VR vs pancake

I assume "pancake" means "normal screen"?

Personally VR's still a richer-man-than-I's game. The room, equipment, and cost involved is beyond my capabilities. Like, sure I could afford a headset - it's only like a quarter the price of my car - but then I'd need a rig capable of running it AND a HOTAS setup so that's like what triple the cost right there. Also, and I dunno if this is just a me thing or just the sets I've used, but they all made me feel motionsick like mental.

I envy you boys, I really do, but I guess I'll have to just keep enjoying the game on a 17" CRT monitor from 1998 THE WAY GOD HIMSELF INTENDED! :p
 
Ain't there a rumour their scratching the 4080?

4090/4090ti yeah like 80% quicker than a 3090 lol. Course that's just speculation atm.
Scalpers will be on form.. least we ain't gonna be competing with the miners!
 
Difference between watching a sunset outside your window or watching it on a tablet (for me) - not as good obviously since reality has better pixel resolution but you get my point.
For me it's the different between watching a sunset on a heavy pixelated tablet strapped to your face at low framerate versus a nice tablet with no noticable pixels at viewing distance, better contrast and a less awful framerate.
In VR, you're in there with the stars in glorious virtual-reality-o-vision. It's much clearer when you're plotting in 3D
Is it? I've had no issue with clarity in the galmap on pancake. In fact I work quicker as I can use the mouse, and even alt-tab out to look stuff up and copy system names...
One of the funny things about VR is that you see amazing sites all the time and you think i have to capture/record this. Then you watch the recording back on your flat monitor later and its looks completely boring!
The only capture I've made of ED in VR was this screenshot, and (ignoring the accidental camera suite UI...) I think it looks better on a monitor than it did in my headset. I have no idea how you're supposed to take screenshots in VR though, considering you can't really see what it'll end up looking like, and the flickering when taking the high-res screenshot is the closest I've come to an epileptic fit.
And for recording... I recorded some ETS2 VR with a friend and that was difficult enough, having to manage OBS in VR. And given how badly video encoding affects Odyssey's performance outside of VR... I wouldn't like to try it in VR.
 
The screen door effect is the last remaining bastion of VR nastiness that Needs overcoming. Along with being alot lighter stuck to my face for hours hehe.
Personally I don't interact with the real world outside of elite. Whilst playing I'm doing just that...pop ups etc are blocked long ago..
But that's just me.
I agree if its all janky running streaming and whatever that needs fixing. I'm guessing a hammer like a 4090ti might go alongway to doing just that.
The techs getting better all the time.
Soon we'll have photo realistic VR that's akin to the real world.
But that's the future.
Making hmds lighter and with outstanding clarity is their no1 priority.
 
Is it? I've had no issue with clarity in the galmap on pancake. In fact I work quicker as I can use the mouse, and even alt-tab out to look stuff up and copy system names...

Yes it is. Of course it's a subjective thing. I like viewing the galmap in 3D. You prefer pancake mode. Good for you

It's good that the game gives us options to play the way we want to. Have fun playing Elite on your large flat telly. I'll see you out in the black o7
 
The screen door effect is the last remaining bastion of VR nastiness

What headset are you rocking?

I have had DK2, Rift, RiftS and now Quest 2 (see sig for how I have it set, which is less than native but maximum Link quality)

Screen door on DK2 was just... wow.
Rift was really bad.
RiftS was when I could ignore it
Quest 2's SDE is pretty much at the point where I need to look for it to see it. I also enjoy watching movies on it.

Making hmds lighter and with outstanding clarity is their no1 priority.
100% with you for making it lighter.

Owning a Q2 and from owning that HMD's point of view, my priorities for improvement are now:
1st FoV
2nd weight
3rd auto wassname to dynamical adjust retinal focus
4th fidelity
 
G2 reverb.. but l have prescription inserts that I'm sure are contributing to a slight screen door effect. Same as glasses really.
But l do have to look for it.
It's a fine mesh especially seen at planetary bodies from a distance
 
I don't have VR, we just bought a house and have no budget for that. Though I did try VR about 8 months ago. My into was Half Life: Alyx and it was amazing. I purposely, even though the opportunity was there, did not try ED in 3D, because I didn't want to get the "I wants".

