We Need to be Better as a Community

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Careful Babel, the non-toxic community will immediately label you a white knight if you disagree with an OP!

And yes fully agree, too many post without thought or consequences here which (in my opinion) one of the reasons we rarely hear from Devs anymore. Why would they post when it is just about guaranteed someone will call them a liar or totally mis-interpret or ignore whatever the poor Dev says.

How is that not trade mark white knight behaviour? Shut up or ill be toxic at you? In case you can't see it there's another way.

Also yes we are non-toxic.

The devs would be here because they want to maintain interest in their game and by some more distant extension, their jobs. Its a fair exchange if you ask me.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

This forums been outright hostile towards people who like the game and dare to say so since around the launch of horizons.

You're forgetting a key step. The people who like the game reply to people who don't like the game dismissing them rudely to trigger the return hostility you're talking about. Its a little touchy for white knights i know, but ive been in at least long sections of topic discussion (before the white knights get triggered in) where people have just dropped differing opinions on the topic and kept it at that. It has happened!!! Differences without outright hostility. Its only when the white knights start apologising in that the personal attacks start, are responded to and make a mess of everything.

It will never make sense to me because i think good or bad opinions on "the game" are both good, and should be put out there. Some people only want to hear positive things though, and respond to non personal comments about a game.... as if it was a person... with personal attacks against a poster.. and then yeah if im around sure its on

 

[jasonbarron]

Oddly enough most of my rants dont result in moderation , there was one exception a couple of years back in the "sdc are quitting the game" thread, wierd though cause all i posted was a picture of 2 cowboys staring lovingly at each other with the caption "why cant i quit you" ... the funny part , it was moderated for "spam" .. SPAM? In the dangerous discussion forum? Its all i usually see here but meh .. brushed it off as an over reaction and lack of sense of humour.

I actually remember that post. Legendary.

 

[RevCaoticFox]

I posted this in response to another thread, but I think the message is important so I am making it a main thread also, was written in response to a new player who made a bit of a mistake about what he was saying then got a lot of negativity about it :

Having read a lot now of what has been posted in reply to your post, I have the following comments.

It is really not right all the toxicity you have had to endure, and I totally do not accept it. You made a mistake by thinking <whatever not really important>. You said on your post that you were just a casual player. All of the <> you are getting is not right. Just another example of toxicity on this forum. You made a mistake, so what? No excuse for nastiness from those who know better. And we have all been beginners/casual level at one point.

Cant we be better than this, as a community ?

How do you think the OP is going to feel, next time he wants to post something?

Maybe he is going to think twice about it now. Is that REALLY what we want? For voices to be silenced because of all the toxicity that gets thrown around? Because that is for sure what is happening. People need a VERY thick skin to stick around this forum. I know many CMDRs who just wont post here for that very reason, they are fed up with <> that gets thrown their way just for voicing opinion.

Now I am not going to call anyone out, I dont want to embarrass or provoke anyone, and I dont want to get yet another warning for "flaming" aka defending myself when toxicity gets thrown my way.

OP has been put into the "Victim's Dilemma", yet again. Harsh responses elicit both you and toxic poster get a warning and banned from posting to the thread for 3 days + posts removed. Do nothing and mods will just ignore those toxic comments. Happens a lot in life and I call it the "Victim's Dilemma". Someone does something to you and its not serious enough for authority to care but you do something back then you become the criminal and suddenly whole thing is taken seriously. It is a lose-lose scenario.

So what is the solution to all of this, in the context of the Elite: Dangerous official forum ?

The mods have no will to solve it. One can see on the very first page of this thread comments that are clearly disparaging to the OP and his post, and the next a post in response to this thread by a Mod. The moderation team read this comment yet chose to do nothing. Frontier knows these forums have a bad reputation for toxicity yet choose to do nothing.

It is up to us, THE COMMUNITY, to do what we can to solve this problem of chronic toxicity, and what I propose is this :

1. SPEAK UP. If you see someone being denigrated, tone policed, baited, insulted or any of the other words that just mean using words to hurt another person then : SAY SOMETHING. Say it is not right and that you do not agree with it. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with someone thence attacking the premise or logic of their arguments and attacking THAT PERSON as a person. They are alike, yet not alike. Confuse them not.

2. NO NAMING AND SHAMING. This does absolutely no good and just causes fights/flame wars. Dont do it. People might also have a good motive and just made a mistake in their wording, you dont know. Dont call people out, it is just repeating the whole cycle we are trying to break.

3. GIVE THE REASONS WHY TOXICITY ON THESE FORUMS IS A BAD THING
3.1 It is discouraging people from having a voice. Many people are thin skinned and end up banned or just leave these forums because of this. Every voice adds value.
3.2 It is giving these forums a bad reputation. People prefer to post on reddit or face book rather than here and who can blame them? We should be an example to other communities. Compare and contrast to Kerbal Space Program official forums.
3.3 It is causing a lot of anger and bad feeling. Many people who aught be fast friends because of strong shared interest and passion are falling out or getting enmity.
3.4 It makes the forums a generally nasty place, one must always wonder when posting how someone is going to attack, knowing any defence of oneself is likely to elicit a warning
3.5 I know most people dont give a dam about anyone but themselves. But for the odd few who are the exception, knowing the toxicity is upsetting people and making others unhappy aught be reason enough to want to clean these forums up.
3.6 And probably many, many other reasons, I leave it to the ingenium of the individual to work out, state of affairs is good for no-one.

