Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements

[vindicator jones]

Well, I was about to post the video tonight, but found that a few people have beaten me to it! lol...

Glad that the video is resonating positively with most commanders. Thanks for the support everyone!

 

[Weps]

The problem nobody seems to get is that if murder has severe and long lasting consequences in the way most of you guys (VJ, for instance), think it should, murder will become nigh impossible, and that would cut the balls right off a massive section of possible gameplay options

Which is what exactly? What exact gameplay elements are to be experienced when you're a roving murdering psychopath?

For the record, I would expect and karma + C&P system, or whatever you want to call it, to keep the game's established jurisdiction system. It has always been the intention of the developers to allow players to be heroes for one side and war criminals for the other. Meaning that, if you do get long lasting consequences for going on a murder spree, they should be confined to a minor jurisdiction, or a group of jurisdictions, or a major faction at most.

It's perfectly fine to have areas of space which want you and your credits wiped. "I won't go there, those guys want my neck". But if you decide to p*ss off the entire galaxy by being a criminal EVERYWHERE, then you should accept what's coming to you.

 

[Han_Zen]

The problem nobody seems to get is that if murder has severe and long lasting consequences in the way most of you guys (VJ, for instance), think it should, murder will become nigh impossible, and that would cut the balls right off a massive section of possible gameplay options, not just the ganking that makes everybody so hysterical. I'm confident that we don't have C&P system yet just for that reason: because most systems that allowed for murder and mayhem to be at all possible are simply not going to provide enough relief for those of you so desperate for it. And if murder is rendered impossible outside of Anarchy systems (thanks VJ for outlining where PvPers are allowed to fly) and PvPers are forced to dwell there because of some sort of persistent karma system, that isn't going to be any fun, either.

If C&P is too draconian it will terminate all content related to non consensual violence. The recent conflict in Xihe for example wouldn't be happening, and that would be a shame, because that's some phenomenal gameplay right there.

I thought VJ made sense in the part of his video where he talked about an ingame CQC. I would like to see that.

I think it's the right way, but it needs to be much more graded. Only very rich, high sec. systems should have law enforcement to make murder 'impossible'. We have most of the rules in place already. The NPCs just don't have the tools to enforce it.

Give the NPCs the tools for the job and make the criminal status persistent, but with a cool down effect. I don't think we need much more?

 

[NeilF]

The problem nobody seems to get is that if murder has severe and long lasting consequences in the way most of you guys (VJ, for instance), think it should, murder will become nigh impossible, and that would cut the balls right off a massive section of possible gameplay options, not just the ganking that makes everybody so hysterical.

I'm not disagreeing with your thought process, but simply interested in how you deem the current PvP gameplay offered in ED as being a "massive section of possible gameplay options"?

Consider PvP (destruction) in ED for a moment... Would you disagree that it basically falls into one of the following four categories?
1) Mindless destruction - Interdicting anyone/everyone and blowing them up.
2) Spotting Wanted CMDRs and attacking.
3) Piracy ending in the pirate destroying the victim.
4) People/groups organising a PvP session.
Have I missed anything?

Let's first of all acknowledge just how vapid and limited all that is in truth. Where can I sign up to a military action to go and do something with a group of my friends knowing I'll be facing enemy CMDRs? How/where can I attack/defend a location or convoy etc? How/where can I enforce or break a blockade around a station? Where does the game orchestrate/offer anything constructive as regards PvP? In truth it doesn't... PvP in ED at the moment is a bunch of super thin mechanics which at the moment CMDRs are just having to "make the most of"...

Now let's move onto what it does offer, and how penalising mindless destruction would affect it?
1) Mindless destruction is probably one of the main, if not the main avenue of PvP in ED I'd suggest, and in truth I think that's an embarrassement to the game. CMDRs interdicting other CMDRs who at the time are not interested in PvP and most likely are not even outfittted for it, just to blow them up for no ingame reason? This needs to be reduced and penalised. It damages the game... IMHO the only reason it's so common is because there is basically no other way to easily do PvP...
2) Not affected.
3) Piracy needs some love, and IMHO should not revolved around the destruction of another player, but instead stealing from them. So some attention would side step any issue IMHO. See NOTE 1 below...
4) Not affected. They'd just set their report crimes off!

