We need to increase speed and acceleration for EAGLE

[CMDR Cillian Raynor]

I agree that ideally there shouldn't be throwaway ships.


They should give at least one special advantage to every ship. Making Sidewinders better for smuggling was a start in the right direction though i feel they should have done that with one of the early transport like Hauler or Adder.

 

[Mohrgan]

It's not fair, nor conducive to a decent discussion to try and label people for their views. The next step is to dismiss what they say based on that label. Debate the arguments not the motivation for them. If the idea is strong enough you wouldn't need to classify the responses. I don't think you'll gain any points with the Dev's by pigeonholing players that respond here. When people don't agree with you, they just don't agree with you.
.
The low cost, disposable nature of the Eagle precludes any buffs. If you want the thrill of a dancer, like the Eagle, but with a design that hits with the big boys try a Vulture. I didn't want to bring that argument in, the thread is about the Eagle anyway, but I think it needs to be said. There are options available.

 

[Quineloe]

Don't forget fun, you definitely forgot fun. Considering it's stats it's only beaten in all quarters by the Vulture. If someone can get one of those within 2 days they either have Od'd on Red Bull or someone has dropped them some Palladium.

2 days in an eagle gets you a Viper. I've flown a lot in both, the Eagle clearly is not as much fun.

 

[Defacto]

It's not fair, nor conducive to a decent discussion to try and label people for their views. The next step is to dismiss what they say based on that label. Debate the arguments not the motivation for them. If the idea is strong enough you wouldn't need to classify the responses. I don't think you'll gain any points with the Dev's by pigeonholing players that respond here. When people don't agree with you, they just don't agree with you.
.
The low cost, disposable nature of the Eagle precludes any buffs. If you want the thrill of a dancer, like the Eagle, but with a design that hits with the big boys try a Vulture. I didn't want to bring that argument in, the thread is about the Eagle anyway, but I think it needs to be said. There are options available.

Yes, and one of the available options should be the Eagle. It should not be waste. It should not be a stepping stone, not just a throw-away ship. No one is asking for an Eagle that can truly compete on equal terms with Vultures and ferdelances, but I am asking for an Eagle that at least is moderately fast. An Eagle that at least has something to put to the table. No being a cheap throwaway stepping stone is not that, and being low cost does not preclude any buffs.

 

[Armour]

It would probably make sense for it to be faster and more agile than anything else, at the cost of having low power capacity and a glass hull. The problem is that the cheats would all just fly one and use infinite shield and weapons damage multiplier hacks.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Again, I think it can only be a preference for easy-mode ratting. For that there need to be useless victim ships. Like the shieldless lunatics that have been added to the game for some reason.

No, it's a preference for Elite gameplay. A game where each ship has its strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, and uniqueness. I've not yet heard a good argument as to why the cheapest disposable vehicle in the game (bar for the one you have handed to you for free) should be the fastest comparable with the 50 million crown of the combatants.

Ferdelances have vastly superior cargo carrying capability to an Eagle, so I don't see what your point there is.

His point is the risk/profit ratio. Engaging in piracy is a risky endeavour. You can always get your ship damaged one way or another. A Ferdelance have small cargo capacity (in fact it's not even "vastly superior" to an Eagle), and if outfitted properly for combat you might get 12 or so tons in there. Not only that, but they're extremely expensive to run and maintain. So even if you pirate successfully and scoop up a load of gold you're still not really making a good investment. While the Eagle isn't good for pirating (as Mr Hanks pointed out) the cost/reward ratio is considerably greater. I wouldn't take on a Lakon type 9 in one (I've kitted out mine with 5 turreted beams that will make short work of a non-chaff carrying Eagle) the can still take on smaller cargo vessels and, considering how much the Eagle is and how cheap it is to run, can turn a decent profit (relatively speaking).

