What if... [Separate PvP/PvE Theory]

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Please don't lock me.

I had a random idea the other day, I don't actually want FD to do it, it'd be far too much work, so I'm not officially suggesting it. But I felt like sharing, purely for discussion purposes.
I was going to pop it in the Hotel California thread, but I don't really think it's fits there. And it would probably get ignored. Lol

Anyhow, I shall begin.

PvP and PvE Do Not Mix
This is pretty obvious to anyone who does either. PvP is generally about pure combat, maximum damage in a short time, etc. PvP ships are generally tuned to the absolute maximum to compete. (More or less).
PvE is generally about endurance, sticking around in a Res for hours, etc, and basically being able to multitask, even dedicated PvE combat ships are quite different to PvP.
So, they don't mix well. A PvP ship is nearly always going to outmatch a PvE equivalent.
PvE could also be incredibly more ridiculous if PvP wasn't possible. And PvP could be balanced to perfection* without annoying the rest of the community who don't do PvP, and don't want their ships/weapons nerfed or changed again.

*Well, as close as possible.

So random idea time!

Split the Game in Two
Crazy, but listen.
Have one game galaxy, with separate CMDR slot, for the PvP galaxy, and another for PvE galaxy.
And two mostly different galaxies (BGS can be shared I think..?).
It's not just Open PvE and Open PvP. It's an entirely different set of rules for each.

The PvP enabled galaxy has different weapon stats, ship stats and module stats, etc than the PvE galaxy. In the PvP realm, weapons, ships and modules are perfectly balanced to all be a viable choice. It's a tough world, but it's pretty much the one we live in now, because PvP exists, everything needs to be balanced around it.

In the PvE world, you get to be more creative. Torpedoes can be made useful for PvE, for example, with more ammo, more damage, etc. We can get class 4 Railguns that obliterate small ships in 1 shot. And generally stuff that would unbalance PvP, can be made real here.
Modules that would be used for general greifing can exist. Like Limpets that slow down targets, or prevent FSDs charging completely, etc.

When private groups are created, you have to select which version of the galaxy you'd link it too. Only CMDRs from the same galaxy can join.

And you can't switch your CMDR between the two galaxies.

Anyhoo, it won't happen, and I don't really want it too. It'd take far too much effort to maintain two versions of the same game.

Let's discuss!

Or be immediately locked. Lol

Would it work? What galaxy would you pick?

I'd personally pick PvE galaxy. I'm not a fan of PvP anyway, and i really want class 4 Railguns. Or some other super weapon that would break the game normally. Lol

(But I'm perfectly happy with the game as it is!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[sb413197]

Please don't lock me.

I had a random idea the other day, I don't actually want FD to do it, it'd be far too much work, so I'm not officially suggesting it. But I felt like sharing, purely for discussion purposes.
I was going to pop it in the Hotel California thread, but I don't really think it's fits there. And it would probably get ignored. Lol

Anyhow, I shall begin.

PvP and PvE Do Not Mix
This is pretty obvious to anyone who does either. PvP is generally about pure combat, maximum damage in a short time, etc. PvP ships are generally tuned to the absolute maximum to compete. (More or less).
PvE is generally about endurance, sticking around in a Res for hours, etc, and basically being able to multitask, even dedicated PvE combat ships are quite different to PvP.
So, they don't mix well. A PvP ship is nearly always going to outmatch a PvE equivalent.
PvE could also be incredibly more ridiculous if PvP wasn't possible. And PvP could be balanced to perfection* without annoying the rest of the community who don't do PvP, and don't want their ships/weapons nerfed or changed again.

*Well, as close as possible.

So random idea time!

Split the Game in Two
Crazy, but listen.
Have one game galaxy, with separate CMDR slot, for the PvP galaxy, and another for PvE galaxy.
And two mostly different galaxies (BGS can be shared I think..?).
It's not just Open PvE and Open PvP. It's an entirely different set of rules for each.

