[Video] Griefing : is there a problem?!

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So no sources? Only baseless conjectures then...

it probaly went down like this ' Hi fellow explorer, wanna team up for a while'
explorer: 'Sure' not being aware of the person they are talking to.

...and then when he has the trust of the Victim, bam :) I know this seems like guess work, but you can watch Mr B pull this sort of stunt on his own stream :p

I though he was okay, that people who said things about him where just crying (most cases, yes they are) then i saw some of the griefing tactics he like to use, especially in Multi crew (to use the trust of an open ship, with the intent to allow another player to help you, and then to turn on them in your SLF, just to upset them - this is the definition of griefing)... I lost all respect for him at that point. Till i saw him doing this, i though he was good at his craft, and just having fun how he can. (i don't have any hate for the fella, but we don't have to like everyone :p or find there actions agreeable)

See, i don't hate gankers, PvPers and out right psychos. I do take issue when they pretending its for some complex reason, and not just salt (referring to just a select few, some admit it :p)... Abusing system in game to get an easy kill and abusing trust given by naive commanders. Mr B can't process the concept of charitable behaviour, so, to see someone willing to trust a stranger even open up a ship to them, this is seen as stupidity in the eye of Mr B and all is 'just and fair', to teach them a lesson. (Not being nasty here, it just the way some people minds are, helps if we can understand others, and not get hateful)

Important: I hope Mr B dose not see this as a personal attack, i would not want that to be the case, and if so i will remove my post. but i can't explain the difference in what people expect form the game and how they go about it without a good case study, and you know you are by-far the most interesting case :)
 
this is the definition of griefing)...)[/I]

I agree with most of your post, but how is that the definition of griefing? It is completely allowed, Cmdrs should not be so trusting..


Two scenarios. Let's pretend this game had a bit more depth..


A. I arrive at a station, ask a Cmdr for a ride to Shinrata to pick up my ship, whilst the Cmdr is flying I shoot him in the back of the head and steal the ship. Not Griefing..

B. I sit on a landing pad, find a glitch in the game where nobody is able to get a shot at me (including station security) I proceed to open fire on and destroy any incoming ships trying to land, nobody can do anything until the devs forcibly kick me from the game and ban me = Griefing
 
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There doesn't have to be a reason at all.
That much is without question.

I suggest you stop acting like those subjective bars apply to anyone.

you post a lot for someone that knows very little... i like it :)

Now, what do we here from the people crying when they get blown up? They don't understand why someone would do that... after all they could not fight back nor had anything useful.
I know me explain why spoils the fun a little for the salt miners, as understanding can help easy conflict.. but i'm gonna try anyways.

Normally the crybaby has a mind set of justification/reason and empathy .. on the other side we have Logical and intellectual ,and often very smart , but no empathy. One of the reasones people are getting so upset, and even saying terrible things to the gankers is... they are applying their own mindset to what just happened, and not seeing it from the ganker's side... Would be nice if the ganker side could understand the crybabies, but that's nearly impossible , apart from on an intellectual level, then logic just bypasses that :) So its upto the crybabies to understand the ganker.

I'm just explaining the motives, but you carry on , on your mission of what ever it is, i'm stating to find you amusing :)
 
I agree with most of your post, but how is that the definition of griefing? It is completely allowed, Cmdrs should not be so trusting..


Two scenarios. Let's pretend this game had a bit more depth..


A. I arrive at a station, ask a Cmdr for a ride to Shinrata to pick up my ship, whilst the Cmdr is flying I shoot him in the back of the head and steal the ship. Not Griefing..

B. I sit on a landing pad, find a glitch in the game where nobody is able to get a shot at me (including station security) I proceed to open fire on and destroy any incoming ships trying to land, nobody can do anything until the devs forcibly kick me from the game and ban me = Griefing

i think you are confusing Griefing with cheating or exploting to upset some one... but that's not what it is.

at the risk of public shaming, for once, i think the Wiki put it well \/

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in intended or unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game penalties.
 