You keep banging on about this, but one thing you keep completely avoiding is the issue of cost. Elite has always been about this, even back in 1984 when you were saving for your first military laser and wondering whether to buy the beam laser to use in the meantime or stick with the pulse laser until you amassed 6k. Now that online has been introduced people want to play Elite Arena and pew pew pew. It simply ain't that kinda' game.

I would love to see a Venn diagram showing the set of people against a faster Eagle, and the set of people against free switching between Open and Solo...

"People who disagree with me must suck!"

Yes. Not only do we suck completely, but our arguments are evidently not worth addressing either.

I agree that ideally there shouldn't be throwaway ships.


They should give at least one special advantage to every ship. Making Sidewinders better for smuggling was a start in the right direction though i feel they should have done that with one of the early transport like Hauler or Adder.

There are going to be 30 ships in this game. Please list the 30 special advantages for each one.

 

[hanks01]

Ferdelances have vastly superior cargo carrying capability to an Eagle, so I don't see what your point there is. Cobras have vastly superior firepower to an Eagle, and Cobras can also masslock Type 6 freighters (I think?).
I've flown a Cobra for about 3 months now. I've been fired upon by capital ship main batteries, station security guns, and 8 players at once. I've not lost my ship a single time. In Lugh I fought in a wing with an Eagle pilot (couldn't afford a ship that wasn't just a stepping stone ''noobie ship''), and any time enemy players attacked, they always went for him and immediatly obliterated the poor Eagle. He lost a lot of credits and only managed to get a few shared bonds (which he lost because he didn't manage to cash them in). When we had to retreat, he would also always get left behind and destroyed, because he was the slowest ship in the wing.

Unless they've changed it Cobra's can't masslock a Type 6, Asps can though. Has sparked a few debates in the past about the interdiction submission which FD are currently looking at. A difficult one to balance, how do you feed one group without starving the other, I don't envy them.

The Cobra is a great ship, it makes for a strong smuggler, bounty hunter, trader (for safety etc.) One of it's key features is one of the fastest top speeds in the game, it's a ship to feel safe in as it can outrun the majority of ships in the game.

Granted the FDL can carry more than an Eagle, but compartively not by much, and if you do aim to up the cargo space you really do leave yourself vulnerable to bounty hunters. An FDL can get shredded quite easily if not kitted for it's intention ie: combat. Whilst upgrading mine I've had several incidences where, in its weaker state, the shields dropped rather quickly and then the hull was shredded in short order.

Now, on to the point of the Eagle being shot down first. It's an interesting one in the game of who to attack first, the Eagle can distract the target ship whilst the Cobra deals damage, alternatively, if the Cobra is targeted then it can run whilst the Eagle works on the shields and/or components. When I come across a strong signal source and see 1 big ship and say... 2 small ships I have a quandry. Do I attack the big ship, as it's the largest threat or do I go for the small ships as they're easier to defeat but can still do damage.

This is one of the Eagle's strengths in a wing, it's hard to hit and can distract a target whilst everyone else goes to work on it. Alternatively they ignore and it's 3 small beams start stripping shields uninterrupted (and 3 beams are effective on shields.)

Whilst I don't want a "one ring to rule them all" ship, or the master sword that everyone uses, I also don't think the game needs to be World of Tanks where every craft has a use above all others.

 

[Mohrgan]

We disagree. The majority of ships stay competitive, but some ships just get outclassed. The whole family of the cheapest ships are stepping stones. People only use Sidewinders, Haulers, and even Adders to progress to larger ships, or for tasks that their low cost makes them attractive. To me, those are valid reasons, and the niche the ships were designed for. Letting an Eagle be a beginners ship suits it fine.

 

[Defacto]

We disagree. The majority of ships stay competitive, but some ships just get outclassed. The whole family of the cheapest ships are stepping stones. People only use Sidewinders, Haulers, and even Adders to progress to larger ships, or for tasks that their low cost makes them attractive. To me, those are valid reasons, and the niche the ships were designed for. Letting an Eagle be a beginners ship suits it fine.

