Warning: AI does not break in head-on passes, even when it is suicidal not to break.

Nerwan · May 31, 2016

Cynaqq said:
I wouldn't agree with the lateral thrusters. FDL's vertical thrusters are a bit weak but the lateral ones are amazing if you have 4 pips to engines. Having upgraded to A rated thrusters also help a lot.

FA off can help too.. sometimes I find that I've mismanaged my pips a bit and don't have a boost left when I need one to evade. Ever since Alexander the Grape's excellent video concerning all the different properties of FA off I've found that FA off + lateral thrust is a good alternative method of evading because the lateral acceleration rate is higher than with FA on.

Brian of Ardagh · May 31, 2016

babelfisch said:
That's not the case though. There are no flying bomb NPCs. One of thousand NPC encounters end with death by ramming. If someone sees ramming more often I would suggest that the player is to blame because otherwise more players would report it. I never get rammed because I know how to handle my ship.

So your central point isn't a point at all, the problem you are describing doesn't exist. And if one of thousand NPCs decides to ram you are free to come up with a reason like kamikaze, last resort or suicidal tendencies.

Well, I don't have stats to say that it's not 1 in a 1000 but the OP has seen it more than a few times, player vs. AI and AI vs. AI. And no, there are no flying bombs in this game, that was a reference to the kamikaze argument. The NPCs don't have reasons to ram you, they have programming or bugs. The question is which one is it? Are they programmed under certain conditions to ram as a tactic or is it a bug where they ram you by mistake. The security services ramming issue was a bug, unless you think they all had been programmed with suicidal tendencies.

In fighting games like Halo or Destiny the enemy sometimes has berserker type fighters. They are specifically programmed to attack you without regard for their own life, sometimes running at you with live grenades ready to explode. That programming I understand as it works with the lore of the game and the motivation of the enemy. To me, and IMO, the lore dictates that the NPCs are humans piloting those ships, they should have similar motivations, survival should be a major factor. Ramming should only be a valid tactic if their ship is specifically designed to survive such an encounter.

I think the only one that can tell us if ramming is a programmed behavior or a bug is SJA.

babelfisch · May 31, 2016

Brian of Ardagh said:
Well, I don't have stats to say that it's not 1 in a 1000 but the OP has seen it more than a few times, player vs. AI and AI vs. AI. And no, there are no flying bombs in this game, that was a reference to the kamikaze argument. The NPCs don't have reasons to ram you, they have programming or bugs. The question is which one is it? Are they programmed under certain conditions to ram as a tactic or is it a bug where they ram you by mistake. The security services ramming issue was a bug, unless you think they all had been programmed with suicidal tendencies.

In fighting games like Halo or Destiny the enemy sometimes has berserker type fighters. They are specifically programmed to attack you without regard for their own life, sometimes running at you with live grenades ready to explode. That programming I understand as it works with the lore of the game and the motivation of the enemy. To me, and IMO, the lore dictates that the NPCs are humans piloting those ships, they should have similar motivations, survival should be a major factor. Ramming should only be a valid tactic if their ship is specifically designed to survive such an encounter.

I think the only one that can tell us if ramming is a programmed behavior or a bug is SJA.

It always takes two to ram... tango... you know what I mean. I never said that ramming is by design.

LoneWolf2183 · May 31, 2016

Brian of Ardagh said:
That's only because there's really no death in the Elite universe. As a human player you might not want to lose your ship and see the rebuy screen but it's not like you are dead, i.e. iron man mode. The NPCs though don't "care", they should be programmed for some survival mechanism though. Can you imagine a game where all NPC ships act like flying bombs and attack other ships en masse because that would be an excellent tactic, since they don't have lives to lose, ships to rebuy or rebuild.

That's the central point, are we playing against simulated humans or AI? If we are playing against simulated humans they should have similar motivations.

I've actually had them turn away in combat. So it is possible.

Moonax IRL · May 31, 2016

Brian of Ardagh said:
It's an excellent tactic for an NPC since they never have to see an insurance screen, buy their ship in the first place or grind for engineer mods.

This is what some people mean by the NPC's cheating. They don't have to play by the same rules as humans, they don't worry about losing their ships because there are no consequences to losing.

Actually that's a fair point. I usually scowl at people who suggest NPCs cheating in light of SJA post re same but if you program in an idea of self preservation into the AI then is fight or flight. We saw the response from the community on that in the beta when the AI ran when they lost there shields, no doubt modelled on human players. It's probably a very tricky balance.

Don Alvarez · May 31, 2016

Vincent Starson said:
Being rammed by AI isn't fun or very sportsmanlike. You can hand-wave it away as valid tactics in war and whatever but doesn't change the fact it's annoying.

The amount of damage you take from ramming has been adjusted many times since launch. Clippers still seem to ram better than they should. It would be best if the AI was more fun to play with, and thus less rammy. But that's just like, my opinion man.

Exactly. 1v1 combat with larger ships seems to all play out the same: Flip, Joust, Dodge; Flip, Joust, Dodge, until one of you is dead either by gunfire or collision and no, its not really fun. Maneuvering is fun. Shooting is fun. Flipping just in time to catch a boosting Dropship's nose in my canopy (over and over) is not fun.

edit: Why bother giving NPC's weapons. Just stack them up with HRP's and military armor, and turn CZ's into demolition derbys. That might be fun.

babelfisch · May 31, 2016

Don Alvarez said:
Exactly. 1v1 combat with larger ships seems to all play out the same: Flip, Joust, Dodge; Flip, Joust, Dodge, until one of you is dead either by gunfire or collision and no, its not really fun. Maneuvering is fun. Shooting is fun. Flipping just in time to catch a boosting Dropship's nose in my canopy (over and over) is not fun.

