VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[VR Golgot]

what is there to see?
cockpit VR mode is in ED from years now.

Yeah, there's a nice little section in this article which covers it well:

In a lot of ways virtual reality has been … I want to say “loss leader.” It’s been speculative. You see so many developers going, “Well, now we need to make a version that isn’t VR because no one is playing this game” So why was it important for your team to make this a VR game? And again, a VR game that I can experience start to finish entirely within VR. That’s what your trailer says.


Yep. It’s not wrong.


We started the game, and we had the initial prototype up and running very quickly. Much faster than normal. We were very pleased with that. We got it running in a week. And we had it running in VR by the end of the second week. So this game is like, really, really, really, from the ground up, both 2D and VR.


And why? I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head there. From a business standpoint, talking about how do we “optimize the amount of money this game is gonna make,” VR doesn’t make sense. It’s a much smaller audience than the broader market. But why are we doing it? It’s because we think it’s cool.


Not to give the super obvious answer, but we started this project and we went, “You’re seated in a cockpit. You have a fixed reference frame. You’re immersed within this role as a pilot on both sides, both factions. It’s a game that naturally fits in VR. You don’t need to port it to VR. This is a game that is that is capable of being — not every design is capable of this — but this design was capable of supporting both kind of intrinsically from the outset. And who doesn’t want that?


I know not everybody has VR, and that’s fine, but if you do or if you’re even considering it, we thought this is an amazing opportunity to let players do something that like… I don’t know about you, but playing the the Rogue One VR mission in the first Star Wars Battlefront is frigging amazing. And you see that and you’re like, “Can I just have a lot more of this?” And we thought, “Well, yes. Yes. You can. We’ll build that.” And so that’s very much what we’ve been doing with Squadrons.

Practically note for note how FDev talked about adding VR to ED . But still touches on some of the issues facing VR dev, and why cockpit sims are easier to do.

(Cool little article btw. And I'll def be getting SW: Squadrons )

 

[Slowfiddler]

Yeah, there's a nice little section in this article which covers it well

Looks amazing. Come on FDev, what's wrong with you?

 

[VR Golgot]

Looks amazing. Come on FDev, what's wrong with you?

There's nothing 'wrong' with them exactly. They're doing what most of the industry is doing. IE not prioritising meaningful VR dev for character gameplay, because it's a lot of work, and risks not making any money back for them.

It's the Legs component which is pretty clearly the issue here. (And the reason why your protest signature doesn't have much bite, as it primarily features vehicle sims, and just a handful of VR legs games which were made for VR alone. You're not demonstrating some industry norm that FDev is falling short of).

For our push to keep VR on the agenda to have any bite it's got to focus on a few core areas, IMO:

• Calling for Odyssey improvements to be accessible in Horizons where possible.
  • Being aware that they will need to keep Odyssey's additions firewalled in the main. If they just give big chunks of it away they devalue it as a new product put up for sale.
• Calling for an 'experimental' build of the game to be made available in the launcher, which has VR turned on for flight in Odyssey. (IE not an official launch product, but a 'beta' experiment paving the way for later additions).
  • Being aware that calling for an official 'VR ships / 2D legs' solution is unlikely to be sanctioned for the launch product. It would just look deeply unprofessional, and undercut the main pillar of the DLC.
• Calling for mods to be endorsed that allow basic VR to be switched on for Odyssey in solo mode.
• Signalling a willingness to pay more for a full VR Odyssey, as that's the industry norm for VR games.

Just saying 'come on FDev, for flip's sake, get it done, I don't care if you lose money', just isn't a very compelling case for them, and is unlikely to have any impact, beyond signalling general discontent. Which is just like mood music to most games companies

 

[Slowfiddler]

There's nothing 'wrong' with them exactly. They're doing what most of the industry is doing. IE not prioritising meaningful VR dev for character gameplay, because it's a lot of work, and risks not making any money back for them.

It's the Legs component which is pretty clearly the issue here. (And the reason why your protest signature doesn't have much bite, as it primarily features vehicle sims, and just a handful of VR legs games which were made for VR alone. You're not demonstrating some industry norm that FDev is falling short of).

