It's not a fiction that there are player groups who want guild play along similar, if not identical, lines to Eve and similar games, a point you've acknowledged yourself here. Which is why I deliberately used 'IF' - if Frontier decides to go down that path. The definition of fallacy is 'mistaken belief' - it is not mistaken to believe that IF Frontier ever did decide to go down that path that it would be a negative impact on a very large portion of the playerbase (a majority, i would argue). It remains to be seen whether it is a mistaken belief that Frontier won't ever go down that path - I agree it's unlikely given the stance to date, but is that reason not to continue arguing against it when someone proposes it? I agree that improved tools for good group coordination would be great. It also remains to be seen whether it is a mistaken belief that introducing such tools wouldn't lead to more guild-focused mechanics such as asset and territory ownership (which is the bit I think most are concerned about because of the implications). The more nefarious groups won't want it to stop at 'improved tools' - that's not a fallacy. While I also agree that Frontier currently as no plans to go down that path and that such groups need to accept that, while such groups keep agitating for it, I will continue to argue against it. It's part of keeping Frontier mindful that many of us don't want it. If nothing else, continued threads like this empasise for Frontier that it remains a highly contentious matter, which in turn reinforces that they have to be very careful in considering what they do or don't implement for guilds/clans - which at the end of the day is all I want them to be......careful about what they implement.
We need the ability to form in-game clans
- Thread starter TRLOS
- Start date
It's not a fiction that there are player groups who want guild play along similar, if not identical, lines to Eve and similar games, a point you've acknowledged yourself here. Which is why I deliberately used 'IF' - if Frontier decides to go down that path. The definition of fallacy is 'mistaken belief' - it is not mistaken to believe that IF Frontier ever did decide to go down that path that it would be a negative impact on a very large portion of the playerbase (a majority, i would argue). It remains to be seen whether it is a mistaken belief that Frontier won't ever go down that path - I agree it's unlikely given the stance to date, but is that reason not to continue arguing against it when someone proposes it? I agree that improved tools for good group coordination would be great. It also remains to be seen whether it is a mistaken belief that introducing such tools wouldn't lead to more guild-focused mechanics such as asset and territory ownership (which is the bit I think most are concerned about because of the implications). The more nefarious groups won't want it to stop at 'improved tools' - that's not a fallacy. While I also agree that Frontier currently as no plans to go down that path and that such groups need to accept that, while such groups keep agitating for it, I will continue to argue against it. It's part of keeping Frontier mindful that many of us don't want it. If nothing else, continued threads like this empasise for Frontier that it remains a highly contentious matter, which in turn reinforces that they have to be very careful in considering what they do or don't implement for guilds/clans - which at the end of the day is all I want them to be......careful about what they implement.
If that line of reasoning were valid, then we'd never have seen Wings introduced (because, by definition, we're already on that 'slippery slope'). We'd never see any improvement to the multiplayer aspects of the game. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as a positive thing. I see it as in-game nimbyism and a barrier to the progression of what is a massively multiplayer experience.
Players obviously want to improve the multiplayer element of the game, simply because it could be improved so much. Even basic things like mission sharing are things which we'd want to see introduced. (And as a reminder, the discussion isn't just about guilds/clans - the complaint in the OP was the poor multiplayer element, it's the solutions proposed which were guild-like.)
Of course players will want to own assets. Of course players will want to control areas of space. But that's why the improvement of the relationship between minor factions and players is so appealing as remains within the in-game constraints but still gives them something to strive towards and invest in and I'd argue that we should want to encourage that. (And this minor factions being the umbrella for clans isn't a new idea - I've seen this proposal put forward many times previously.)
Anything which improves the 'stickiness' of the game is to everyone's benefit. The unconstructive resistance to anything that even hints at improving the ability of friends to improve their interactions within the game is not a good thing. It's far, far better to outline the constraints within which we think it's acceptable to allow this functionality to exist.