An Eagle can still be a beginner ship. There are ways to balance ships so that getting the larger ships still seems more attractive. Increasing the speed of the Eagle to what was suggested in the OP is, IMO, one such way.
No, no ship should be a stepping stone.

Unless they've changed it Cobra's can't masslock a Type 6, Asps can though. Has sparked a few debates in the past about the interdiction submission which FD are currently looking at. A difficult one to balance, how do you feed one group without starving the other, I don't envy them.

The Cobra is a great ship, it makes for a strong smuggler, bounty hunter, trader (for safety etc.) One of it's key features is one of the fastest top speeds in the game, it's a ship to feel safe in as it can outrun the majority of ships in the game.

Granted the FDL can carry more than an Eagle, but compartively not by much, and if you do aim to up the cargo space you really do leave yourself vulnerable to bounty hunters. An FDL can get shredded quite easily if not kitted for it's intention ie: combat. Whilst upgrading mine I've had several incidences where, in its weaker state, the shields dropped rather quickly and then the hull was shredded in short order.

Now, on to the point of the Eagle being shot down first. It's an interesting one in the game of who to attack first, the Eagle can distract the target ship whilst the Cobra deals damage, alternatively, if the Cobra is targeted then it can run whilst the Eagle works on the shields and/or components. When I come across a strong signal source and see 1 big ship and say... 2 small ships I have a quandry. Do I attack the big ship, as it's the largest threat or do I go for the small ships as they're easier to defeat but can still do damage.

This is one of the Eagle's strengths in a wing, it's hard to hit and can distract a target whilst everyone else goes to work on it. Alternatively they ignore and it's 3 small beams start stripping shields uninterrupted (and 3 beams are effective on shields.)

Whilst I don't want a "one ring to rule them all" ship, or the master sword that everyone uses, I also don't think the game needs to be World of Tanks where every craft has a use above all others.

... or you could have 2 Cobras, instead of 1 Eagle and 1 Cobra, and that would be better in pretty much every circumstance. I don't get your point about that. It's certainly not some kind of ''strength'' of the Eagle.

No, it's a preference for Elite gameplay. A game where each ship has its strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, and uniqueness. I've not yet heard a good argument as to why the cheapest disposable vehicle in the game (bar for the one you have handed to you for free) should be the fastest comparable with the 50 million crown of the combatants.



His point is the risk/profit ratio. Engaging in piracy is a risky endeavour. You can always get your ship damaged one way or another. A Ferdelance have small cargo capacity (in fact it's not even "vastly superior" to an Eagle), and if outfitted properly for combat you might get 12 or so tons in there. Not only that, but they're extremely expensive to run and maintain. So even if you pirate successfully and scoop up a load of gold you're still not really making a good investment. While the Eagle isn't good for pirating (as Mr Hanks pointed out) the cost/reward ratio is considerably greater. I wouldn't take on a Lakon type 9 in one (I've kitted out mine with 5 turreted beams that will make short work of a non-chaff carrying Eagle) the can still take on smaller cargo vessels and, considering how much the Eagle is and how cheap it is to run, can turn a decent profit (relatively speaking).

You keep banging on about this, but one thing you keep completely avoiding is the issue of cost. Elite has always been about this, even back in 1984 when you were saving for your first military laser and wondering whether to buy the beam laser to use in the meantime or stick with the pulse laser until you amassed 6k. Now that online has been introduced people want to play Elite Arena and pew pew pew. It simply ain't that kinda' game.



"People who disagree with me must suck!"

Yes. Not only do we suck completely, but our arguments are evidently not worth addressing either.



There are going to be 30 ships in this game. Please list the 30 special advantages for each one.

Why should the Eagle be fast compared to a 50 million ship? You made a good point yourself about the game where each ship has its strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, and uniqueness. That is Elite for me, and in a universe where earning Credits like this is possible, a ship being cheap is hardly a real strength. Getting money is easy, just a function of time. Making ships inferior but cheap is only a way to demote those who do not have the cash to useless dregs, the ''noobies''. As said before, there's ways to balance the ship so that getting the large, expensive ones still is attractive, while the smaller, cheaper ships can find themselves useful, and, in some aspect of combat, superior, as they should.