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Pretty Sure Harry just streamed it a short while ago

twitch.tv/besieger1

I'm talking about this part: " there are far greater threats out in the black than me or any other PVPer... "

I already mentioned that PvP encounters are predictable since they all happen in or in the vicinity of waypoints which is completely predictable.
 
you post a lot for someone that knows very little... i like it :)

Considering I am correcting you on a factual matter, the evidence at hand suggests something very different.


Now, what do we here from the people crying when they get blown up? They don't understand why someone would do that... after all they could not fight back nor had anything useful.
I know me explain why spoils the fun a little for the salt miners, as understanding can help easy conflict.. but i'm gonna try anyways.

I suggest not caring about "why" is the best approach, since "why" isn't relevant.


Normally the crybaby has a mind set of justification/reason and empathy .. on the other side we have Logical and intellectual ,and often very smart , but no empathy. One of the reasones people are getting so upset, and even saying terrible things to the gankers is... they are applying their own mindset to what just happened, and not seeing it from the ganker's side... Would be nice if the ganker side could understand the crybabies, but that's nearly impossible , apart from on an intellectual level, then logic just bypasses that :) So its upto the crybabies to understand the ganker.

I'm just explaining the motives, but you carry on , on your mission of what ever it is, i'm stating to find you amusing :)




You aren't a mind reader.
I really, simply don't care why.

If you got blown up, you got blown up.
"Why" doesn't change anything.
 
i think you are confusing Griefing with cheating or exploting to upset some one... but that's not what it is.

at the risk of public shaming, for once, i think the Wiki put it well \/

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in intended or unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game penalties.

Ah great, wiki, so you are telling me if I decide to kill a player in open that doesn't want to be killed, I am considered a griefer? You are kinda making me want to go and kill some randoms. You log into open, trust everyone/don't prepare for some unwanted eventualities, you are gonna get burned one day..

There is nothing that he did in your description that allows him to 'win' in the game, he took a course of action that was within the rules, it was up to that trusting cmdr to deal with it. Try reporting it to devs, they will tell you where to go...

It is definitely bad faith, or in my words a (insert word) move, but it is completely allowable.

If they ever implement hijacking in this game I can't even imagine what this forum would turn into..
 
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i think you are confusing Griefing with cheating or exploting to upset some one... but that's not what it is.

at the risk of public shaming, for once, i think the Wiki put it well \/

A griefer or bad faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling), using aspects of the game in intended or unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2] This creates a strong division between griefing and cheating, since cheating is done with intent of winning the game and thus is discouraged by in-game penalties.


You are contradicting yourself there.
Killing other players "for no reason at all" is an intended feature/gameplay aspect.
 
Considering I am correcting you on a factual matter, the evidence at hand suggests something very different.




I suggest not caring about "why" is the best approach, since "why" isn't relevant.







You aren't a mind reader.
I really, simply don't care why.

If you got blown up, you got blown up.
"Why" doesn't change anything.

why do you keep telling me dis? I know your view point, you don't care why :) but i do... and that's what important.

To be clear, i get your point of view, but we have to agree to disagree. It may be down to the mind set issue i raised :) so there is not way i can explain it to you.

and.. who knows, maybe a am a mind reader.. but only part time and some weekends ... that's a very different topic :p

---
You are contradicting yourself there.
Killing other players "for no reason at all" is an intended feature/gameplay aspect.

and i see you live post to post and not in the context of the thread as a whole... oh well
 
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why do you keep telling me dis? I know your view point, you don't care why :) but i do... and that's what important.

To be clear, i get your point of view, but we have to agree to disagree. It may be down to the mind set issue i raised :) so there is not way i can explain it to you.

and.. who knows, maybe a am a mind reader.. but only part time and some weekends ... that's a very different topic :p

---


and i see you live post to post and not in the context of the thread as a whole... oh well



It's not my viewpoint, it's objective fact.

You keep trying to make up false contexts, and I'm just going to keep pointing out how they are not relevant.

It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all.
Suggesting otherwise is simply dishonesty on your part.