For our push to keep VR on the agenda to have any bite it's got to focus on a few core areas, IMO:

• Calling for Odyssey improvements to be accessible in Horizons where possible.
  • Being aware that they will need to keep Odyssey's additions firewalled in the main. If they just give big chunks of it away they devalue it as a new product put up for sale.
• Calling for an 'experimental' build of the game to be made available in the launcher, which has VR turned on for flight in Odyssey. (IE not an official launch product, but a 'beta' experiment paving the way for later additions).
  • Being aware that calling for an official 'VR ships / 2D legs' solution is unlikely to be sanctioned for the launch product. It would just look deeply unprofessional, and undercut the main pillar of the DLC.
• Calling for mods to be endorsed that allow basic VR to be switched on for Odyssey in solo mode.
• Signalling a willingness to pay more for a full VR Odyssey, as that's the industry norm for VR games.

Just saying 'come on FDev, for flip's sake, get it done, I don't care if you lose money', just isn't a very compelling case for them, and is unlikely to have any impact, beyond signalling general discontent. Which is just like mood music to most games companies.

Good post, thanks. I agree with everything you say here. I just haven't the motivation to express myself so clearly.

What I don't understand though is why FD cannot offer the same experience as we have now in VR. That is, essentially, a 6 dof 3D headtracker which uses exactly the same game controls as the flat monitor view. If the new update allows running, jumping and hiding behind rocks using WASD, mouse or game controller then why not give us VR users exactly that? I expect the vast majority of current VR users would be perfectly happy with this approach, firstly because we are already used to this control method and secondly because we would rather have VR without fancy "Lone Echo" hand controller stuff than no VR at all.

My "come on FDev pull your finger out" comment was rather rude and just expressed my exasperation at this situation. Apologies to FDev.

 

[Cpt.Badger]

• Signalling a willingness to pay more for a full VR Odyssey, as that's the industry norm for VR games.

I can pay extra. No problem. Just give me VR. Duh.

 

[Slowfiddler]

I can pay extra. No problem. Just give me VR. Duh.

Ha, yes. I bought ED in 2018 for about the price of five cinema tickets. I have spent far more time and had much more fun in ED than I would have watching five films at the local fleapit. Money very well spent. Even if hypothetically a VR version of Odyssey were to cost twice that of pancake Odyssey then I say: "Take My Money! Now!"

 

[govny]

Yes, but they are removing it from their next update. That is the whole point of the outrage on this and other, many other, threads.

you can have that cockpit experience palying horizon.

 

[govny]

plus VR from launch.

even ED had VR from launch. Whats the difference?
If in future SW squadrons will add an FPS module mantaining VR support even for The FPS part, then you can complain ED did not.
I am a VR player and want VR support for Odissey, but this comparison is ridicuolus.

 

[Bob McBobblehead]

If there is no VR, why bother keeping the first person perspective, less work involved as you only have to animate hands and arms?

 

[epoch5]

It all boils down to one thing. NO VR NO MONEY till there is VR.

 

[VR Golgot]

If the new update allows running, jumping and hiding behind rocks using WASD, mouse or game controller then why not give us VR users exactly that? I expect the vast majority of current VR users would be perfectly happy with this approach, firstly because we are already used to this control method and secondly because we would rather have VR without fancy "Lone Echo" hand controller stuff than no VR at all.

I reckon the core issues is that classic stick & K/M locomotion cause nausea for lots of VR players.

The only real option for 'noob friendly' locomotion with classic controls would be to add HMD-relative motion, or the unlikey 'gaze teleport'. HMD-relative is perhaps possible, but it's pretty clunky when seated. Just about works with a wireless Xbox controller when standing. Having only those options would be pretty retrograde on the VR scene though at minimum, with motion controllers being so standardised for character gameplay now. And not having them at all would be major barrier to new VR players at worst. (The last thing any publisher wants there new product to do is make a bunch of players feel ill )

Basically doing low effort support guarantees a sub-standard experience, and a ton of bad reviews for their new launch. I can see why they don't want that.

I could get along with it just fine too, I'm sure lots of VR vets could to. But given how focussed Odyssey is on broadening the game's base (see the official chat about it being 'specifically designed to be a compelling, attractive and welcoming entry point for new players'), I think they'd probably want a better welcome mat than that...

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Good post, thanks. I agree with everything you say here. I just haven't the motivation to express myself so clearly.

What I don't understand though is why FD cannot offer the same experience as we have now in VR. That is, essentially, a 6 dof 3D headtracker which uses exactly the same game controls as the flat monitor view. If the new update allows running, jumping and hiding behind rocks using WASD, mouse or game controller then why not give us VR users exactly that? I expect the vast majority of current VR users would be perfectly happy with this approach, firstly because we are already used to this control method and secondly because we would rather have VR without fancy "Lone Echo" hand controller stuff than no VR at all.