Ship maintainance and repair costs were lowered. Ferdelances are not expensive to repair or maintain anymore. In a Ferdelance, you can also escape attackers. This is a great boon when it comes to not being destroyed and having to pay your rebuy.

If you're actually looking to profit, you're better off fitting a 4-tonne cargo rack to your Eagle and trading. Piracy really doesn't pay that much, especially not when you fly something only capable of dealing with ZP Haulers.

Edit: As per your request, I will list what I think should be the advantages of all currently existing ships and some of the planned ones:

Sidewinder - Superior Concealment, Superior inconspiciousness
Hauler - Superior Fuel Economy, Superior combined cargo capacity and concealment, Superior combined cargo capacity and inconspiciousness
Eagle - Superior Agility, Relatively high speed
Viper - Superior speed
Adder - Wow, I actually don't know, honestly. Poor ship, it's so in-between. Maybe something related to stealth?
Cobra Mk. III - Superior combined concealment and general combat ability, superior combined speed and jump range
Type 6 - Superior combined cargo capacity and fuel consumption, superior combined cargo capacity and station accessibility (medium size pads)
Asp Explorer - Superior Jump range
Vulture - Superior combined agility and firepower, superior combined agility and survivability
Type 7 - Superior combined cargo capacity and jump range
Type 9 - Superior cargo capacity
Ferdelance - Superior combined firepower and speed
Python - Superior combined cargo capacity and general combat ability
Imp. Clipper - Superior combined cargo capacity and speed
Anaconda - Superior combined cargo capacity and survivability, superior combined cargo capacity and firepower

 

[Mephane]

Why should the Eagle be fast compared to a 50 million ship? You made a good point yourself about the game where each ship has its strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, and uniqueness.

Because out of that list "strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, uniqueness", the eagle has a lot of weaknesses and shortcomings for what exactly? A slightly higher agility than the much more powerful Vulture, and that's it. Every single unique niche one might think about the Eagle could fill, is already filled by the Vulture (and most had already been filled by the Viper, too, before the Vulture's introduction).

 

[Defacto]

Because out of that list "strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, uniqueness", the eagle has a lot of weaknesses and shortcomings for what exactly? A slightly higher agility than the much more powerful Vulture, and that's it. Every single unique niche one might think about the Eagle could fill, is already filled by the Vulture (and most had already been filled by the Viper, too, before the Vulture's introduction).

Exactly. And there is a possible niche, the small speedy fighter with low thermal signature, and it's possible to make the Eagle fill this niche, by making it faster and a bit more stealthy, and it is possible to do this without making the larger ships, like the Vulture, less attractive.

The day I see an Eagle player in the combat size and do not think ''Poor noobie, he should grind bounties to get cash'' and the day I see an Eagle NPC and do not think ''What an idiot, why is it even trying to attack me?'' or ''Yay, extra quick combat bonds!'', that will be a good day for ED.

 

[Mephane]

The day I see an Eagle player in the combat size and do not think ''Poor noobie, he should grind bounties to get cash'' and the day I see an Eagle NPC and do not think ''What an idiot, why is it even trying to attack me?'' or ''Yay, extra quick combat bonds!'', that will be a good day for ED.

Or, as someone once remarked upon seeing an Elite NPC fly an Eagle, "he should fly an Anaconda" - no, he should totally fly an Eagle and be fearsome doing so.

 

[Defacto]

Or, as someone once remarked upon seeing an Elite NPC fly an Eagle, "he should fly an Anaconda" - no, he should totally fly an Eagle and be fearsome doing so.

It actually seems that Elite Eagle NPC's have quite a lot of extra stunts, at least that is what I experienced when fighting them. I've seen some NPC Eagles do completely crazy manuevers and in some cases, I can't say to this day what in the world they were doing... not that it helped them much though: Only prolonged their doom. It did actually force me to stop dogfighting them and start using my Cobra's speed instead, which is unusual for NPC's.