So I would see penalising mindless destruction as having a +ve overall outcome.

Now, if FD could offer PvP in other guises, through orchestrated gameplay, or at least some in game arenas, that would help a lot too!



NOTE 1: I see an interesting possibility being, if piracy is improved enough such that a CMDR can improve his piracy reputation enough (though steeling cargo, not destroying CMDRs), and gain access to new pirate bases etc, and better black markets and missions, ultimately he may even get Pilot Federation assissation missions. These would be completely controlled by FD and be at appropriate location and not negatively affect the CMDRs standing. As such FD could (to some degree) control the amount of "mindless destruction" even taking place, and where it takes place...

- - - Updated - - -

I think it's the right way, but it needs to be much more graded. Only very rich, high sec. systems should have law enforcement to make murder 'impossible'. We have most of the rules in place already. The NPCs just don't have the tools to enforce it.

Give the NPCs the tools for the job and make the criminal status persistent, but with a cool down effect. I don't think we need much more?

While I agree with this, I do think there's something fundamentally wrong in griefers and gankers hanging around the latest exploration discovery, knowing they can dish out their griefing and the game will basically ingore it? Isn't this kind of what we're trying to address?

 

[Grey Wolfe]

I'm confident that we don't have C&P system yet just for that reason: because most systems that allowed for murder and mayhem to be at all possible are simply not going to provide enough relief for those of you so desperate for it. And if murder is rendered impossible outside of Anarchy systems (thanks VJ for outlining where PvPers are allowed to fly) and PvPers are forced to dwell there because of some sort of persistent karma system, that isn't going to be any fun, either.

If C&P is too draconian it will terminate all content related to non consensual violence. The recent conflict in Xihe for example wouldn't be happening, and that would be a shame, because that's some phenomenal gameplay right there.

... well an effective C&P system would naturally need to be carefully balanced - strong enough to act as a deterrent, but not so enduring that you can't escape any past transgressions. Ultimately though, there HAS to be consequences for extreme actions.

The bubble has several hundred thousand systems in it, there is more than enough space for everyone. If you're heavily wanted in one place, go to another. If a specific system is important to you or your operation - behave yourself in it. As VJ pointed out, it does seem strange that you can commit a crime right next to a station and then immediately be granted docking permission.

I don't feel that any reasoned argument out there (VJ's included) advocates extreme action towards any one player group. If CMDRs want to engage in hardcore PvP and really go after live kills then so be it, but let them make the choice in the knowledge that they don't operate under total immunity.

Regardless of trying to prevent griefing and ganking, having substantial, tangible differences between high security and anarchy systems for example just makes for better more dynamic gameplay rather than every location being pretty much the same as the next. This then allows the PvEers to make strategic choices of their own to try and avoid the PvP experience.

 

[Julio Montega]

I think it's the right way, but it needs to be much more graded. Only very rich, high sec. systems should have law enforcement to make murder 'impossible'. We have most of the rules in place already. The NPCs just don't have the tools to enforce it.

Give the NPCs the tools for the job and make the criminal status persistent, but with a cool down effect. I don't think we need much more?

I think they key problem with c&p is
that those mechanics exist, but are not applied
to player murder.
Here is my suggestion to use existing mechanics,
before FD decide to tack on a new feature like "karma":
C&P Suggestion

Why use complex new mechanics with unforseen outcomes,
when we can use existing as a first step, to elaborate on?

 

[KevinMillican]

Pretty much sums up what I've been saying for the past 18 months - rep +1

 

[Grey Wolfe]

If it was done correctly then a C&P system could be a great selling point. Many people *want* to be outlaws in the game, with all that it brings.

Yup.

The core player base of this game will always appreciate 'non sexy' improvements. The galaxy map for example can't stand toe to toe with a ship launched fighter on this kind of scale, but no one would argue that it isn't a critically important part of the game.