The PvP enabled galaxy has different weapon stats, ship stats and module stats, etc than the PvE galaxy. In the PvP realm, weapons, ships and modules are perfectly balanced to all be a viable choice. It's a tough world, but it's pretty much the one we live in now, because PvP exists, everything needs to be balanced around it.

In the PvE world, you get to be more creative. Torpedoes can be made useful for PvE, for example, with more ammo, more damage, etc. We can get class 4 Railguns that obliterate small ships in 1 shot. And generally stuff that would unbalance PvP, can be made real here.
Modules that would be used for general greifing can exist. Like Limpets that slow down targets, or prevent FSDs charging completely, etc.

When private groups are created, you have to select which version of the galaxy you'd link it too. Only CMDRs from the same galaxy can join.

And you can't switch your CMDR between the two galaxies.

Anyhoo, it won't happen, and I don't really want it too. It'd take far too much effort to maintain two versions of the same game.

Let's discuss!

Or be immediately locked. Lol

Would it work? What galaxy would you pick?

I'd personally pick PvE galaxy. I'm not a fan of PvP anyway, and i really want class 4 Railguns. Or some other super weapon that would break the game normally. Lol

(But I'm perfectly happy with the game as it is!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Overall seems like too much work to completely redo the game for different galaxies.

I do wonder sometimes though if disallowing mode switches might be a good thing. I.e. Your commander either lives in the open universe or in solo. And solo could be either offline or at least not effect the BGS (or maybe have a separate solo BGS and universe entirely). Because the lack of mixing you bring up actually is a pretty good point.

 

[Mohrgan]

Tinkering with access to the BGS is a nonstarter.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

I dont think the devide between PVP and PVE is that binary. I engage in both and know what to expect from other players in any given location or circumstance. ED has its own street wisdom.

Players already join Mobius for a PvE experiance, Private groups and Solo if they want to avoid the apparent rigors of open. But they can if they choose hop onto open for a more social and risky experiance.

What you are suggesting is a HARD division of the player base. Ships and assetts will be locked within their host instance. You couldnt bring a PvE ship into a PVP galaxy and visa versa.

On this forum we already have Ps4...Xbox..PC as divided members of the community, This would add yet more sub divisions in the community all for the sake of avoiding combat with other players when we are all expecting the release of a Crime and punishment system (eventually) that will hopefully ballance the game and put to bed the old complaint of... 'he sploded my ship, i feel violated'..

This game needs mechanics that unite players, not segregate them more. The Sectarian attitudes of the player base as it stands is something that needs to be fixed. We are all Elite Dangerous players.

 

[CMDR Argo]

I dont think the devide between PVP and PVE is that binary. I engage in both and know what to expect from other players in any given location or circumstance. ED has its own street wisdom.

Players already join Mobius for a PvE experiance, Private groups and Solo if they want to avoid the apparent rigors of open. But they can if they choose hop onto open for a more social and risky experiance.

What you are suggesting is a HARD division of the player base. Ships and assetts will be locked within their host instance. You couldnt bring a PvE ship into a PVP galaxy and visa versa.

On this forum we already have Ps4...Xbox..PC as divided members of the community, This would add yet more sub divisions in the community all for the sake of avoiding combat with other players when we are all expecting the release of a Crime and punishment system (eventually) that will hopefully ballance the game and put to bed the old complaint of... 'he sploded my ship, i feel violated'..

This game needs mechanics that unite players, not segregate them more. The Sectarian attitudes of the player base as it stands is something that needs to be fixed. We are all Elite Dangerous players.