 

[Rall]

The Eagles is an old yet still capable (with upgrades) second line fighter, available in large quantities from military surplus.

It's the Northrop F-5 of the Elite Universe, it's fine. It fits the in game and lore role as a cheap entry level fighter. What we need to see is a Saab Gripen or Desult Rafale equivalent, a modern light fighter.

Personally I think we'll see this, Frontier adding a more costly high performance light fighter.

EDIT: I'd love to see an in game fighter based on the look of either the Draken of Vigen.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Because out of that list "strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, uniqueness", the eagle has a lot of weaknesses and shortcomings for what exactly?

A price tag that is 5000 times cheaper than the FDL.

Exactly. And there is a possible niche, the small speedy fighter with low thermal signature, and it's possible to make the Eagle fill this niche, by making it faster and a bit more stealthy, and it is possible to do this without making the larger ships, like the Vulture, less attractive.

That's a good idea actually. Just bump the price to 2 mil and you've got yourself a winner!

What you're asking for is a ship that hasn't been built yet, but would be fun and good for the game. But what the game really does need now, and always will, is a trainer up from the starting ship that can be used somewhat recklessly without serious consequences.

Personally I think we'll see this, Frontier adding a more costly high performance light fighter.

EDIT: I'd love to see an in game fighter based on the look of either the Draken of Vigen.

Amen to that!

 

[Defacto]

The Eagles is an old yet still capable (with upgrades) second line fighter, available in large quantities from military surplus.

It's the Northrop F-5 of the Elite Universe, it's fine. It fits the in game and lore role as a cheap entry level fighter. What we need to see is a Saab Gripen or Desult Rafale equivalent, a modern light fighter.

Personally I think we'll see this, Frontier adding a more costly high performance light fighter.

EDIT: I'd love to see an in game fighter based on the look of either the Draken of Vigen.

No one is asking to make the Eagle a beast fighter that can stand up to Vultures and Ferdelances. What some of us are asking for, is for the Eagle to have some purpose beyond a cheap stepstone ''noob ship'', because we believe this would be a positive development, that would help enrich the game and how the various ships play against each other in the game. This might be accomplished by raising the speed of the Eagle. Even then, there still would be plenty of reasons to keep using the larger fighters.

The most Draken-like fighter I know of from previous Elites is probably the Falcon. I'm not sure if that ship ever will be flyable, though: It was pretty old even back in FE2, and it's really small, I think that it is more comparable to a Condor than an Eagle. It might be something that we could see as naval fighters for independent nations in the future, basically the non-aligned factions' Condors.

A price tag that is 5000 times cheaper than the FDL.



That's a good idea actually. Just bump the price to 2 mil and you've got yourself a winner!

What you're asking for is a ship that hasn't been built yet, but would be fun and good for the game. But what the game really does need now, and always will, is a trainer up from the starting ship that can be used somewhat recklessly without serious consequences.



Amen to that!

2 mil is about the price of a fully fitted Eagle. Winner!
A low-fitted Eagle has low repurchase cost, and fits your description of a ''trainer'' not only now, but also after the proposed speed increase.

Once again though: I don't really see the point of this price discussion. Not when earning money works like this.

 

[FuzzySpider]

No one is asking to make the Eagle a beast fighter that can stand up to Vultures and Ferdelances. What some of us are asking for, is for the Eagle to have some purpose beyond a cheap stepstone ''noob ship'', because we believe this would be a positive development, that would help enrich the game and how the various ships play against each other in the game. This might be accomplished by raising the speed of the Eagle. Even then, there still would be plenty of reasons to keep using the larger fighters.

But the game needs a cheap stepstone "noob ship". Why promote the Eagle rather than create a new ship?