If FD continue to focus predominantly on attractive content updates then they will increase their player base and sell more copies etc ... but then ultimately exacerbate the underlying issues discussed in this thread as more and more CMDRs come on board, get frustrated with the lack of diverse security and want repercussions for excessive or extreme gameplay styles.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

I'm not disagreeing with your thought process, but simply interested in how you deem the current PvP gameplay offered in ED as being a "massive section of possible gameplay options"?

Consider PvP (destruction) in ED for a moment... Would you disagree that it basically falls into one of the following four categories?
1) Mindless destruction - Interdicting anyone/everyone and blowing them up.
2) Spotting Wanted CMDRs and attacking.
3) Piracy ending in the pirate destroying the victim.
4) People/groups organising a PvP session.
Have I missed anything?

You missed out Power Play piracy / defense, although that's been spoiled from the beginning by the ease of just switching to Solo to deliver merits without any real opposition and also it just being generally more efficient to farm NPC transports for merits if you're one of the PP factions that benefits from material pirating.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

The problem nobody seems to get is that if murder has severe and long lasting consequences in the way most of you guys (VJ, for instance), think it should, murder will become nigh impossible, and that would cut the balls right off a massive section of possible gameplay options, not just the ganking that makes everybody so hysterical. I'm confident that we don't have C&P system yet just for that reason: because most systems that allowed for murder and mayhem to be at all possible are simply not going to provide enough relief for those of you so desperate for it. And if murder is rendered impossible outside of Anarchy systems (thanks VJ for outlining where PvPers are allowed to fly) and PvPers are forced to dwell there because of some sort of persistent karma system, that isn't going to be any fun, either.

If C&P is too draconian it will terminate all content related to non consensual violence. The recent conflict in Xihe for example wouldn't be happening, and that would be a shame, because that's some phenomenal gameplay right there.

I thought VJ made sense in the part of his video where he talked about an ingame CQC. I would like to see that.

I disagree. If you apply the karma in a variable fashion, depending on the severity of the crime, & have distinct levels of karma for all 3 super powers, then that does give you more than enough wriggle room.....especially if you can work off bad karma by doing positive things in game for a while.

- - - Updated - - -

You missed out Power Play piracy / defense, although that's been spoiled from the beginning by the ease of just switching to Solo to deliver merits without any real opposition and also it just being generally more efficient to farm NPC transports for merits if you're one of the PP factions that benefits from material pirating.

IIRC, 2.2.03 changed the value or merits in Open vs merits in Solo.

- - - Updated - - -

Which is what exactly? What exact gameplay elements are to be experienced when you're a roving murdering psychopath?

For the record, I would expect and karma + C&P system, or whatever you want to call it, to keep the game's established jurisdiction system. It has always been the intention of the developers to allow players to be heroes for one side and war criminals for the other. Meaning that, if you do get long lasting consequences for going on a murder spree, they should be confined to a minor jurisdiction, or a group of jurisdictions, or a major faction at most.

It's perfectly fine to have areas of space which want you and your credits wiped. "I won't go there, those guys want my neck". But if you decide to p*ss off the entire galaxy by being a criminal EVERYWHERE, then you should accept what's coming to you.

As I said, if you go on a murder spree in Federation space.....is the Empire *really* gonna care too much? I doubt it .

 

[Octanoz]

Agree with the analysis. Don't agree with the proposed solution. Not a PvP player myself if I can help it, btw.

I've been interdicted about a dozen times I'd say. Only once enroute to an engineer base planet and once at random. All other times were in CG systems. Most of the time during battle CGs, which I thought was fair enough. You come to fight, here's some actual players challenging you. Found out quickly that you do need some shield cell banks to fight players.

I still remember very well being interdicted during a CG about 18 months ago where we had to purchase slaves and then drop them off at Aisling Duval and she would set them free. I got interdicted just before making the destination. I wasn't fitted for combat at all and vaporized pretty quickly. The player that had interdicted me had written a template, though: "Slavery is wrong, death to all slavers, death to Aisling Duval!" something along those lines anyway. Of course I was irritated and wanted to respond to tell him that the whole point of the CG was to liberate slaves and that he wasn't really helping by blowing the slaves up but couldn't chat him anymore.