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The constant argument against those that wish for 'Eve based guilds'...becomes just that. A constant argument. That the devs do not pay attention to. This means that the idea of guilds needs to be put into a single thread...just like the Open vs. discussion. Those that feel the necessity to explain the developmental reasons why guilds will never be incorporated to the game as almost all other MMO's...are free to do such...until the thread finally goes quiet. Just like the Open vs. thread. It has gone dormant and the length of dormancy continues to increase...because those with the 'suggestions' and 'opinions' either get tired of the argument, realize the devs are not listening to their opinions, or accept the game for what it is...or leave because of what it isn't.
This is the same discussion. How the mods desire to handle the discussions and threads...are up to them. I trust the devs on their most basic decisions within the game. They are stuck on three modes for the PC...two for the XBone. Others do not. What you are arguing about then is your lack of trust of the devs to follow their design plan at the level of the most basic parts of the game that identify the game and make it 'special' in their eyes and the gaming market at large. The problem is that this is not a one way, over the cliff, kind of action. It will be announced, played, and shown to all in a direct, step wise manner. That is the fallacy. There is no 'genie' or 'horse' to escape. I know there are people that left this game because wings was put in, that the communications was increased, that groups were being catered to. People need to get past the idea this is designed as a single player game with a tacked on multiplayer aspect....that 'feel' was the quickest way to get the game to market. The game is meant to be a large scale PVE fight between different members of large factions, that might, someday have to decide if the petty squabbling is worth the effort.
The devs are looking at group needs and assessing how to provide for those needs and maintain the game that they have envisioned. Again...people can feel differently...and disagree with that direction completely and argue vehemently or dismissively about these changes...but they are coming... Someday™ and will be singularly 'Elite: Dangerous' in how they will work,
However, the one option that I do not foresee changing is the idea of ownership and the game having 'no go zones' created by players against the community. Being a player that has dealt with these issues with a large contingent of the community 'hating' against what I have been involved with on a group and alliance level....I would also be one of the first, and loudest, if I felt that this was ever going to occur. Any group with any sense of ownership or agency within the game should always 'sleep with one eye open'. Because that is how this game is designed.
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Hmm what benefits has a clan ?
Getting frequent partys for exp grinding, doin raids, doin PvP with support.
Disadvantages ?
You get told what to do, sometimes even if you dont want to do.
Have to be online at specific times, if the clan wants to do something and need ppl.
Have to join some Teamspeak or forums to get knowlege of specific clan events.
If a Clan has to much power it can rule over gameplay aspects in some games. By locking down aerias and player killing.
Did i mention politics ? Well thats the biggest b.....it of all.
Do wen need clans in ED ?
No, there is no multyplayer content for a large group and even Wing content is rather slim. Limited to fighting and trading.
Does a wing belong to a space sim? Yes
Basicly in a way this game already has given clans. You can decide between Empire, Federation, Alliance or indipendent.
If you want to plan things and do stuff with other ppl organise in powerplay.
Getting frequent partys for exp grinding, doin raids, doin PvP with support.
Disadvantages ?
You get told what to do, sometimes even if you dont want to do.
Have to be online at specific times, if the clan wants to do something and need ppl.
Have to join some Teamspeak or forums to get knowlege of specific clan events.
If a Clan has to much power it can rule over gameplay aspects in some games. By locking down aerias and player killing.
Did i mention politics ? Well thats the biggest b.....it of all.
Do wen need clans in ED ?
No, there is no multyplayer content for a large group and even Wing content is rather slim. Limited to fighting and trading.
Does a wing belong to a space sim? Yes
Basicly in a way this game already has given clans. You can decide between Empire, Federation, Alliance or indipendent.
If you want to plan things and do stuff with other ppl organise in powerplay.
People who want to own stations, here's an idea. Talk to FD about making a separate game "station manager" - they've made a few with similar concepts behind themBUT, have this one interact with the ED universe and BGS. You start on an outpost with few landing pads and only basic repair facilities. You're running the station, your first task is to get a market up and running.... You can't stop folks from docking and you don't control the "government" (ie the controlling faction) but you can, by your actions, impact their influence and the profitability of the station. Profitable stations get more attractive to ED pilots. VERY profitable stations get upgrades, better shipyards, maybe give you the option of triggering a construction CG to upgrade your outpost to a full coriolis...