And I know many people will say it cant be done, the will is not there, we wont get everyone on board, etc, etc. It only takes a few respected CMDRs to consistently lend voice when they notice toxicity for things to change for the better. As it was rightly said "One carat of diamond is worth several tons of sand; we dont need the majority". We should be an example in space sim community, not a toxic cess pit.

CMDR Gavin786

well stated, sir
+2

 

[M00ka]

You're forgetting a key step. The people who like the game reply to people who don't like the game dismissing them rudely to trigger the return hostility you're talking about. Its a little touchy for white knights i know, but ive been in at least long sections of topic discussion (before the white knights get triggered in) where people have just dropped differing opinions on the topic and kept it at that. It has happened!!! Differences without outright hostility. Its only when the white knights start apologising in that the personal attacks start, are responded to and make a mess of everything.

It will never make sense to me because i think good or bad opinions on "the game" are both good, and should be put out there. Some people only want to hear positive things though, and respond to non personal comments about a game.... as if it was a person... with personal attacks against a poster.. and then yeah if im around sure its on

Hang on for one moment - so it is okay in your book for people to say anything they want about the game, then outright dismissing anyone who dares disagrees with their opinion by labelling them 'white knight' and therefore not worthy of future input. How about your read a typical thread where someone is praising the game - normally within a few posts one of your cohorts jumps in telling the OP how wrong he is, how the game is doomed, how no one works on the game - well you know the tone. As for your final paragraph, that statement is quite laughable as it seems only 'bad opinions' are allowed, anything else is the dribbling's of rabid white knights.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Hang on for one moment - so it is okay in your book for people to say anything they want about the game, then outright dismissing anyone who dares disagrees with their opinion by labelling them 'white knight' and therefore not worthy of future input.

How about your read a typical thread where someone is praising the game - normally within a few posts one of your cohorts jumps in telling the OP how wrong he is, how the game is doomed, how no one works on the game - well you know the tone. As for your final paragraph, that statement is quite laughable as it seems only 'bad opinions' are allowed, anything else is the dribbling's of rabid white knights.

Yeah that's easy. If the person is plainly refusing to see anything good (seen that also) you just ignore it and the thread goes away by tomorrow. If the person is having a negative experience because they are missing some info, you get in there and help them. That's what i do, and the results are a bit of both.. some people enjoy learning something new and some people just ignore you going on doing what you said. You're technically behaving worse than they are by attacking people.

Also i completely disagree about it. People just have nothing positive to write about from the game and frontier, so its increasingly rare, but when people do say good things nearly always those threads are unmolested. If a topic has previously been controversial well of course, and apologetic behaviour, or rubbing frontier more than they deserve gets a chime too.

But shock horror you don't have to do personal attacks and be toxic or wish people to go away.

 

[ThePunisher]

Well to sum it up, the community in a nut shell is ok, but the constant cry of oh he is a carebear or look another ganker is just old and played out. First and really last , you bought the game with your own money correct, check mark cool. Then you can play the game how ever you like since its your game. If you dont like gankers cool , then get out there and hunt down your materials and like i always say a ship engineered for pvp is pve broken. Its not hard to survive a gank just by high waking out. The moral of the thread really is play the game your way, dont worry about gankers or being called a carebear. Just have fun , play the game and yes if you get ganked by 10 fdls then jump to another system if you can, alot of these players i see saying we dont play in open because of gankers is just rubbish. In the end open is not bad and you get killed quick because your not g5 yet which yes kinda sucks but hey get out there get your mats and get to getting a better ship set up.

 

[Stigbob]

You're forgetting a key step. The people who like the game reply to people who don't like the game dismissing them rudely to trigger the return hostility you're talking about. Its a little touchy for white knights i know, but ive been in at least long sections of topic discussion (before the white knights get triggered in) where people have just dropped differing opinions on the topic and kept it at that. It has happened!!! Differences without outright hostility. Its only when the white knights start apologising in that the personal attacks start, are responded to and make a mess of everything.

It will never make sense to me because i think good or bad opinions on "the game" are both good, and should be put out there. Some people only want to hear positive things though, and respond to non personal comments about a game.... as if it was a person... with personal attacks against a poster.. and then yeah if im around sure its on

Attacking people personally for apologising for the game seems OTT to me, especially in the games own dedicated forum. People have different subjective opinions of what's fun and what isn't. Nobody is ever going to perfectly align with your personal preferences so differences of opinion are going to be the norm and should be expected.

Expecting everyone else to be equally annoyed about something is clearly a misstep.

What happened after Horizons was exactly what you describe in your first paragraph, personal attacks on "apologists" just for being apologists. Video games are a fun hobby if you don't gravitate to the games you actually like and are enthusiastic about you'll never enjoy yourself, which seems to be missing the whole point of doing it in the first place.