2 mil is about the price of a fully fitted Eagle. Winner!
A low-fitted Eagle has low repurchase cost, and fits your description of a ''trainer'' not only now, but also after the proposed speed increase.

Yes, completely take what someone said and distort the actual point made. You don't buy ships fully fitted. In fact fully fitted ships are always many magnitudes greater in cost than the original base ship was. A fully capable light combat fight to be comparable to the Vulture and Ferdi I'd expect 2 to 2.5 mill to be the base price, and about 15-20 mil for a complete A-grade outfitting. Something like this would be unbelievably deadly to cobras, asps, vipers and every hauler out there, so you'd really need to put it out of easy reach and have a highish rebuy price on its destruction.

Once again though: I don't really see the point of this price discussion. Not when earning money works like this.

Of course you don't see the point; price is a massive flaw in your argument that the Eagle is unbalanced.

 

[hanks01]

... or you could have 2 Cobras, instead of 1 Eagle and 1 Cobra, and that would be better in pretty much every circumstance. I don't get your point about that. It's certainly not some kind of ''strength'' of the Eagle.



Why should the Eagle be fast compared to a 50 million ship? You made a good point yourself about the game where each ship has its strengths, weaknesses, values, shortcomings, and uniqueness. That is Elite for me, and in a universe where earning Credits like this is possible, a ship being cheap is hardly a real strength. Getting money is easy, just a function of time. Making ships inferior but cheap is only a way to demote those who do not have the cash to useless dregs, the ''noobies''. As said before, there's ways to balance the ship so that getting the large, expensive ones still is attractive, while the smaller, cheaper ships can find themselves useful, and, in some aspect of combat, superior, as they should.

Ship maintainance and repair costs were lowered. Ferdelances are not expensive to repair or maintain anymore. In a Ferdelance, you can also escape attackers. This is a great boon when it comes to not being destroyed and having to pay your rebuy.

Well 2 Cobras may be better than 1 Cobra and 1 Eagle, just as 2 FDLs would be better than 2 Cobras. Doesn't mean that 1 Cobra and 1 Eagle doesn't have any value in the world of Elite.

If you make all ships excel in one thing that no other ship can excel in then there is no point to credits. You say making money is easy yet takes time, and time is valuable, thus getting large amounts of wedge isn't really easy in the context of time to credits. Seeing as I've lost 2 FDLs in 3 days, staying in that ship is obviously not a cakewalk. Why should the Eagle suddenly have an "I escape" button when it can cost less than the 6 tons of gold it can carry.

To reiterate my previous point, Elite doesn't need to be World of Tanks, or any other multiplayer game where the battlefield needs to be level at all times. Nor does it need 1 "I win" ship to rule them all. The current balance seems right to me and making the ships that cost comparative pennies as safe as the ones that cost millions is really unnecessary.

To build on what a previous poster said in this thread. The Eagle is a giant pain in the backside to dogfight as it is. If it can suddenly tap you up then run out of range whenever it feels like it, it's just going to be purely frustrating and will give the gankers something to irritate anyone that tries to stop them due to its low price point and rebuy.

 

[Defacto]

But the game needs a cheap stepstone "noob ship". Why promote the Eagle rather than create a new ship?



Yes, completely take what someone said and distort the actual point made. You don't buy ships fully fitted. In fact fully fitted ships are always many magnitudes greater in cost than the original base ship was. A fully capable light combat fight to be comparable to the Vulture and Ferdi I'd expect 2 to 2.5 mill to be the base price, and about 15-20 mil for a complete A-grade outfitting. Something like this would be unbelievably deadly to cobras, asps, vipers and every hauler out there, so you'd really need to put it out of easy reach and have a highish rebuy price on its destruction.



Of course you don't see the point; price is a massive flaw in your argument that the Eagle is unbalanced.

No, this game does not need a cheap inferior ''noob ship'' that is inferior in every way because it is cheap.