For the past three evenings, I've moved my PC (Ryzen 3700X 3.6 GHz, 16 GB DDr4 3200, RTX 2060) into the living room to play on the 65" Samsung 4k TV. I've been playing at the same 1440p (Game Settings: Ultra/Normal/x1,0) that is native on my 165Hz 27" monitor and I'm getting better frame rates...

It has been amazing to look at. But I've had issues with keyboard, joystick, mouse and a lower than desk height table and my wrists. So I'm moving back to my desk...
 
The trouble with VR is you need so much to get it to run. Leastways in a resolution thats acceptable, rendering properly.
All in its a pretty penny.
2k at least.
But thats extreme.
I'm extreme....I didn't mean to be. It just happened because l wanted it to run in a certain way.
I successfully achieved I
This...but at great expense.
Talk about insane!
 

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Will add to the chorus concerning head-tracking. It's painful to go from VR to untracked pancake. But for Ody VR is pain on my rig at the moment. So head tracked pancake it is.

I've heard one or two people say that a large curved display is more immersive than VR. Also more expensive mind... i don't believe them, but willing to believe there's something in it.

EDIT - I find that the difference for me is not whether I get immersed, but how long it takes (VR is that immediate home-from-home in my cockpit, ). Typed comms are also so much easier without the headset, so sometimes if expecting to do I lot of that even before Ody I would consciously make that choice. Finally, on-foot I prefer in pancake anyway, at least with the current projection-in-VR implementation - I'm used to it with FPS.
 
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So... Whilst the game is perfectly playable in VR today (EDIT: Performance-wise ...including on-foot with the vanity camera), IMHO even doubling performance is not going to come anywhere near making proper use of even current headsets -- It takes rendering something like 30 Pixels Per Degree of field of view, for Odyssey planets to begin to look like terrain layers remotely fit together and don't look too splotchy, regardless of the resolution of one's monitor or headset, and that higher rendered resolution looks much better on them, even if they themselves are nowhere near these 30PPD...

I too constantly have that experience with a vista that is stunning in VR coming out flat and unremarkable on a screenshot -- it is the exact same view, framed by where I look, with the same lighting and everything -- it's just lost all depth and "life"...

(Does anybody else have the impression, by the way, that update 12 changed some detail texture bias for the worse? -There has long been this sharp line between where textures are more detailed within a circle around you, and everything much blander beyond it, but it feels worse than ever -- like the farther terrain drops down not just one MIP (...and maybe LOD, too), but two or three...)

I am also pretty sure a not insignificant contributor to the nausea many players feel, especially when driving the SRV, is low frame rate - even when they have synthetic frames filling in the blanks; Those are simply not good enough, and often work against their purpose, as they warp your view, even if you've learned to overlook that, or even honestly can't tell the difference. It would be nice if we could get full rate true frame for headsets with 120Hz and higher refresh rates, and to have both that and the higher render resolution... Yeah... Bring the 400090Ti... :/


I'm of the opinion game graphics needs to retire rasterisation entirely, and switch to full raytracing as soon as performance levels allow - no hybrid half-measures.

Raytracing is much, much more computation heavy, but does also bring with it a number of possibilites where performance is concerned...

Given it renders per pixel, it can be parallellised to a great degree, and if the competetive market wasn't what it is, I would really have liked to see an industry standard for distributed rendering -- doing multi-GPU properly this time -- which would let you have e.g. a "main" graphics card, which has all the outputs, and rasterisation cores for legacy titles, and stuff like that - maybe an on-board SSD for caching, and then as many supporting render farm cards as you can afford and fit (possibly via a dedicated network bus, rather than over PCI), which have only raytracing cores, and whose scene data caches can be written to in parallel, and which are optimised for performance per watt, instead of trying to squeeze that last tiny drop of juice out of them, at a ridiculous cost in waste heat.
These cards would be assigned work by the managing software, based on their individual capabilities, and they could be any mix of manufacturers and hardware generations.

Yeah... We're never going to see that sort of co-operation in the GPU market... :(


The same per-pixel affordance that would enable the above, could also allow a lot of optimisations to be done per-pixel.

A problem with current realtime 3D graphics is that the viewplane is always a rectangle - a single flat plane, and that becomes more and more of a problem the wider you make the field of view, due to simple matters of geometry - projecting an object that takes up one degree of your field of view is going to cover a lot more pixels out in the far periphery, than it does right in the centre of screen, until it (by the tangent, not linearly) reaches infinity at 90 degrees from straight ahead.

