Victims of Piracy Support Group

[Simi Kusoni]

Its upsetting to people because to them, its no longer a game system/AI that they're playing against. Its a person that's cognizant of the fact that they are having their fun at the expense of yours. You can say that it makes no difference, but once a player is aware that someone else is trying to ruin their experience and forcing something they don't want on them - You're going to get a negative response. Against AI, they have no one to blame but their own play. They didn't manage to "beat the game" as it were. Against a person - Its different. They're going to lay all the blame on the pirate, because well... You're accountable and the game's AI isn't. It has no personality to speak of, so it can't be a target for frustration. When there's another person on the other side, it becomes personal.

This is what I mean by anger and bitterness, not everyone sees it the same way as you and it isn't just split into "pirates and normal people".

I'm just going to start by highlighting that I am more of a care bear than you you will ever be, I will tell you that now. In Eve I farmed and played the markets enough to own supercapitals, despite never using them in combat. If you don't believe me, check the forums and you will see a character called "Simi Kusoni" buying supercaps and supercap characters for the 3 person corp "Hello Kitty Fanclub". Funnily enough that wasn't much of a PvP corp (although I did kill people if they got in the way of me making money or accomplishing a goal).

Now at this stage you will undoubtedly go "hurr durr go play Eve then, this isn't the game for you", as I have seen that response countless times on these forums, but the truth is I think this game has potential. It is rare to see new multi-player (I draw short of calling ED an MMO) sandbox games as they're difficult to balance, and the flight mechanics are amazing in ED, they're great fun and I'd rather not give up on it so easily.

So yes, solo exists and should continue to exist. But the challenge in games like these? The "emergent gameplay" that gives modern sandbox games their long life and allows them to feel like a living, breathing universe is provided not by NPCs and scripted events but by multi-player interaction.

Your solution is to force everyone into solo for farming purposes, pirates included, and that isn't going to create the "living breathing universe" that FD intended. Those kind of worlds aren't constructed out of badly hashed together NPC scripts and mission arcs, but by introducing a reason for player interaction and mechanics by which those interactions can gain some kind of structure.

Eventually in games like that achieving great wealth (or whatever else your personal ambitions are) becomes a satisfying goal because you've achieved it despite great obstacles, not some lousy AI you can fly circles around but real people with access to the same resources as yourself.

I don't really have any solutions, FD are in a sticky position when it comes to action they can take on the game. But I think the above is a fair vision for the open aspect of the game, and I don't think NPC piracy really adds anything of worth other than another meaningless grind that makes the game even more dull for the PvE pilots among us who enjoy a challenge.

 

[Exluna]

Your solution is to force everyone into solo for farming purposes, pirates included, and that isn't going to create the "living breathing universe" that FD intended. Those kind of worlds aren't constructed out of badly hashed together NPC scripts and mission arcs, but by introducing a reason for player interaction and mechanics by which those interactions can gain some kind of structure.

Eventually in games like that achieving great wealth (or whatever else your personal ambitions are) becomes a satisfying goal because you've achieved it despite great obstacles, not some lousy AI you can fly circles around but real people with access to the same resources as yourself.

I don't really have any solutions, FD are in a sticky position when it comes to action they can take on the game. But I think the above is a fair vision for the open aspect of the game, and I don't think NPC piracy really adds anything of worth other than another meaningless grind that makes the game even more dull for the PvE pilots among us who enjoy a challenge.

My solution isn't to force anything, its to give them the choice. I didn't mention that open play has to go away, but give pirates the same choices that traders have. Give them parity. The other solution (which will definitely cause a lot of uproar) is to force Open and do away with Solo completely. This isn't something that FD is willing to do. Yet another solution - Separate Open and Solo... Also from what I've read, something that FD isn't willing to do. So my suggestion while not ideal, seems to me at first glance, the only one that will actually work within the given restrictions of what FD intends for the game.

I agree, creating meaningful player interaction is the key, and FD is in a sticky situation right now. How do you make piracy meaningful for the pirate and also the pirated? Tis difficult. So right now they side with the pirated. I'm merely suggesting that there be some kind of parity. If traders can pursue their goals in solo as well as open, then pirates should be able to as well. The choice of playing in open then becomes just that... A choice, that a player willingly makes with all the consequences and meaning behind it. Right now traders have choice. Pirates do not.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Great little story.