And I DO know you are not a mind reader because I have a firm grasp on the material, objective world we live in.
 
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Well none of those points apply to a PVP ganker type as we always have notoriety and whats the point of refueling if you have a 2Ton tank?

Well, if you took more fuel with you, you wouldn't need to call the fuel rats so often. :p

Pretty Sure Harry just streamed it a short while ago

twitch.tv/besieger1

Did he also stream how he ran out of fuel and was rescued by some fuel rats today? [big grin]
 
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Ah great, wiki, so you are telling me if I decide to kill a player in open that doesn't want to be killed, I am considered a griefer? You are kinda making me want to go and kill some randoms. You log into open, trust everyone/don't prepare for some unwanted eventualities, you are gonna get burned one day..

There is nothing that he did in your description that allows him to 'win' in the game, he took a course of action that was within the rules, it was up to that trusting cmdr to deal with it. Try reporting it to devs, they will tell you where to go...

It is definitely bad faith, or in my words a (insert word) move, but it is completely allowable.

If they ever implement hijacking in this game I can't even imagine what this forum would turn into..

''Ah great, wiki, so you are telling me if I decide to kill a player in open that doesn't want to be killed, I am considered a griefer?''
Answer: no, not what i'm telling you at all

- what i did say was '... then i saw some of the griefing tactics he like to use, especially in Multi crew (to use the trust of an open ship, with the intent to allow another player to help you, and then to turn on them in your SLF, just to upset them - this is the definition of griefing).''

its important that read what i said not what you think i'm implying. I'm not being snarky here, its just helps when people want to discuss something, after all you may have a point ,somewhere, if we are all on the same page :)

i also said '..., i don't hate gankers, PvPers and out right psychos' this would include random player killing.

What is griefing is...

-someone open their ship for crew (a charitable action, silly people), we know the intention is not to have someone one join it and attack them. Don't need to be a mind reader to work that one out.
-But someone then joins and does just that, because they can, the game lets them, and i hope it always will... i hate it when games get so locked down because of a few bad apples.
-The griefing part is, the griefer joining with the intent of upsetting a player, who they know had the intent of corporation with another player... Doesn't matter if the game allows it or not. doesn't matter if you think they should know better, you know that the didn't offer it open to be shot at.
-The option of the host/ship owner is to boot the griefer and hope it doesn't happen again. Only intent of this action was to upset.

Flying around and killing people (Without the need for a reason <put that in there for my friend) would not be griefing, maybe there is a misunderstanding of what people expect from other players, but it not as if it was a game mechanic designed solely for cooperation,.. You don't know if killing some one at random will upset them, seen plenty just get on with things... but joining a crew to attack the host is a knowing act .

I hope that helps clear things up a little :)
 
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It's not my viewpoint, it's objective fact.

You keep trying to make up false contexts, and I'm just going to keep pointing out how they are not relevant.

It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all.
Suggesting otherwise is simply dishonesty on your part.

And I DO know you are not a mind reader because I have a firm grasp on the material, objective world we live in.

BINGO!

''It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all.
Suggesting otherwise is simply dishonesty on your part.@@

And if you read what im saying, im not saying what you think i am... ty for finally expressing in a clear way what you think i'm saying :)
Now we can agree, It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all. would not, nor have disagreed with that viewpoint ... where do we go from here? see a movie or something?
 
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His reply was:

"Griefers... just block them and you wont see them anymore."

I thought this strange, firstly since he was obviously in Open and obivously participating in the Powerplay, so being interdicted/assaulted/harassed/killed by the enemy isn't 'grief', it's just part of 'the game you bought'.

The whole idea of griefers has reached the point where anyone firing on another CMDR is labelled as a griefer, and that appears to be the starting mindset for new CMDRs. For an online-multiplayer with guns attached, and a multi-faceted narrative that makes very good use of them, this is an incredibly weird situation.

Then there's the 'block button'... who knew? And why don't more of you PvE'ers make use of it instead of filling the forums with the same inane arguments about C&P?

The situation you describe is a prime reason why blocking shouldn't affect instancing.

