank from TC PA's than you do from proper gank weapons. I've already mentioned ramming frag Mambas (among other builds), which you seem to keep ignoring. Rinzler hasn't really been active since early 2019 afaik, but his half a decade old video is still valid. You could add "and engineer your goddamned shields" and that's about it.

the actuel TC mechanic is a fun killer for a lot of people. or why do you think it was voted in the top 20% of all issues....

Those people who think it's only the TC mechanism what makes them keep losing don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. Sad truth.
Edit: or they just live in your echo chamber and vote up what they are told to on an otherwise dead issue tracker.
Or both.

 

[TEBORI]

@galahad2069

So what you wanted to say was that my squadron mate could preturn you in loops and hit you with PA's consistently because his connection is bad? or because it's too good? or because yours is too good? or bad? I'm not sure I'm following you.

there are many aspects which come in the pot related to the movement of the opponent ship and how easy or hard it is for you to hit - and i dont mean at all how the other pilots flies his ship.

we are not in a mutual relation of trust where i would discuss such things with you in detail.
but one last note. workgroups of us investigated this aspect of combat very very detailed this year (the evening with your "squadron mate" was part of this) and our results are much more significant for me as anything someone could say or claim from your community to pretend "its all just skill"!

oh and in case some Devs read this. a big thank you whatever you did to update 7 of EDO. cause the behavier of the ships changed there in tremendously positive way when the environments of the rivals are not equal. o7

 

[TEBORI]

@galahad2069

Those people who think it's only the TC mechanism what makes them keep losing don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. Sad truth.

even yamato confirmed here in forum not long ago that TC is very broken. so much for the "echo chamber"

you guys are in your echo chamber. and i dont have any problem with it. and besides this conversation is over now. everything else you want to discuss with me send a pm. i dont want to spam this thread any more with personal disputes

 

[Legendary Keks]

Hello Akuma,
TC is broken in a way that it makes the most garbage and hard to controll weapon viable. Plasmas have garbage shot speed, fire once every 3 seconds and have a dps that even gimbaled multicannon the most simplest and easy to learn weapon surpass. Im talking about true dps, meaning alot of the time you are not in position to shot with pas and therefore lose dps. Therefore if you make plasmas worse, by nerving tc there will be another meta. And the new meta will be rails. Rails hit instantnious have absolute MASSIVE dps if you look at shortrange or can be played by long range yeeters which simply fly backward... Where is the skill?!?! Its gonna be straightout boring....
I think that rails are strong, and plasmas are strong when they are played right, but in order to do the same damage with plasmas you have to do more. That way i dont see why you would say that plasmas need to be nerved.
Also i dont understand, why you say that i have a bad computer, and that this can be the only cause that i can range controll and you can not. Why do you not use plasmas if you think they are to strong and you will see that its ing hard to deliver constant damage. Why do i not see you in casual pvp events like Wyrd Wednesday??

 

[Legendary Keks]

Edit: shortrange Weapons need alot of skill to be used to maximum effectiveness, still the shortrange rail build is the strongest build there is right now in Elite Dangerous no questions asked, but it still needs less skill then plasmas, because you have to aim with plasmas or controll the reticule with a decent boost cycle, good pip management and preturns...
I even have showed you how preturns work and you still dont believe in skill and micromanagement, but rather think its a coincedence bc my computer isnt good...
so why is it that i can reproduce it all the time and vs most comanders?!?

 

[Legendary Keks]

If odysse gets merged with horizons i can show you that even when the ships behave better i can still do it...

or you buy me odysee

 

[Legendary Keks]

If you ask me what one could do to improve organic fights I would answer that the maximum range of all weapons should be reduced to 3 km, so reverski yeeters arent viable anymore.

 

[TEBORI]

odysee will never get "merged" with horizons. there will be a new client for horizon players with odysse tech without the foot part imho.

i am able to range control i like to fly the plasma chargers atm which have also a damage fall off starting at 1 km.

midclass hull tanks correctly built can have 12k thermal hull. good luck to take them out with just rail guns.

and related to full reverski rail style i guess this is nothing we really have to talk about.

 

[TEBORI]

If you ask me what one could do to improve organic fights is to reduce the maximum range of all weapons to 3 km, so reverski yeeters arent viable anymore.

thats a suggestion i really like

 

[TEBORI]

Why do i not see you in casual pvp events like Wyrd Wednesday??

cause i dislike some people there. and we have enough pvp events and possibilities where i can play in an enjoyable environment.

 

[Legendary Keks]

odysee will never get "merged" with horizons. there will be a new client for horizon players with odysse tech without the foot part imho.

i am able to range control i like to fly the plasma chargers atm which have also a damage fall off starting at 1 km.

midclass hull tanks correctly built can have 12k thermal hull. good luck to take them out with just rail guns.

and related to full reverski rail style i guess this is nothing we really have to talk about.

12 k thermal? what kinda ship is that?? I know that you like a Fas or Krait mk 2, but they only have 5 k absolute hull so id ram them to death while killing modules with 3 super pen rails

 

[TEBORI]

3/4 Plasma 2/1 Rail was always the meta, also in the past before 60% TC buff was a thing. but in the times when TC was normal it was reasonable to fight plasma ships with other builds and weapons. today its not if you are not a evasion ace and play m&k.

 

[Legendary Keks]

cause i dislike some people there. and we have enough pvp events and possibilities where i can play in an enjoyable environment.

For me fighting in rings is the most fun to play pvp... Do you do that in your pvp Trainings/events? If yes could i join you? You could even watch from the second seat in my fdl

 

[TEBORI]

12 k thermal? what kinda ship is that?? I know that you like a Fas or Krait mk 2, but they only have 5 k absolute hull so id ram them to death while killing modules with 3 super pen rails

watch this fight and think again. and we both had 3 super pens

Source: https://youtu.be/5CMQyWJzOI0

 

[TEBORI]

For me fighting in rings is the most fun to play pvp... Do you do that in your pvp Trainings/events? If yes could i join you? You could even watch from the second seat in my fdl

in principle yes but you can only join in EDO, we dont play EDH any more.

 

[Legendary Keks]

3/4 Plasma 2/1 Rail was always the meta, also in the past before 60% TC buff was a thing. but in the times when TC was normal it was reasonable to fight plasma ships with other builds and weapons. today its not if you are not a evasion ace and play m&k.

imo gimballed multis kill everything... even a wing of srb rail builds with good pilots will easily win against a wing of plasma pilots... the new plasma chargers make evading impossible, but they dont deliver as much damage for their energy in wep cap. There are multible bulds that i with my 5 pa fdl would have no chance against... even with tc

 

[Legendary Keks]

in principle yes but you can only join in EDO, we dont play EDH any more.

ill think about it