Bottom-line is, this guy was obviously bored. But he made the effort to write a template and role-play. He was doing it all wrong but still +1 for effort.

How do you stop "mindless destruction" as it's referred to? Provide decent PvP where players can engage in and test their skills against each other and get their fix.

Why not have specific PvP planets where you can dock at 1 of 2 massive stations and you can sign up for an instanced planet battle 6v6, 10v10 or however many ED servers can handle? That would be entertaining for a lot of PvP-ers, I'd say. Perhaps you can flesh this out at a later stage with players in special SRVs as well and more. Why try to fight them if you can give them what they want? This could also encourage non-PvP players to have a go.

PS: "Piracy is a legitimate profession" Pfff! Tell that to Captain Phillips!

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Agree with the analysis. Don't agree with the proposed solution. Not a PvP player myself if I can help it, btw.

I've been interdicted about a dozen times I'd say. Only once enroute to an engineer base planet and once at random. All other times were in CG systems. Most of the time during battle CGs, which I thought was fair enough. You come to fight, here's some actual players challenging you. Found out quickly that you do need some shield cell banks to fight players.

I still remember very well being interdicted during a CG about 18 months ago where we had to purchase slaves and then drop them off at Aisling Duval and she would set them free. I got interdicted just before making the destination. I wasn't fitted for combat at all and vaporized pretty quickly. The player that had interdicted me had written a template, though: "Slavery is wrong, death to all slavers, death to Aisling Duval!" something along those lines anyway. Of course I was irritated and wanted to respond to tell him that the whole point of the CG was to liberate slaves and that he wasn't really helping by blowing the slaves up but couldn't chat him anymore.

Bottom-line is, this guy was obviously bored. But he made the effort to write a template and role-play. He was doing it all wrong but still +1 for effort.

How do you stop "mindless destruction" as it's referred to? Provide decent PvP where players can engage in and test their skills against each other and get their fix.

Why not have specific PvP planets where you can dock at 1 of 2 massive stations and you can sign up for an instanced planet battle 6v6, 10v10 or however many ED servers can handle? That would be entertaining for a lot of PvP-ers, I'd say. Perhaps you can flesh this out at a later stage with players in special SRVs as well and more. Why try to fight them if you can give them what they want? This could also encourage non-PvP players to have a go.

PS: "Piracy is a legitimate profession" Pfff! Tell that to Captain Phillips!

Sounds like much of your personal experiences were well within the intended parameters of the game and the role playing it allows for. The issue that many are having is when certain players and player groups (SDC for example) take it way past this.

Offering a specifically designated environment for PvPers like those guys wont work, they WANT to invade the game areas and role playing of other CMDRs and disrupt their fun. Imagine telling a notorious bunch of graffiti guys that they now have specific walls to use ... do you think they'll take you up? No, because the fun is tagging in places they're not supposed to in order to create that annoyance and disruption. These guys are no different.

 

[ShimEnki]

Why not have specific PvP planets where you can dock at 1 of 2 massive stations and you can sign up for an instanced planet battle 6v6, 10v10 or however many ED servers can handle? That would be entertaining for a lot of PvP-ers, I'd say. Perhaps you can flesh this out at a later stage with players in special SRVs as well and more. Why try to fight them if you can give them what they want? This could also encourage non-PvP players to have a go.

Great idea.

Its the cmdroids that get their reward center nourishment from unwanted pvp that all this is trying to address. They would laugh at all the new pvp coding that offers consensual pvp and gain many smiles per gallon on it if the game still allowed unwanted pvp.

Look at the very healthy current successful games out there allowing players to play within one another's in game reality and cooperate achieving goals etc, yet to enter into pvp, the mechanic is there to only allow it by choice and thats the only way players with any sense will engage open and not be interested in pvp.