My "come on FDev pull your finger out" comment was rather rude and just expressed my exasperation at this situation. Apologies to FDev.

+1

I can pay extra. No problem. Just give me VR. Duh.

Ha, yes. I bought ED in 2018 for about the price of five cinema tickets. I have spent far more time and had much more fun in ED than I would have watching five films at the local fleapit. Money very well spent. Even if hypothetically a VR version of Odyssey were to cost twice that of pancake Odyssey then I say: "Take My Money! Now!"

+1 except I joined in late 2015, and I've deliberately spent a fortune on paints etc, like enough that "the Duchess Le Chardon" would do her nut if she knew just how much, just to " help keep the game funded".

But having spent that money, primarily to contribute towards future development, I feel betrayed that I'm being excluded from the new content which I (tried to) help fund the development of.

 

[VR Golgot]

I can pay extra. No problem. Just give me VR. Duh.

Ha, yes. I bought ED in 2018 for about the price of five cinema tickets. I have spent far more time and had much more fun in ED than I would have watching five films at the local fleapit. Money very well spent. Even if hypothetically a VR version of Odyssey were to cost twice that of pancake Odyssey then I say: "Take My Money! Now!"

+1 except I joined in late 2015, and I've deliberately spent a fortune on paints etc, like enough that "the Duchess Le Chardon" would do her nut if she knew just how much, just to " help keep the game funded".

Yeah I think I'm going to run up a poll at some point.

I'm kind of loathe to be the one to say 'charge me more FDev', particularly with the LEP being so far from delivering on its upfront payment. (And I think the LEP complicates the situation for FDev a lot. Lots of prepaid cash, but do you ask that core of players to pay a bit more on top?).

Purely in terms of VR Legs, I do get the case for it costing more though.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

But given how focussed Odyssey is on broadening the game's base (see the official chat about it being 'specifically designed to be a compelling, attractive and welcoming entry point for new players'), I think they'd probably want a better welcome mat than that...

But surely no VR is going to be worse for sales than mediocre VR? If a gamer has AAA title money burning a hole in their steam wallet, and a headset, they are either going to buy the new Starwars game or one of the FPS in VR titles, where as if it had SOME VR support, they might buy elite thinking it would be scratching two itches for the price of one?

So as I see it, no VR discards a segment of the existing, loyal, playerbase, and may deter other players who are "new to the franchise" from "buying in to the game" at Odessy - either is bad, but both compounded? That's got to hurt...

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

Ha, yes. I bought ED in 2018 for about the price of five cinema tickets. I have spent far more time and had much more fun in ED than I would have watching five films at the local fleapit. Money very well spent. Even if hypothetically a VR version of Odyssey were to cost twice that of pancake Odyssey then I say: "Take My Money! Now!"

I have said this before and it remains true. The amount of time I have spent in ED far outweighs the cinema entrance in value for money - probably even if the VR rig is included. I would have no issues paying twice or even three times the money for keeping full VR compatibility.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Yeah I think I'm going to run up a poll at some point.

I'm kind of loathe to be the one to say 'charge me more FDev', particularly with the LEP being so far from delivering on its upfront payment. (And I think the LEP complicates the situation for FDev a lot. Lots of prepaid cash, but do you ask that core of players to pay a bit more on top?).

Purely in terms of VR Legs, I do get the case for it costing more though.

Yeah, the LEP not covering a "VR content pack" would be a controversial and thorny issue, but if they are willing to pay it, why not? Options in the poll should include:

• Would a bundle of ARX included in your VR expansion pack sway you?
• I have an LEP and I expect VR in Odessy to be covered by that
  • it was a VR game at the time the LEP was sold
• I have an LEP but I'd be willing to buy a VR expansion pack for Odessy
• I don't have a LEP, but would pay extra for a VR expansion pack for Odessy
• I don't have a LEP, but would expect VR to be a core part of Odessy
  • Without VR I'd still buy Odessy
  • Without VR I'm not buying Odessy and will not pay extra for VR in Odessy

• Options for pricing, if you were willing to pay extra, how much would you be willing to spend on a VR expansion pack?
  • £5
  • £10
  • £15
  • £20
  • £25
• Even if you wouldn't pay for a VR expansion pack, would you contribute to an official FDev ran Kickstarter?
  • They could say VR support in Odessy would cost (for example) £50k* if you fund it, we'll make it
  • Or they could say it will cost £150K* - but if the players contribute £50k* & we'll do it anyway
    • This would be seen as a gesture of goodwill to VR players, FDev taking a ~£100k hit on the chin to keep up happy, although longer term it is in the company's interests to have VR in their game/engine so they'd still "win" from future sales of titles and or increased cosmetics from VR players who'd appreciate the olive branch.