This is where PvP flags works as an option, those who want to PvP then let them volunteer to set it themselves giving that option, to those who want to play a straight game with no PvP then don't set the flag, that way we can all coexist in the same game frame. Caveat is when you do faction you have to turn on PvP. With the special faction weapons, put a different mechanic in to get those. where you have to complete a separate set of mission requirements so those are not tied specifically to PvP.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

This is where PvP flags works as an option, those who want to PvP then let them volunteer to set it themselves giving that option, to those who want to play a straight game with no PvP then don't set the flag, that way we can all coexist in the same game frame. Caveat is when you do faction you have to turn on PvP. With the special faction weapons, put a different mechanic in to get those. where you have to complete a separate set of mission requirements so those are not tied specifically to PvP.

Players will on and off that flag as it suits them and it will be used generally as an impunity cloak to harrass and avoid consequence.

The community needs to police itself and to do that we need a well designed C&P system.

--

Im not getting involved in this discussion any further, because its been argued ad nauseam..... and im quite frankly bored of it.
Fdev have stated that a C&P system is incoming, and that is good news. once we have an idea of how it works then we start poking holes in it and suggesting how to patch those holes.

But more of this.... divide the game into subsets, give people magical powers in game to go invisible or invulnerable have been argued out and no one likes them.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Technically, it's not dividing the community again, it's allow multiple CMDRs, across different rule sets. You'd be welcome to have 2 CMDRs, one in each world.

I don't do PvP, as I've stated, (no incentives), but I'd quite happily have my main CMDR in PvE world, with ridiculous super weapons, teaming up with other like minded CMDRs, taking on endless waves of Thargoids, of whatever, and investigate stuff and meet random strangers without worrying they're gonna meta kill me to death. Lol
But I'd also run a second CMDR on the PvP galaxy, where I'd more actively engage in PvP, go to the hot spots, learn the techniques, etc, without risking to crippling losses of losing the ridiculous mega expensive overpowered PvE ship from the other galaxy.

Technically I could just do the same by buying a second account, but that would be without the ridiculous super weapons, and PvE focused modules.

I do get that it's a silly idea.
But that's the fun of a discussion, doesn't have to be serious.

Basically, I want silly super weapons.
But PvP doesn't allow for super weapons, they become nerfed to normal weapons... Hence, separate PvP and PvE.

There's logic in there somewhere.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[babelfisch]

I would be against seperating PvP and PvE and think both could work together in the same galaxy. What would be needed is removing PvP loadouts and engineers completely. Make it so that a Trader + Ship launched fighter could fight a dedicated combat vessel. He wouldn't win (unless he is very skilled) but perhaps survive long enough until police arrives. The game would be about skill rather than the best loadout. It would also be about emergent gameplay rather than popping other ships for the lolz. Remove SCBs, HRPs, MRPs, SBs, Engineers and buff Trade ships by giving them more turrets, better shields, etc.

That's also the only way to fix the game in my opinion.

 

[Thetele]

I would prefer only one mode that has 2 kind of areas. Some areas are pve only, then some areas are pvp only. All are in same mode same bgs, just in some system player to player damage is turned off and on other areas player to player damage is turned on. Then you can balance so for example some pve areas have easy npc but low rewards other pve area has hard npcs and high rewards etc.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

This is definitely the last game I bought that throws PvE and PvP into one bucket.

 

[znôrt]

pve and pvp can indeed mix to great effect if done well.

you can have pve only in highly protected areas, and pve in pvp territory for increased risk and reward.

as for weapon balance, you don't need a separate model for each mode, that's player choice.

in elite the problem is not the mixing of pve and pvp, but the network infrastructure making protect/revenge actions next to impossible thus limiting the gameplay to duels or random ganking (roleplayed or not).

frontier did try to add meaningful pvp gameplay with power play, i.e. reasons and places for players of different factions to clash. and it could have been fun but it never worked because of the same problem: any consequence can be avoided by combat logging or even doing the thing in solo. bounty hunting of course never worked either.

want to fix pvp? start with a proper network architecture or any effort is wasted.

 

[Stealthie]

The whole point of ED, as opposed to playing something like Evochron Mercenary, is that you get to be in a social environment with other people.