 

[TenakaFurey]

Just making a point that the actual day to day threat is grossly overblown compared to the actual threat. That really hurts the discussion because it becomes dishonest from the outset.

The other side of that is that the CMDRs most likely to run into griefers in those areas are those least able to deal with them. While I don't want to run down PvP, Elite (at the minute anyway) is not seen as a hardcore PvP game. Therefore many of the players in starter space aren't likely to be attracted to a game where they get repeatedly killed off by griefers. Such people, even if they play for a while, also won't have the same level of experience or have their ship equipped for combat. At the same time, you should not seek to remove PvP as such players impart a sense of risk and danger and life to the game that mere NPCs cannot. But the impact they have on the game goes far beyond their numbers....the fact that threads such as this exist and that griefing is seen as an issue shows the impact such players have, regardless of their numbers.

 

[StuartGT]

My response to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0

I don't like this video because you're pointing out the obvious, and therefore making me look stupid. Non-consensual forum PvP is griefing right?

 

[vindicator jones]

My response to this video:

You forgot about the bit where the trader gets blown up for no reason coming into/landing at the station..

Also, this dosent negate the need for an effective crime and punishment system.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

You forgot about the bit where the trader gets blown up for no reason coming into/landing at the station..

Also, this dosent negate the need for an effective crime and punishment system.

Yes, that's true.

 

[Oh Seven Commander]

You forgot about the bit where the trader gets blown up for no reason coming into/landing at the station..

Also, this dosent negate the need for an effective crime and punishment system.

Or, you could use your Youtube fame to promote people learning game mechanics and understanding how to play well. Yes, Rinzler did it in a very tongue-in-cheek "can you feel the burn now Mr. Krabs?" kind of way, but he is not wrong at all. An entire rework of C&P would be good, and would benefit the game greatly, but having a player base whose only idea of gameplay isn't farming credits in a shieldless trader is an easier and more efficient start. People can easily save themselves from death, they choose not to. The playerbase of this game, in many ways, is like the average obese American. They are constantly told that they are killing themselves with their lazy habits, but they do nothing. Stop being McDonalds, Mr. Jones, and start being Gold's Gym.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

Or, you could use your Youtube fame to promote people learning game mechanics and understanding how to play well. Yes, Rinzler did it in a very tongue-in-cheek "can you feel the burn now Mr. Krabs?" kind of way, but he is not wrong at all. An entire rework of C&P would be good, and would benefit the game greatly, but having a player base whose only idea of gameplay isn't farming credits in a shieldless trader is an easier and more efficient start. People can easily save themselves from death, they choose not to. The playerbase of this game, in many ways, is like the average obese American. They are constantly told that they are killing themselves with their lazy habits, but they do nothing. Stop being McDonalds, Mr. Jones, and start being Gold's Gym.

If EVE traders are still content to negatively tank their freighters and go AFK while flying through pirate territory after all this time I don't think there's really much that can be done to educate players that are unwilling to recognise the risks for themselves, or who would rather shift the blame for their mistakes to the PvPers that killed them or the developers that allowed them to die.

Fly shielded and carry a loaded multicannon should be a mantra for traders to live by in this hostile frontier, but frequently they get cargo blindness and instead think that being able to stuff in a few more biowaste to their hold is more profitable than the potential to get a hefty insurance bill.

Crime and punishment systems will only ever go so far and it's really telling that some people would prefer it if piracy wasn't possible at all and seem to suggest that players who enjoy that gameplay are in some way terrible people and wrong to do so.

 

[jasonbarron]

What I like about Rinzler's video, and Rinzler himself, is that his attitude is rooted in sound principles, management and self awareness, as well as an underlying attitude of "Jesus christ people, if you'd just take a couple simple precautions you'd hardly ever be a "victim.""

Plus, he makes me laugh.

I'm always going to have a lot more respect for the guy who asks that you get better and stronger and more situationally aware in order to deal with aggressors than the guy who's advice is for all intents in purposes "Everybody go complain to mama Fdev and maybe they'll protect us all from the bad 'ol gankers by making it impossible to gank."