What I think this game needs is a cheap fighter, that might not be capable of standing up against the large fighters, but has parts that shine. A ship that tells its ''noobie'' pilot: ''Sure, this isn't the biggest, baddest fighting ship. But do you know what? This isn't some kind of standard MMORPG where your actions mean null because you are a low-level dreg that doesn't matter. This is Elite, and you are the commander of an interstellar spacecraft, and the whole galaxy is your oyster, and you can take this ship, and blaze your own trail and make a mark on the stars, and then, when you can afford it, you can switch to the big fighting ships. If you want. If you dare.'' That is Elite. Having an inferior noob ship that is just there to prolong the journey from a beginner to someone that actually can do something ''real'' is not Elite. Not for me, at least.

I think your massive flaw is that you think of Credits as something that is hard to get. If earning money was hard, then, maybe, the balance you seem to suggest would be possible. Earning money is not hard.

Well 2 Cobras may be better than 1 Cobra and 1 Eagle, just as 2 FDLs would be better than 2 Cobras. Doesn't mean that 1 Cobra and 1 Eagle doesn't have any value in the world of Elite.

If you make all ships excel in one thing that no other ship can excel in then there is no point to credits. You say making money is easy yet takes time, and time is valuable, thus getting large amounts of wedge isn't really easy in the context of time to credits. Seeing as I've lost 2 FDLs in 3 days, staying in that ship is obviously not a cakewalk. Why should the Eagle suddenly have an "I escape" button when it can cost less than the 6 tons of gold it can carry.

To reiterate my previous point, Elite doesn't need to be World of Tanks, or any other multiplayer game where the battlefield needs to be level at all times. Nor does it need 1 "I win" ship to rule them all. The current balance seems right to me and making the ships that cost comparative pennies as safe as the ones that cost millions is really unnecessary.

To build on what a previous poster said in this thread. The Eagle is a giant pain in the backside to dogfight as it is. If it can suddenly tap you up then run out of range whenever it feels like it, it's just going to be purely frustrating and will give the gankers something to irritate anyone that tries to stop them due to its low price point and rebuy.

The gankers can use Cobras. This would be superior even with the speed-buffed Eagles, because the Cobra would be capable of achieving nearly the same speed while being a lot more durable.

WoT has pretty straight tiered progression and then matchmaking. A lot of people do speak of ED ships in ''tiers''.
However, at the same time, a lot of the ships in ED are balanced so that they at least have some niche to excel in. The Eagle: Not so much. No, being cheap and throwaway is not a niche to excel in.

But then, no one is suggesting the battlefield to be level. What some of us are suggesting is for every combat ship to have some niche or capability to excel in. I would say that is very unlike WoT's tiered matchmaking system, unless you look at the balance in a specific tier as it's own little balance system.

 

[Rall]

No, this game does not need a cheap inferior ''noob ship'' that is inferior in every way because it is cheap.

What I think this game needs is a cheap fighter, that might not be capable of standing up against the large fighters, but has parts that shine. A ship that tells its ''noobie'' pilot: ''Sure, this isn't the biggest, baddest fighting ship. But do you know what? This isn't some kind of standard MMORPG where your actions mean null because you are a low-level dreg that doesn't matter. This is Elite, and you are the commander of an interstellar spacecraft, and the whole galaxy is your oyster, and you can take this ship, and blaze your own trail and make a mark on the stars, and then, when you can afford it, you can switch to the big fighting ships. If you want. If you dare.'' That is Elite. Having an inferior noob ship that is just there to prolong the journey from a beginner to someone that actually can do something ''real'' is not Elite. Not for me, at least.

I think your massive flaw is that you think of Credits as something that is hard to get. If earning money was hard, then, maybe, the balance you seem to suggest would be possible. Earning money is not hard.

But that's how it's been positioned in the game, an out of porduction, second line surplus fighter. It's an old design, and it doesn't hold up against the moden fighters. Changing it and you need to change the lore and go against Frontiers cannon, so I don't see to happening.

You really are better off campaigning for a small fast light fighter to complement the eagle, not replace it.