Stick with Open Play... is good.

 

[Exluna]

Heh here's a radical idea - Make cargo insurance actually pay out more than the price of goods, with premiums that traders pay each time they dock at a starport and buy goods. . They'll WANT to be pirated! Yes its not ideal - The idea is open to abuse by players setting up gains as pirates and traders. But make the gains miniscule instead of massive, and find a way to hold players accountable for insurance fraud. Its not perfect... But hey the world works the same way. Art imitates life and all that malarkey.

 

[Mortifa]

I understand your frustration with him opening fire so quickly but you need to look at it through the pirates eyes before you condemn them for it. Traders can jump way too quick after interdicition so for a pirate to make sure he can take your shields and drives down before you jump they must act quickly. Best thing to do when a pirate pulls you out of supercruise is to just stop. The worst thing to do is boost or charge fsd. After stopping chat with a bit of role playing. Most decent pirates I know pirate for the pvp interaction and role playing not to cause players grief. If you stop and give the pirate cargo most will let you go. If they don't they are not real pirates. Pirates need traders and the last thing a pirate wants to do is run off all the traders.

As long as the person is in the role-playing mode.

 

[Tall Paul]

If you are carrying around 200 tonnes of palladium in open play then it is probably a good idea to hire some fighter support.

 

[Executive]

Best thing to do when a pirate pulls you out of supercruise is to just stop. The worst thing to do is boost or charge fsd. After stopping chat with a bit of role playing. Most decent pirates I know pirate for the pvp interaction and role playing not to cause players grief. If you stop and give the pirate cargo most will let you go. If they don't they are not real pirates. Pirates need traders and the last thing a pirate wants to do is run off all the traders.

May you drown in reputation.
Finally someone gets it.
Question is, will the (most) traders ever get it? :/

 

[Bortas]

...Imperial Clipper...Drop 30t of cargo or I will destroy you... thought about it too long... he opened fire... by the time I jumped I was down to 58% hull... dumped my 1200 cr worth of cargo.

That story sounds too familiar to be a coincident... but even if it was, the point remains the same, I guess... however, if that happened a few days ago, it was probably me, who pirated you

So let me tell you something about your favorite pirate's point of view:

I interdicted you, and the first thing I saw, was you boosting away (=attempting to flee). I though about opening fire right away, but made my demands anyway and give you a bit of time to react to them, because I didn't want to be mistaken for a psychopath. What you probably forget to tell us, is that I asked you to stop your engines before anything else, so when I didn't see your reverse thrusters firing, I decided it was time to attack. It was already too late, though, I couldn't take your engines out, before you managed to jump. I just got lucky to being able to pull you out again, but let's talk about what we both can learn from the event:

What I learned: If the interdictee boosts and doesn't stop his ship after a few seconds, don't waste your time letting him think about your demands... shoot! Repeat your demands, _after_ his engines are taken out.

What you could have learned: If you are interdicted and your interdictor demands you to cut your engines... do it. Don't go to your panels, don't open the chat window... just stop your ship to show the pirate you are willing to cooperate. This takes the fuss out of the situation. After that is done, you have time to chat. If you had stopped your ship and gave me time to scan you, guess what would have happened... after realizing you weren't carrying anything of value, I would have let you leave WITH your cargo and without scratching your ship's paint

 

[Tall Paul]

NEED FIGHTER SUPPORT????

Skilled Cobra pilot available for escort runs, mining security. Highly competitive rates.

Contact Cmdr Tall Paul for further details.

 

[AdmiralS]

NEED FIGHTER SUPPORT????

Skilled Cobra pilot available for escort runs, mining security. Highly competitive rates.

Contact Cmdr Tall Paul for further details.

Will you protect me from other competing pirates, bounty hunters and cops?

If you assist in cargo acquisition there's a bonus for ye.

 

[kislany]

"Victims of piracy support group"

Drat, I thought this is the place to join up...

 

[scorpyon]

This is never going to go away until FD fix the problem with the whole "forced PvP" thing in ED.
Not everyone wants PvP all the time, no matter what.

A simple PvP enabled flag would do wonders for this. It works perfectly well in other games.