Pebcak.

 

[babelfisch]

How is that not trade mark white knight behaviour? Shut up or ill be toxic at you? In case you can't see it there's another way.

Also yes we are non-toxic.

The devs would be here because they want to maintain interest in their game and by some more distant extension, their jobs. Its a fair exchange if you ask me.

As I said earlier, disagreeing with someone doesn't make it toxic. It's calling it toxic what makes it toxic...

 

[babelfisch]

But shock horror you don't have to do personal attacks and be toxic or wish people to go away.

In that case you should probably stop calling people white knights, which is both, a personal attack and toxic.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Attacking people personally for apologising for the game seems OTT to me, especially in the games own dedicated forum. People have different subjective opinions of what's fun and what isn't. Nobody is ever going to perfectly align with your personal preferences so differences of opinion are going to be the norm and should be expected.

Expecting everyone else to be equally annoyed about something is clearly a misstep.

What happened after Horizons was exactly what you describe in your first paragraph, personal attacks on "apologists" just for being apologists. Video games are a fun hobby if you don't gravitate to the games you actually like and are enthusiastic about you'll never enjoy yourself, which seems to be missing the whole point of doing it in the first place.

Pebcak.

There's a problem with apologising though it doesn't help the game. Its an adopted self image thing for white knights and frontier may or may not like people doing on their behalf we don't know. Its probably more damaging for them than helpful but imagine if there were no white knights, that would be bad too. Like the inquisition was to the catholic church etc (wow that's a topic last mentioned in the 90's).

Anyone who begins personal attacks is wrong. And by this i mean anyone who uses aggressive or worse language directed at another poster rather than something non human. Id be inclined to moderate that from the first attack down, because the attack is wrong and the response isn't needed either.

Contemporary fanaticism. Wonder if anyone has done a uni paper on it. Would be interesting to read.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

In that case you should probably stop calling people white knights, which is both, a personal attack and toxic.

Really? I don't think its toxic. Generally as long as there's a point to the discussion more than spitting toxicity that's okay. Also if you don't like something someone has written, you don't ignore it and instead just make rude remarks about and then by the end of your paragraph attack the person in response. That's where 90% of forum toxicity starts.

Sorry i got distracted on white knights again.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I like to intoxicate tho.

 

[Stigbob]

There's a problem with apologising though it doesn't help the game. Its an adopted self image thing for white knights and frontier may or may not like people doing on their behalf we don't know. Its probably more damaging for them than helpful but imagine if there were no white knights, that would be bad too. Like the inquisition was to the catholic church etc (wow that's a topic last mentioned in the 90's).

I never apologise for anything I don't need to. I'm totally unashamed of the fact that I like and enjoy the video game.

Constant griping doesn't help the game at all as nobody listens to it. Hence focussed feedback threads being specifically designed to filter out all the background whine.

Anyone who begins personal attacks is wrong. And by this i mean anyone who uses aggressive or worse language directed at another poster rather than something non human. Id be inclined to moderate that from the first attack down, because the attack is wrong and the response isn't needed either.

Aggresion over a video game isn't wrong its crazy and funny in equal measure.

Contemporary fanaticism. Wonder if anyone has done a uni paper on it. Would be interesting to read.

There's this article about the rise of toxicity in gaming, a lot of its linked directly to a lack of pre-purchase research followed by meltdowns and demands the game be immediately rewritten to fit innnacurate or even imaginary preconceptions.

The topic every game dev is talking about behind closed doors : The cost of doing business

Content warning : I’ve embedded some tweets to various developers that show the sorts of comments that they receive every day. There’s some…

medium.com

 

[Sir.Tj]

I'd like to point out at this point, that none of this is my fault.

 

[Vandaahl]

Sorry i got distracted on white knights again.

Ah no worries, apology accepted. You just got caught by your own bait Happens to the best of us.

I'd like to point out at this point, that none of this is my fault.

Reported, for blatant lying.

 

[M00ka]

Yeah that's easy. If the person is plainly refusing to see anything good (seen that also) you just ignore it and the thread goes away by tomorrow. If the person is having a negative experience because they are missing some info, you get in there and help them. That's what i do, and the results are a bit of both.. some people enjoy learning something new and some people just ignore you going on doing what you said. You're technically behaving worse than they are by attacking people.

Also i completely disagree about it. People just have nothing positive to write about from the game and frontier, so its increasingly rare, but when people do say good things nearly always those threads are unmolested. If a topic has previously been controversial well of course, and apologetic behaviour, or rubbing frontier more than they deserve gets a chime too.

But shock horror you don't have to do personal attacks and be toxic or wish people to go away.

no problem misery guts

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'd like to point out at this point, that none of this is my fault.

Yeah, you would like that, wouldn't you.

I would like to point out I'm a billionaire.Sucks to be us

 

[Morbad]

I would like to point out I'm a billionaire.Sucks to be us

In credits or Venezuelan Bolivars?

 

[Winterwalker]

In credits or Venezuelan Bolivars?

T9s full of pesos!? Lyra, surely ...