You should try smaller more maneuverable ships if you don't like to fly with the large ships.

Don Alvarez · May 31, 2016

babelfisch said:
You should try smaller more maneuverable ships if you don't like to fly with the large ships.

That's just skirting the issue.

I do like to fly with larger ships. I enjoy CZ's, because thats the only time the AI feels a bit more organic, when it's coping with multiple attackers and can't focus on just ramming you.

babelfisch · May 31, 2016

Don Alvarez said:
That's just skirting the issue.

I do like to fly with larger ships. I enjoy CZ's, because thats the only time the AI feels a bit more organic, when it's coping with multiple attackers and can't focus on just ramming you.

Maybe NPCs would complain that you are always trying to ram them if they could?

ROSS-128 · May 31, 2016

Honestly it's probably just a side-effect of the AI trying to keep weapons on you, and not having the best grasp of inertia. Especially in heavier ships, which can be kind of drifty.

Either that, or the AI just doesn't care:

Don Alvarez · May 31, 2016

babelfisch said:
Maybe NPCs would complain that you are always trying to ram them if they could?

I'm sure the would. I'm sure they're on the NPC forums right now arguing if its a valid tactic, complaining that's it nonsense and whining that its near impossible to avoid. I could almost buy it, if I wasn't aware that even the mid levels among them can out fly me 100% of the time, and always will, so that puts the onus on them.

shadragon · May 31, 2016

CMDR Dumbfries said:
Or it's another bug in a long list of many...
The lengths people go to defending this garbage is amazing.

So when I've been rammed by CMDR's in a similar fashion that was a bug too?

babelfisch · May 31, 2016

Don Alvarez said:
I'm sure the would. I'm sure they're on the NPC forums right now arguing if its a valid tactic, complaining that's it nonsense and whining that its near impossible to avoid. I could almost buy it, if I wasn't aware that even the mid levels among them can out fly me 100% of the time, and always will, so that puts the onus on them.

So mid level NPCs outmaneuver you all the time? Well theres your problem, you need to use your joystick and start maneuvering yourself.

Starkiller_ · May 31, 2016

I don't break on heading on passes either, does that mean I need patched?

Soon(TM) · May 31, 2016

Rankaze said:
EDIT: Why the @#$@ does everyone assume that when I am trying to warn someone else against making the combat mistake I made (assuming the AI would not ram when it's suicidal to ram) that I am here to complain about it? Fine. I will never attempt to help anyone on the forums again.

Forum white knights gonna defend.

Either deal with it or post on another forum

Prior to 2.1, I do recall NPCs evading head on collisions....

babelfisch · May 31, 2016

Starkiller_ said:
I don't break on heading on passes either, does that mean I need patched?

You are a bug!

sirius42 · May 31, 2016

Rankaze said:
Um, no, ramming someone when it will destroy YOU is not a valid combat tactic.

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Once again, the thing that made it a flaw in the AI is that the Python was also destroyed.

What I'm pointing out is that the AI doesn't break when a reasonable human would break and that pilots need to be aware of it. That's all.

EDIT: Why the @#$@ does everyone assume that when I am trying to warn someone else against making the combat mistake I made (assuming the AI would not ram when it's suicidal to ram) that I am here to complain about it? Fine. I will never attempt to help anyone on the forums again.

This bug has been taken over into 2.1 from 2.0 (i think there are still bug reports open..We'll look into this..).

NPC cobras and eagles ramming me in my Anaconda without any change to win..

And dont stop posting here this forum is just toxic.

Mark Lock · May 31, 2016

Rankaze said:
This is not a complaint thread, just a warning to my fellow combat pilots about behavior I have observed.

In head-on firing passes in combat, the AI does not break off. Ever. Even when not breaking off is suicide. (Caveat: I don't know if this is true for small AI ships, but it is true for large ones).

I first observed this behavior when I (in my Fer-de-Lance) was interdicted by a Master Python while on a delivery mission. It was a very tough fight, but I was winning - I was at about 60% hull and had a ring and a half of shields up, the Python was at roughly 30% hull and had no shields. We went into a head-on pass in which I reduced the Python's hull to about 20% and I lost half a ring of shields. I attempted to break off the pass, but apparently too late - the AI either did not break or actively turned into my break - I'm not sure which - and collided with me... destroying both of us.

After this, I went into a High Intensity RES for a while and watched the AI fight the AI to see if this behavior was common. As it turns out, it's not merely common, it's universal. Time and time again I watched pirate and security Anacondas boost headlong into each other, the collisions destroying one and sometimes both ships.

It would appear that the AI in large ships has no programmed aversion to collisions which might destroy its own ship. Again, this is not a complaint (I do think that's a flaw in the AI, but it might actually be a flaw to a Commander's advantage if he knows about it), just an observation of something to be cautious of. Don't enter into head-on firing passes with the AI unless you're sure you can survive the collision, because the AI will make no attempt to avoid it and may actively seek it, even at the price of its own destruction.

Ramming is a tactic in this game, both npcs and players do that all the time, security ships ramming eachother is a bug ...

sirius42 · May 31, 2016

Mark Lock said:
Ramming is a tactic in this game, both npcs and players do that all the time, security ships ramming eachother is a bug ...

Suicide ramming the best tactic ever yeh.

Or would you call them NPC psychos ?

joshman72nd · May 31, 2016

yep they will ram even when they are clearly losing (they are at 20% hull) im still 2 shield rings with class 2 resistance mod 4 a boosters and a class B 7 shield.