Aside from that, the pirate had no reason to open fire on you. He would have seen "Frame Shift Charge Detected" if you decided to jump away, so the only other option is that he was being a jerk for no reason. Some pirates will cry about logoffskis, but face it - unless they are in an Eagle/similar and you're likely to kill them in a couple of seconds, then this is no excuse. They're going to get away anyway.

 

[Bortas]

This is never going to go away until FD fix the problem with the whole "forced PvP" thing in ED.
Not everyone wants PvP all the time, no matter what.

A simple PvP enabled flag would do wonders for this. It works perfectly well in other games.

It's called solo mode in ED. Playing open with a PvP disabled flag would really be game-braking... I'd rather not see those players at all (them being in solo) than seeing players that are magically invulnerable to attacks.

Aside from that, the pirate had no reason to open fire on you. He would have seen "Frame Shift Charge Detected" if you decided to jump away, so the only other option is that he was being a jerk for no reason.

Did you read my post? When you get a "Frameshift Charge Detected" it is too late... even in the described case it was obviously already too late to attack, since he managed to get away.

Attacking a fleeing trader who doesn't comply to a pirate's demands can hardly be described as "being a jerk for no reason".

 

[Tall Paul]

Will you protect me from other competing pirates, bounty hunters and cops?

If you assist in cargo acquisition there's a bonus for ye.

Just add me in game. I'm around the Lave area. I play at around 7pm to 10pm UK time most evenings.

 

[Majinvash]

I have read the threads about piracy as a legitimate career choice and, for the most part, I have agreed with the philosophy that ED needs all types of players to create the atmosphere of a real living society in space with all the beauty, wonder, violence and horror of the real world.
I have played as a trader, an explorer, a bounty hunter and a soldier and have lost myself in these roles as my imagination feeds on the images created by the game.
Occasionally on my travels, I have come across other players in remote places and greeted them with a "g'day" and a "fly safe" and moved along feeling like it was a small universe after all.
On occasion I have been pulled out of a frameshift daydream by AI pirates and depending on what ship I am flying I would run or fight and be happy to escaped with cargo or bounty with no ill effect.
Being an Elite fan since the old BBC version in 1984 I decided I should make the pilgrimage to Lave at least once. Last stop on the way was Diso where I docked to refuel and picked up 4 tonnes (was flying my cobra) of rare goods for about 300 cr each. I jump to Lave and within 30 seconds of arriving I get interdicted. As per usual I throttle back for an easy exit and first thing I do on exit is 4 pips to engines and hit the booster to get a little space while I decide next course of action. I see that my attacker is a human pilot in an Imperial Clipper. First time but that's ok I have nothing of value. I'm about to open the chat window for the usual "g'day" then the demand comes " Drop 30t of cargo or I will destroy you" . HUH!? WHA!? I don't have any cargo of value what do I do. This has never happened to me before. I know I have easily destroy elite AI clippers but this is a human.
I must have thought about it too long (about 10 seconds by my reckoning) and suddenly he opened fire. At least give me long enough to get to the cargo window or type a reply for crying out loud.
At the first shot my shields collapsed ..there's no way I could take this guy. I hit the booster and started to charge up the FSD. My heat went through the roof and not only was this guy gaining on me and chewing away at my hull but the heat was eating away from the inside. I took forever for the FSD to charge up and by the time I jumped I was down to 58% hull.
"Whew" I thought " I got away" ...but no a few seconds later the alarms went off again and this time I fought like a marlin but he managed to pull me out of frameshift again. This time I knew I couldn't fight. I went straight to the cargo bay and dumped my 1200 cr worth of cargo.
My assailant quipped me with some rhetorical politeness that made my skin crawl and I sent back a resigned "Whatever".
I jumped away and docked in Lave and repaired about 12000cr worth of damage.
I sat there for ages and all I could think was "What a sad experience that was".
This cad had just attacked me.
I didn't feel the frustration that I feel when my son snipers me at the spawn point 20 times in a row in halo. I didn't feel the disappointment that I feel when I finally succumb to 7 better players in AOE. These feelings pass within seconds and I go back for another game.
I had come to Lave as a pilgrimage. I was feeling nostalgic, happy, cruising through the galaxy hurting nothing and nobody and I was snapped out of it by someone who thinks it is OK to take what others have, what others have worked for. I felt like I had been mugged ..not my character ..me ..violated.
I had thought before about whether pirating was something I should try but now I know that I never will. I don't want to make other players feel like this ..it is just wrong.
Yeah I know all the pirates are screaming "what I wuss. why don't you go to Mobius or solo" but as Nietzsche : "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger".