If I'm out walking my dog, I enjoy speaking to people, I enjoy letting my dog play with other dogs and I enjoy learning about places other people walk their dogs.
I don't enjoy meeting groups of glue-sniffing oiks, having to dodge kamikaze cyclists or getting mugged.
That doesn't mean I want to move to a remote island and walk my dog in complete isolation though, because I DO enjoy all those other things.
I'm still going to moan about the glue-sniffers, lycra louts and muggers though.

Similar thing applies in ED.

Also, are we to assume that in the "PvE galaxy", players simply wouldn't be able to harm each other?
If they could, what's to stop players indulging in PvP?
If they couldn't, what's to stop another player from screwing up your game by attacking friendly or mission-critical NPC ships without fear of reprisal?

Simple fact is that you will ALWAYS get a minority of people who play a game with the sole objective of being a tool and you have to ask yourself how any proposal might be abused by the tools.
Just 'cos you designate something "PvE mode", you're still going to get tools trying it on, either by attacking other players or attacking NPCs in order to sabotage another player's game.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

The whole point of ED, as opposed to playing something like Evochron Mercenary, is that you get to be in a social environment with other people.

If I'm out walking my dog, I enjoy speaking to people, I enjoy letting my dog play with other dogs and I enjoy learning about places other people walk their dogs.
I don't enjoy meeting groups of glue-sniffing oiks, having to dodge kamikaze cyclists or getting mugged.
That doesn't mean I want to move to a remote island and walk my dog in complete isolation though, because I DO enjoy all those other things.
I'm still going to moan about the glue-sniffers, lycra louts and muggers though.

Similar thing applies in ED.

Also, are we to assume that in the "PvE galaxy", players simply wouldn't be able to harm each other?
If they could, what's to stop players indulging in PvP?
If they couldn't, what's to stop another player from screwing up your game by attacking friendly or mission-critical NPC ships without fear of reprisal?

Simple fact is that you will ALWAYS get a minority of people who play a game with the sole objective of being a tool and you have to ask yourself how any proposal might be abused by the tools.
Just 'cos you designate something "PvE mode", you're still going to get tools trying it on, either by attacking other players or attacking NPCs in order to sabotage another player's game.

I'd love a remote island. Lol
My (now parents) dogs wouldn't mind too much, one of them doesn't like dogs, the other loves everything, but is also too stupid to notice there are no other dogs to play with. If the island was only populated by dogs, I'd be in heaven. Lol

As for PvE players still ruining life for other PvE players, that'll happen.
In other games, players used to argo loads of enemies and drag them in hordes to unsuspecting victims. Lol

The much mentioned, and much hated (by me anyway) "PvP flag", is actually a terrible idea. It makes no sense to be invulnerable randomly.
(Neither does having a mode where we can't hurt eachother, but shhhh. )

Like others said, a better system is PvP free zones, where cops have an uncanny ability to arrive just as trouble starts, with OP weapons, and then end the trouble.
Of course, that can be gamed by flying in to victims line of fire too.
It only worked in Eve Online because it's impossible to do friendly fire, or it was when I last played anyway.

Anyhoo, back around to my silly idea.

I don't know how many of your scour the suggestions forum like I do, but it's remarkable how many seemingly good ideas, are immediately shot down because "they'd be a trolls perfect tool". I've even had to tell people that their idea would be just used by trolls.
My idea is basically aimed at that. Still not saying it's a good idea. Just an idea.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[ThriveInDark]

This is where PvP flags works as an option, those who want to PvP then let them volunteer to set it themselves giving that option, to those who want to play a straight game with no PvP then don't set the flag, that way we can all coexist in the same game frame. Caveat is when you do faction you have to turn on PvP. With the special faction weapons, put a different mechanic in to get those. where you have to complete a separate set of mission requirements so those are not tied specifically to PvP.