*The £50k & £150k are hypothetical values put in place for illustration, it could be half that, it could be ten times that

 

[VR Golgot]

But surely no VR is going to be worse for sales than mediocre VR? If a gamer has AAA title money burning a hole in their steam wallet, and a headset, they are either going to buy the new Starwars game or one of the FPS in VR titles, where as if it had SOME VR support, they might buy elite thinking it would be scratching two itches for the price of one?

So as I see it, no VR discards a segment of the existing, loyal, playerbase, and may deter other players who are "new to the franchise" from "buying in to the game" at Odessy - either is bad, but both compounded? That's got to hurt...

For VR sales? For sure . But VR sales will still be a relatively small slice of the pie, and doubtless eclipsed by the sales to flatscreeners, + new flatscreeners attracted by the leggy format. (So is there really an incentive for them to earn that smaller slice, keep vets on board, but get negative reviews from new sign ups, damaging the broader launch's perception?)

I don't think SW Squadron is really an 'either / or' competitor for them. It's a slimmish offering, focused on its arena modes for longevity, coming out in early Q4 vs their Q1 launch. (And I'm not sure there even is a space-niche VR FPS on the horizon for around Q1 2021 is there?)

 

[VR Golgot]

Yeah, the LEP not covering a "VR content pack" would be a controversial and thorny issue, but if they are willing to pay it, why not? Options in the poll should include:

• Would a bundle of ARX included in your VR expansion pack sway you?
• I have an LEP and I expect VR in Odessy to be covered by that
  • it was a VR game at the time the LEP was sold
• I have an LEP but I'd be willing to buy a VR expansion pack for Odessy
• I don't have a LEP, but would pay extra for a VR expansion pack for Odessy
• I don't have a LEP, but would expect VR to be a core part of Odessy
  • Without VR I'd still buy Odessy
  • Without VR I'm not buying Odessy and will not pay extra for VR in Odessy

• Options for pricing, if you were willing to pay extra, how much would you be willing to spend on a VR expansion pack?
  • £5
  • £10
  • £15
  • £20
  • £25
• Even if you wouldn't pay for a VR expansion pack, would you contribute to an official FDev ran Kickstarter?
  • They could say VR support in Odessy would cost (for example) £50k* if you fund it, we'll make it
  • Or they could say it will cost £150K* - but if the players contribute £50k* & we'll do it anyway
    • This would be seen as a gesture of goodwill to VR players, FDev taking a ~£100k hit on the chin to keep up happy, although longer term it is in the company's interests to have VR in their game/engine so they'd still "win" from future sales of titles and or increased cosmetics from VR players who'd appreciate the olive branch.

*The £50k & £150k are hypothetical values put in place for illustration, it could be half that, it could be ten times that

I was thinking of keeping it fairly open, and going with something like this:


Would you pay more to have VR in Odyssey?

• Yes (I do not have a Lifetime Pass)
• No (I do not have a Lifetime Pass)
• Yes (I have a Lifetime Pass)
• No (I have a Lifetime Pass)

But yeah, maybe a section for 'how much more' would be good too.

 

[epoch5]

Goes without saying I would gladly pay more for VR.

 

[Stamford Rider]

Right, my "cool starry bra".
Inspired by the squabbling in this thread, I thought I'd see what the fuss was all about, but was unwilling to shell out a grand or more for the privilege, so given that I have a pretty decent android phone I shelled out the grand total of about 40 nicker for the necessary software and one of those cheapo "stick your phone in this" headsets.
After a bit of p155ing about I've managed to get Elite running in VR at about 30fps. I can certainly see why VR afficionados with better kit would be unwilling to lose that experience.
Perhaps more salient to the legs point, I've also been playing "Alien: isolation" in VR using motherVR. It's a first person mouse and keyboard (or controller) experience (I bound the keyboard commands to my throttle). There's a little nausea, probably in part because I'm new to VR, but it still works pretty damned well, and I can really see no reason why Odyssey with that level of VR support would not do very, very well. I wouldn't expect it to take that much dev time, either.
Just my 2c.