I will stay in open as I always have but I will not hesitate again, next time I WILL kill you. You will not get one scrap of my cargo even if I have to jettison and destroy it myself. My mission now is pirates, human pirates. I am coming for you.

A Clipper, last night in the Lave area you say? Interesting.

But did your heart not beat slight faster as you tried to get away, was there a slight feeling of dread knowing that you might get boiled up?
That is feeling alive in what can be a VERY safe game.

The sort of thing you just don't get from NPC hunting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymm61OgquAU

Majinvash

 

[SeregDuin]

That story sounds too familiar to be a coincident... but even if it was, the point remains the same, I guess... however, if that happened a few days ago, it was probably me, who pirated you

So let me tell you something about your favorite pirate's point of view:

I interdicted you, and the first thing I saw, was you boosting away (=attempting to flee). I though about opening fire right away, but made my demands anyway and give you a bit of time to react to them, because I didn't want to be mistaken for a psychopath. What you probably forget to tell us, is that I asked you to stop your engines before anything else, so when I didn't see your reverse thrusters firing, I decided it was time to attack. It was already too late, though, I couldn't take your engines out, before you managed to jump. I just got lucky to being able to pull you out again, but let's talk about what we both can learn from the event:

What I learned: If the interdictee boosts and doesn't stop his ship after a few seconds, don't waste your time letting him think about your demands... shoot! Repeat your demands, _after_ his engines are taken out.

What you could have learned: If you are interdicted and your interdictor demands you to cut your engines... do it. Don't go to your panels, don't open the chat window... just stop your ship to show the pirate you are willing to cooperate. This takes the fuss out of the situation. After that is done, you have time to chat. If you had stopped your ship and gave me time to scan you, guess what would have happened... after realizing you weren't carrying anything of value, I would have let you leave WITH your cargo and without scratching your ship's paint

Ok . I think I have get to some things straight. First I did not make this post to complain about game mechanics. I didn't post to start an argument about open vs solo or crime and punishment. And I certainly did not post to name or shame anyone in particular. I don't in all honesty believe that what the pirate did was wrong in the context of the game (although at the time I certainly thought that it wasn't fair that someone could rob me and come close to destroying my ship and I wasn't allowed to scream obscenities back it him).
The purpose of the post was to tell a story. To put down in words what happened and how I felt at the time and what I resolved to do about it in the future.
Yes I panicked ..it was my first time pirated by a human. Yes I made mistakes ..I probably should have cut my engines and then tried to chat back but I really didn't know what to expect.. if someone is willing to rob you are they just as willing to murder you? I don't know.
Yes I have learned from them. Maybe not what the pirate would like me to have learned, but learned none the less.
I'm not rage quitting, I'm not running to solo, I'm not demanding that this or that or other should be changed to hobble who or whatever.
I DO believe that pirates should be stopped but stopped by players with ships and guns and determination, not by changing code to make the game easier.

And I just want to say this last thing ..being polite to me while you are robbing me just makes me angrier and I'm getting pretty old so angrier is something that I probably shouldn't be.

 

[SeregDuin]

LOL I just read how the moderators cleaned up my post. I like it.
Cad is a good word for a pirate and sad experience it certainly was . Thank you Mr moderator.

 

[Quineloe]

OP, how the hell do you think should piracy work?

Ask for cargo nicely, and when denied move on to the next "target"?

Just exactly what's a pirate player supposed to do?


BTW, "cad" is still in your post, something else was deleted

 

[scorpyon]

Exactly that. Demand cargo an wait for a response. If the other player refuses then fair game.
But opening fire in 5 seconds flat while the trader is deperately trying to work out the comms system to reply is poor form.

Also, when you frop out of SC, your ships thrusters are automatically set and tour ship is moving. It makes no difference to jumping to SC whether you are moving or stationary. This is the worst 'excuse' for opening fire on someone that I'v ever heard. Tou can tell when someone activates their FSD when you have them targetted easy enough.

 

[Quineloe]

It makes sense to shoot them once right away to put them into combat so they can't just escape -> exit.