Blocking people who are playing the game as intended so that one can attempt to leverage the benefits of Open without having to deal with the consequences is far more harmful than the behavior that prompts these blocks.

What I think FDev should implement is a forced pledge. This 'No Faction' nonsense simply leaves CMDRs under the false impression that they can ignore the rest of the galaxy and be left to their own devices.

Wouldn't be a solution to anything, and would be profoundly annoying.

My CMDR would never voluntarily pledge to any power and making it mandatory would perforce relegate him to 5th columnist/insurrectionist.

It's bad enough that Pilot's Federation membership is mandatory.

I'd agree... that asymmetry was part of a larger sentence. Asymmetry + No in-universe reason for the attack + No warning/communication (or insults)

The issue with distinguishing a case of griefing from something else is that the in-game rationale for the attack is often not obvious, and may well preclude warnings or communications.

Jumpgate suffered from a serious case of griefing and there wasn’t a solo mode or pvt group to escape to, so newbies just got seal clubbed and it got the rep as a player killer game. The upshot was that nobody wanted to join and player numbers dwindled until it died.

Jumpgate was hands down the best MMO I've ever played, with some of the most widespread and convincing RP I've seen in any venue. It wasn't unrestricted PvP that resulted in dwindling player numbers. Indeed, those in favor of unrestricted PvP were it's core audience...couldn't be any other way in a game that essentially had no NPCs that had player character factions pitted to oppose each other.

Griefing also wasn't much of an issue. Everyone knew the whole economy, including their personal access to equipment, was player driven and random acts of wanton violence simply harmed everyone. While there was a lot of player character on player character violence, virtually all that I saw, even when my character was the victim, was well within the bounds of credible in-game conduct, with in-game reasoning backing it up.

1. Players who Min/Max really only have only themselves to blame.

Blame for what?

I min/max in games for the same reasons I do in real life, and I consider it the optimal way to extract the maximal amount of weal with the minimal amount of woe, from any conceivable situation.

I remember when that applied to PvP ships which got stuck in systems after the owners undersized their FSDs and replaced their fuel-scoops with yet another HRP and then went out and gained a Wanted tag.
They only had themselves to blame for minmaxing their ships and yet bleating about it to FDev resulted in it getting changed.

That's not an example of min/maxing. Just a lack of foresight resulting in extreme overspecialization, to the detriment of the goal at hand (you can't shoot down CMDRs if you cannot get back to where they are).

A truly min/maxed setup would have taking the possibility of being trapped into account, and included an FSD capable of leaving the system.

Our. Game.

Not mine, nor yours or someone else's, when in open. Not even when in Solo or PG, because everything ties into BGS and maybe PP in the end

The fundamental premise that underlies essentially all of my arguments for equality of opportunity and universal applicability of game mechanisms and rules.

I already mentioned that PvP encounters are predictable since they all happen in or in the vicinity of waypoints which is completely predictable.

This is false.

The overwhelming majority of PvP encounters happen in the vicinity of known points of interests, but this is by no means all of them. There is a non-zero chance of encountering other CMDRs in the middle of nowhere, and a non-zero chance for those CMDRs to be hostile.

I've certainly encountered CMDRs not anywhere near any waypoints, populated systems, or tourist attractions, and some of them likely would have attacked if they thought they would have had the upper hand.
 
You are contradicting yourself there.
Killing other players "for no reason at all" is an intended feature/gameplay aspect.

A shame such killing still hasn't quite got enough in-game repercussions though. The Pilots Federation seems to care little about what its members get up to.

:D S
 
BINGO!

''It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all.
Suggesting otherwise is simply dishonesty on your part.@@

And if you read what im saying, im not saying what you think i am... ty for finally expressing in a clear way what you think i'm saying :)
Now we can agree, It's perfectly OK to kill Cmdrs for no reason at all. would not, nor have disagreed with that viewpoint ... where do we go from here? see a movie or something?



The corollary is the reasons you want to focus on aren't relevant.

The definition you supplied doesn't support your position.
 
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