Eh, if you read the description on the steam store page all it talks about is Galactic War, and the word cutthroat is in every paragraph, so to me it is fight or flee depending on loadout but deaths are to be expected. Wanna max your cargo and run some ridiculously small shield generator on your big, slow, unarmed, floating chunk of bait? Ok, but I'm not gonna feel bad for you when you get nuked with a hull full of cargo for a big net loss. That's a "cutthroat galaxy". Protecting your investment occurs in the Outfitting menu boys and girls.

If this game gets any safer the only danger will be a false advertising lawsuit.

 

[babelfisch]

Eh, if you read the description on the steam store page all it talks about is Galactic War, and the word cutthroat is in every paragraph, so to me it is fight or flee depending on loadout but deaths are to be expected. Wanna max your cargo and run some ridiculously small shield generator on your big, slow, unarmed, floating chunk of bait? Ok, but I'm not gonna feel bad for you when you get nuked with a hull full of cargo for a big net loss. That's a "cutthroat galaxy". Protecting your investment occurs in the Outfitting menu boys and girls.

If this game gets any safer the only danger will be a false advertising lawsuit.

All of this works - wait for it - without PvP. You don't even have a point.

Anyway, being competitive via outfitting in PvP means to stop playing the game as it was intended. No more trading, mining and exploring. You can't play the game and PvP at the same time with the same ship, which is the basic flaw. Without addressing it no solution can be found.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Anyway, being competitive via outfitting in PvP means to stop playing the game as it was intended. No more trading, mining and exploring. You can't play the game and PvP at the same time with the same ship, which is the basic flaw.

The same is true of mining, trading and exploring, though - you can build some ships to do all three at once (with enough internals), but it won't be very good at any of them compared to a dedicated build.

 

[Susanna]

I dont think the devide between PVP and PVE is that binary. I engage in both and know what to expect from other players in any given location or circumstance. ED has its own street wisdom.

Players already join Mobius for a PvE experiance, Private groups and Solo if they want to avoid the apparent rigors of open. But they can if they choose hop onto open for a more social and risky experiance.

What you are suggesting is a HARD division of the player base. Ships and assetts will be locked within their host instance. You couldnt bring a PvE ship into a PVP galaxy and visa versa.

On this forum we already have Ps4...Xbox..PC as divided members of the community, This would add yet more sub divisions in the community all for the sake of avoiding combat with other players when we are all expecting the release of a Crime and punishment system (eventually) that will hopefully ballance the game and put to bed the old complaint of... 'he sploded my ship, i feel violated'..

This game needs mechanics that unite players, not segregate them more. The Sectarian attitudes of the player base as it stands is something that needs to be fixed. We are all Elite Dangerous players.

Well Said! Reped. [yesnod]

 

[Susanna]

I'd love a remote island. Lol
My (now parents) dogs wouldn't mind too much, one of them doesn't like dogs, the other loves everything, but is also too stupid to notice there are no other dogs to play with.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

I thought you were talking about your parents there for a moment...

 

[imski]

How about upping the utility hard points for dedicated trading ships that would allow them to equip extra counter measures, shield boosters and point defence?

Just make it harder to pop them, without them having to gimp their trading ability? Maybe even HRP's.

After all if your clientele weren't able to trade, ship manufacturers would provide options to allow them survive longer, in a real world scenario we can't hop into a private group or go solo only.

Eta: Splitting the galaxy is a terrible idea. Two sets of balancing issues? Doubling the testing workload isn't smart.

 

[Cervantes01]

Lots of games manage the whole pvp/pve thing really well, I don't think that ED is that different to lots of other mmo's out there. I know and fully understand that when I log in and select 'open' that there's a chance I might run into someone that wants to kill me, hell I might even want to kill them. I'm not an ace combat pilot I usually run trade ships and carry cargo, but even then I select 'open' as only player characters in an mmo have a genuine capacity to surprise you and behave in a way that isn't predictable. Whether I win or lose that's worth it's weight in gold for me as it represents a genuine experience of the unknown, which makes it a test of wit and skill.