General Use current narrative to refit Type-7 for medium pads

Nerf the T7? What other medium freighter is there besides the Python? Let's take a look and compare which would be the other choices:

1. T7 - 310 cargo potential, 4 small hardpoints (large pad only)
2. Python - 294 cargo potential. Loses by 16 (just ~5%) but ship hull weighs the same, no small points but gets 2 medium hardpoints, 3 large hardpoints, 2 PP sizes, 1 Thruster size for more speed, 3 Power Distributor and Sensor sizes. And still fits the medium pad.
3. Imperial Clipper - 250 cargo. Large pad, so no choice here.
4. Krait Mk2 - 230 cargo. Loses by 64 to the Python (27%), but weighs 30 less so it handles and jumps better and can fit a SLF, so you can see the 64 trade-off very clearly as the rest is equal to the Python.
5. Orca - 194 cargo. Large pad, so no choice here.
6. Federal Gunship - 170 cargo. This is already way too below the python to be considered a choice, so it's the last one I'm listing here. Ship hull weighs a whopping 230 more than the best choice above and has a smaller fuel tank, so the jump range and fuel range is pretty bad. Clearly designed for combat, not hauling.

If anything, I'd say the T7 would need more capacity, not less, to justify itself balance-wise. An extra size 5 slot for 32 more cargo would still be not even close to what it trades off from the Python in the core module sizes (this is just the weight difference between an A-rated PP 5 for the T7 versus the size 7 one that the Python can use).

It would only need such a nerf if it were to be squeezed onto a medium pad.

As a large ship, it's in a pretty solid place; sure, it's nowhere near as good as the likes of the T-9 or most of the other large ships, but it's also 1/10th of the cost of most of them. There's nothing that lets you move cargo as efficiently anywhere near the T-7's price range, the real price you have to pay is being excluded from landing at outposts.

As a medium ship, it should instead be compared to the other high-end medium ships, specifically the Python as it is the only multirole that really pushes the limits of the medium pad (the Krait MkII is arguably more combat-focused and is also cheaper than the Python, so not a good point of reference for trading).

Compared to the Python, the T-7 currently has 16 tonnes more cargo capacity and better jump range because it saves weight on sensors which together make it pretty much objectively superior for almost any kind of trading. Sure, the Python has more weapons, stronger shields and a more powerful distributor, among other things, but none of those extra capabilities make any difference to a trader. Traders don't care about their weapons, they don't really care about their shield strength, they don't care about their distributor, it's all about the cargo capacity and jump range as they are what translate to profits. If the T-7 were to be made into a medium ship with its current statline, it would render the Python obsolete for trading as the T-7 would be overall better at trading and a much lower price point.

Sure, the Python is much stronger at combat, but it's also costs several times the T-7 once outfitting is accounted for - that's the multirole tax there and then. More importantly, having all the guns in the world doesn't matter when you are delivering goods. What's the point in having 3 large mounts if you never deploy weapons?

If an unnerfed T-7 were to be made into a medium, then any serious trader looking to maximise their credits/hour would use the T7 and the Python would be relegated to the quirky second-rate ship that people take out for a spin when they get bored of the T-7. Sure, some people might enjoy the Python and accept flying an objectively worse ship, but that's a matter of preference rather than balance.

However, with just a 16 tonne capacity nerf, the T7 would actually trade blows on equal footing with the Python. The Python could be refitted for combat after you are done trading, but you could afford both an FDL and a T-7 for the price of a Python; the Python has slightly better realspace manoeuvrability, but the T-7 has a slightly longer jump range; the Python is able to shoot down interdictors effectively, but the T-7 has amazing yaw performance (which really helps when avoiding interdictions). With just a 16 tonne capacity nerf, the question of "which is the better freighter?" would remain a point of debate, rather than unanimously being answered by the T-7.

The point of balance isn't to exclude things from top-tier viability, but to make sure that many things are operating at top-tier viability.
 
The only ship that should really be made a medium is the Orca.
There is absolutely no reason to have it a large pad ship and it could easily be done lore wise saying there was an error in the initial pad certification process

But yea T7 should get more cargo and not have it shrunk to fit medium pads. For example converting a size 5 into a size 6 internal and a size 3 into a size 4, getting 40 more tons capacity in the process.

Same should happen with the Clipper, at least add a size 5 or, to avoid increasing the number of internals, turn both size 4 internals into size 5 and one size 3 into a size 4. Adding as well 40t capacity.
 
Alternate suggestion, change 2 of the small hardpoints to medium hardpoints. That will make it much more useful than shrinking it to fit on medium pads. Landing at outposts isn't that important. Fitting medium hardpoints is very useful to make it a decent mining ship. I'd actually use it as my mining ship if i could fit medium mining lasers.
 
What is the point of the T-7 in the current game?

Well i never seen the point of any T-ships when i started the game at the end of 2018 so i completely skipped them. My then ship progression was:
Sidewinder > Cobra Mk3 > AspX > Krait mk2 > Python > Cutter

I tried some T-ships as an alternate gameplay on my Steam alt.
 
What is the point of the T-7 in the current game?

Someone will say 'stepping stone ship', then confidently swagger off into the distance before taking the time to wonder whether or not 'stepping stone ships' are ever a good idea in a +10 year live service game.

If Elite were a CRPG all classes other than Bard would become systemically useless after level 25, but people would still defend them because they used one once upon a time before they knew what they were doing, or used one recently as a deliberate handicap.
 