It's a bit of a thread-jack so I'm not going to reply in too much detail, but the point about it being a "separate game" is that station managers are not members of the pilots federation, they are not even pilots. So if it is at all integrated with ED it would be a totally separate career path, a totally separate "name" and the same identity could never go from being a stationer to being a spacer. Just as pilots can indirectly manipulate the BGS by taking actions that favor one faction over another, so could station managers. They might not be around when factions flip and if the faction is hostile to this manager then perhaps he'll find himself transferred to another station... if he's accumulated enough credits to invest and kickstart the development of his new location he's still going to keep getting richer....
You sir, have limited imagination.
A. My clan does not tell me what to do, or make me be on at certain times, or any of the other stuff you mentioned. Radio discipline to make wings more efficient is the only thing that ever gets brought up as something you should be doing to increase everyone's enjoyment.
B. There is game material that is for large groups. My guild did a 3hr event with about 30 pilots, 8 wings and flipped 8 systems in Power Play, with pilots of all skill levels and across four Minor Factions/Major factions. 60000+ merits in 3 hrs. That you don't see that is your limitation, not Elite's or other players limitation.
While more support from standard Guild tools would help, the entire thing was the brainchild of our leadership, members, and executed with hard work by everyone.
ALL of it in OPEN, and not a single opposition pilot from the other side showed up in open. Not a single ship lost, not even the guy in the Orca... an Orca for undermining... I mean really...
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Lol i was in clans in different games. Some of the powerclans even want to force you to use scripts, bots or other cheating tools. Sure there are different clans that handle things different, but basicly ots a sum up from my clan exp.
So when you did that 3 hour event, you where not told what you should do ? Seems a bit hard to beleave doin a large scale event without coordination.
You did that even even without Clan tools, so why you need any in game ?
Oh by the way, you just did proove the disadvantage of large clans. Getting the game in the direction your clan wants to. Doin that by great force of 30 ppl. Any single player or just a wing of 4 ppl could not do anything about it.
Even if they try they will get shot down by 30 ppl. Sure its part of the game to flip systems in PP, anyway you just did proove what i did sum up.
Hmm so you actually did what i wrote at the end of my post. So your point was ?
So when you did that 3 hour event, you where not told what you should do ? Seems a bit hard to beleave doin a large scale event without coordination.
You did that even even without Clan tools, so why you need any in game ?
Oh by the way, you just did proove the disadvantage of large clans. Getting the game in the direction your clan wants to. Doin that by great force of 30 ppl. Any single player or just a wing of 4 ppl could not do anything about it.
Even if they try they will get shot down by 30 ppl. Sure its part of the game to flip systems in PP, anyway you just did proove what i did sum up.
Hmm so you actually did what i wrote at the end of my post. So your point was ?
If I took your last line as serious, I had to disregard everything else you said, as it contracted it.
Following instruction during a clan event was not your criteria, you are moving the goals around to be "right".
You said:
You get told what to do, sometimes even if you dont want to do.
Have to be online at specific times, if the clan wants to do something and need ppl.
Have to join some Teamspeak or forums to get knowlege of specific clan events.
None of those things happen. You can bow out of the event at any time and no one will say boo, they will just shuffle around people to the wings if needed.
Almost everyone uses Teamspeak, but that is because we enjoy talking while doing whatever, or we need to coordinate wings, but we do use in game comms too, if someone does not have TS ability for some reason.
Following instruction during a clan event was not your criteria, you are moving the goals around to be "right".
You said:
You get told what to do, sometimes even if you dont want to do.
Have to be online at specific times, if the clan wants to do something and need ppl.
Have to join some Teamspeak or forums to get knowlege of specific clan events.
None of those things happen. You can bow out of the event at any time and no one will say boo, they will just shuffle around people to the wings if needed.
Almost everyone uses Teamspeak, but that is because we enjoy talking while doing whatever, or we need to coordinate wings, but we do use in game comms too, if someone does not have TS ability for some reason.
So "shuffling around people" is not telling them what to do? Sounds like it to me. AndiBcool is correct.