This could be eliminated with some forethought by the renderer programmer, who could cast rays for pixels by the degree, rather than by equidistant sample points on a flat viewplane - in effect making their viewplane logarithmic, or cylindrical, or spherical, or parabolic, or any other shape. This would eliminate a ton of unnecessary work (and buffer VRAM waste along with it), that is currently being done -- more such waste the wider the FOV is. Triple-monitor players could probably see a noticeable performance benefit from this, and not only the VR heads.

Rays could also be cast in passes; Each individual sample adding detail to the final image, all the way up until deadline for a given frame rate target, at which point rendering could be terminated at will, and the frame be constructed out of every bit that has been traced so far, in time for its targetted screen refresh. This would make the graphics quality inherently scale dynamically, and fine-grained, to requested frame rate, scene complexity, and hardware performance.

...and then you've got foveation. -Given the human eye only see sharply in a tiny part of its field of view, which projects on a small patch on the retina where cone type photoreceptor distribution is markedly denser than elsewhere. If you have sufficiently fast and accurate eyetracking (...which is expected from most upcoming HMDs), you could significantly reduce render resolution for everything outside the small portion of the frame that the eye can see in high detail, and it wouldn't bother the user greatly.

Even Tobii-equipped monitor players could benefit from this, if their screens are large enough, and they sit close enough to them.

(Large swathes of screen area that has on previous frames been e.g. all black, could possibly be considered for rendering a lower resolution, too)

There are a pair of additional factors that have to do with the lenses in (current) VR headsets. The sample density could also be tuned to how they distort the image, optimising further -- they tend to compress the image toward their centres (so called "pincushion" distortion), which is why games are typically rendering 1.4 times larger frames than what is native for the HMD screens - you render at the higher effective observed ocular resolution that the lenses give you right down their axes, to make use of it, but unfortunately with rasterisation you must render the same viewplane resolution for the entire frame, including the periphery, which is stretched out by the lenses (...although it is possible to skip pixels in the fragment shaders, and interpolate them instead) -- this is more wasted effort, which can be eliminated by redistributing rendering density across the field of view - in this case matching the distortion profile of the lens.

Finally... This lens distortion... It could be accounted for from the get-go, right when casting each ray from the camera, so that the frame comes out of the rendering process already with the barrel distortion that counters the opposite distortion of the lens, removing the need to apply this distortion as a post effect.
 
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Pancake is not that bad at 7680x1440p

And you don't have to adjust your face to reach for your Hutton Mug! 😂

Source: https://youtu.be/8ivT7kj4J18

Source: https://youtu.be/zbinImBkjNA
Did that 7 years ago with the added benefit of nVidia 3D Vision 2.0 on 3x27" active 3D screens laid out exactly as you have. Invested a lot of time and money getting it all to play nice together and succeeded. Got my first WMR headset a few years later and realised pretty quickly that surround screens, even with active 3D vision were not in the same league as my VR experience and that was when I had the original HTC Vive, not even the Pro.

Still hate having the oversized heavy ski mask stuck to my face though. Tried last night, for the 5th time, to load X Foundations in pancake. Maxed out all the settings, started the game and ...well ...sigh

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Elite in VR is amazing. My preferred way to play the game. But I still play in pancake when I’m doing planet surface work and when driving the barf mobile. In pancake I’m using a 34” curved ultra wide monitor and TrackIR. No problems playing in either mode, aside from the difference with being “in the game” versus “looking into the game” through a 34” window.
 
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Well I've tweeked my way upto 160% steam slider . Still running/rendering gorgeously. That's over 4132k per lense. My cockpit is a cathedral of vision. All round smooth seamless.
Which for what I'm doing is perfect.
Once I get a new gen headset that utterly eliminates screen door I'll be content. Cos once you see it thats it your eyes just focus on it. Lowered gamma a bit which helps.
See even in this resolution I'm griping hehehe.
 
On my G1 I don't think the Steam slider really starts to alleviate aliasing until I get to >352% in EDO although now OpenC and OpenXR seem to be playing well with each other, obviously SteamVR isn't running anymore. @Dragsham are you talking about EDO or EDH? at 160% in EDO, on mine, it's not a noteworthy improvement.
 
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