Medium pad size: 150m x 90m x 25m (estimated value for height)
Orca Size: 131.4m x 50.8m x 22.7m

It should damn fit (FAS is 22.8m high and it fits)

Interesting. Always seemed like it was longer than a medium pad (which is where i assume the issue is).
 
Someone will say 'stepping stone ship', then confidently swagger off into the distance before taking the time to wonder whether or not 'stepping stone ships' are ever a good idea in a +10 year live service game.

If Elite were a CRPG all classes other than Bard would become systemically useless after level 25, but people would still defend them because they used one once upon a time before they knew what they were doing, or used one recently as a deliberate handicap.

I guess what you mean is there should be no need for ships that are purely useful as stepping stones but should be useful in their own right?

I'd argue this to be the case with all ships, even the much maligned Asp Scout.

The problem comes when people compare to other ships, especially the Python, which is well beyond most ships in terms of overall usefulness and not a good ship to compare other ships to.

The Type 7 is good as a trade ship, its good as an exploration ship. Its a damn shame its not so good as a mining ship due to its lack of medium hardpoints.

The Type 7 is a good ship. Its just not an outstanding ship. Few ships are though. Its still a decently popular ship.

Take the inara stats for example:


1.5% of all ships tracked. Not bad considering some of the ships it is more popular than.

On a par with the Mamba and T10, above the Beluga, Keelback, Gunship, Orca, Challenger, DBS, FDS, Crusader, and others.

While we can't say the statistics are wholly representative, i think it shows the Type 7 is more popular than some people think and not as bad a choice as some people like to make out, especially those who compare it against the Python.
 
Alternate suggestion, change 2 of the small hardpoints to medium hardpoints. That will make it much more useful than shrinking it to fit on medium pads. Landing at outposts isn't that important. Fitting medium hardpoints is very useful to make it a decent mining ship. I'd actually use it as my mining ship if i could fit medium mining lasers.
I disagrees with outposts not being that important, if anything they are undervalued. anything that opens them up more in this game can only be a good thing and a medium T7 with more cargo would do that
 
I'd argue this to be the case with all ships, even the much maligned Asp Scout.
Then you'd be basically wrong, sorry. I can't see any way to come with you on that point.

Veteran players use less-good ships for whimsy, newer players use them because they don't engage with the game in a competitive or analytical way and don't really care. That's pretty much it.

I recently engineered myself a Keelback - I did this entirely because it's adorbs and has cute little flappy arms, I didn't do it because it will achieve any of Elite's systemic tasks on par with, let alone better than, any of the ships I already own. I don't think there should be perfect parity between ships, nor even that each ship should be 'best' at something, but I do think the game would be richer and more vibrant if players had some systemic reasons to use different tiers of ship. There are ways to solve it beyond pure stats, like adding content that would specifically benefit from using lower-profile hulls, or spaces that only small ships can enter... the other extreme would be to keep the 'stepping stones' but totally rework Elite with an actual functioning economy, but that seems like a tall order.
 
A rear hard point would probably be a change I'd like to see to my T7, and I guess it's role is as a budget high capacity trader as it's priced below the Python and , (obviously) the T9, not too fussed it's large only.

I dream of a Q-ship so that could totally be the T7's "thing"

If anything, the T6 cargo capacity should be increased as having multirole ships have a greater cargo capacity than a dedicated hauler seems (to me) to be very silly.
 
Last edited:
If anything, the T6 cargo capacity should be increased as having multirole ships have a greater cargo capacity than a dedicated hauler seems (to me) to be very silly.

T6 is also an oddity - probably as much as T7

Small pads: 66m x 55m (no idea on height)
T6 goes for: 48.4m x 27.2m x 15m and is classed as a medium, due to its height maybe?

While a DBX goes for: 45m x 27.3m x 13.6m, but maybe a VR user can try to check some small hangar height room when a DBX is parked inside

The designer at Lakon should be jailed.
It's like when you have 4.4m as bridge/tunnels height and you build a 4.7m lorry
 
Last edited:
It's because gleam needs to be balanced against utility, by Brabenic decree.

I would chose to go for lore explanations, as in:
bad paper work lead to problems during landing pad certification,
or
outpost were not deemed to be able to offer required amenities for luxury cabin passengers, (but this is really farfetched since the said passengers can simply stay in their cabins while the Orca is docked at an outpost)
 
I dream of a Q-ship so that could totally be the T7's "thing"

That's kind what the Keelback already is, a heavily modified and militarised T-6 for convoy duty or for operations in dangerous regions. The only problem it has is that it is immediately recognisable as a Keelback even in supercruise, although it would be quite interesting if FD made is so that closely related ships (like the Asps, the Dropships, the T9/10 etc) showed up as the the same type of ship in SC (possibly scanner dependent) so that pirates have to interdict them in order to find out precisely what ship type they are. It would be interesting for a would-be pirate to interdict a harmless T6 and for it then to actually be a fully equipped Keelback.

For the larger ships, the T-9 actually functions pretty well as an armed merchant as it has some reasonable firepower, a hangar bay, a solid hull and can mount a class 8 biweave. With all of the above combined plus a decent SLF pilot, they can genererally outmatch all but the most powerful ships.
 
I disagrees with outposts not being that important, if anything they are undervalued. anything that opens them up more in this game can only be a good thing and a medium T7 with more cargo would do that

What is so important about outposts?

Why do they need opening up more? There are many ships that can dock at them.
 
Back
Top Bottom