30 players online in order to do the operation, sounds like people where told when to be online or are you implying that your clan has a continuous player base of 30+, doubt it. AndiBcool correct again.
Using Teamspeak for coordination of the operation. Jeez look at that, AndiBcool right again.
I'm thinking they all happened. BTW- I think you mean "Contradicted" not Contracted. Which is kind of ironic.
..apparently people hold guns to others heads and threaten their lives to make them do things against there wills...and force people to show up to do fun stuff together...and people have no recourse but to do these things because they cannot think for themselves enough to leave these horrendous people and find different people that do things they want to do..so, yeah...absolutely...I never want to see any clans in any more games...ever. I am now so scared that I am thinking about leaving all the friends and people that I have enjoyed playing with for the last 10-15 years...because, well, I might have done something against my will....
See I am right..
Seems so....clans are evil constructs that are controlling people, their thoughts, lives, and ability to think clearly about morality, and completely removes a persons ability to act with intelligence and free will.
Probably some kind of government brain washing, religious cult thing occurring around these things. Run....do not walk...away!
You guys are making me laugh, I appreciate the comedy! Making up definitions just to be contrarian and be "right".
Problem is, we are talking about two different things.
You might be right about other organizations, but not all guilds are same.
Remember, his criteria is "You get told what to do, sometimes even if you dont want to do."
Commanders technically don't have to do what is asked of them, it is organization, not commands. Coordination is required to do a group and we us tools to do it. Again, not required!
They are being told what they WANT to do, not what they don't want to do. A huge difference in a good group.
The commander can do it, or not do it, it is up to them. Obviously they can undermine or whatever on their own if they want, but most of us enjoy doing it together or we would not have joined in the first place.
But part of being in a team is being a team player. We have team players in the group, so generally people are considerably more reasonable than the two of you are. I doubt you would like it here, so why do you care?
Do you just not want people to do what you don't want to do?
We don't do that to our members, but you want to do it to others.
Interesting.
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No. No, we most certainly do not.
All clans/guilds/groups are (in my experience at least) are people trying to get you to play the game THEIR way and not yours. Be on at this time. Perform only this activity for your entire time logged in. Contribute so much to the guild/group/clan or be expelled and hunted down by the other members.
I heartily vote NO.
All clans/guilds/groups are (in my experience at least) are people trying to get you to play the game THEIR way and not yours. Be on at this time. Perform only this activity for your entire time logged in. Contribute so much to the guild/group/clan or be expelled and hunted down by the other members.
I heartily vote NO.
Wow, you join the wrong guilds.
Plus oh I don't know they could just leave??? I would imagine FD would put in a leave clan button?? Wouldn't they???
In saying this I know for a fact guilds/clans are just places for pure evil to develop and take over a game making it a horrible experience..
I hate the ones that sacrifice HOTASes (-i?) to Satin.
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Especially when they appear to have such a problem with free will and not having the ability to say no....they have me worried for my own safety! I mean they do point out that is very dangerous to leave those kinds of clans as they will kill them! I mean the game already is pretty evil in regards to that as PowerPlay does that...so PowerPlay must really be something to worry about...I guess I better stop playing that now! I really do thank these folks for showing me the problems I have been dealing with...I really never thought about these things before...and didn't realize how much of an imposition this was on my life.
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![[HJ]-RedRaven](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/67/67389.jpg?1553527112){kind=avatar}
Think what you will - clans, guilds, corps, whatever you want to call them are already in the game and are active.
Whether the game supports it natively or not, people can and do form groups, via external non FD-controlled websites et al.
Community-forming is a common human trait, and will occur despite FD or DBOBE policy.
The only way it will not happen is if FD closes the ED login servers.
Solo mode caters for the crowd who don't want to be part of a group; there they can be relieved from most forms of social interaction.
Whether the game supports it natively or not, people can and do form groups, via external non FD-controlled websites et al.
Community-forming is a common human trait, and will occur despite FD or DBOBE policy.
The only way it will not happen is if FD closes the ED login servers.
Solo mode caters for the crowd who don't want to be part of a group; there they can be relieved from most forms of social interaction.