Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

Ok but see: you keep focusing on PvP as a way to gain merits, which I'm totally against to because it could be easily exploited, because being killed purposelly would mean spend money and there's plenty of metas to gain ludicrous amount of credits in no time. That's already happened with the first undermining, with people pledged to enemy Powers to give their haul just to speed the process. No: we need tasks to complete for your Power, only positive actions should matter, the very moment you give weight to failure people will exploit that, because it's easier to fail and get negative impact than completing the rightful tasks. The only way to contribute should be being pledged to your Power of choice.
Another example: you kill a player pledged to your Power beause you think it's a smart tactic to gank people? Then you're banned from that Power for a month. Enjoy that first gank, smartass, there's not gonna be more.

Another thing I disagree with you is how you see PvP, as something with the "kill" as the natural and decisive event. A game mechanic need a PvE interaction, or if you like it more, a task to complete to measure the effectivness of a player and the team (the Power in this case) he plays for, the PvP factor would be what makes basically impossible (or at least very hard) to complete that task, or on the other hand would make it very easy to do, if the PvPers playing for your team will be able to repel the attackers. You see a Open Only Powerplay as some kind of PvP-driven Gladiator Arena, I see that as a warfare game, with people trying to kill other people or protect some others.

As I wrote up here, nobody wants a gankfest, even if some people will take this as an opportunity to gank people pledged to other Powers, but if you pledge then you admit that you are ok being attacked by differently pledged players, even now there's no more Security response, Powerplay, as already said, is consensual PvP, and it's simply a nonsense that you can be involved in such activities without the "other player" factor.

And yes, network issues will stay. But they are present for other game mechanics: multicrew mining is broken as hell, but nobody's asking for multicrew to be killed as a whole even if it's terribly botched (yeah, that's the reason why I talk about mining so much, I had to try it to help a friend to verify a bug :p ), the fact that instancing is not good in this game is not a enough to justify the open/pvt/solo coexistence in Powerplay. If we follow this stream of consciousness until the end, there's no point at all to have Open Play, because networking sucks.

Of course Powerplay should change by its game mechanics. Look at what I wrote above: no more static triggers but competitive fluid triggers, hotter and safer zones, a PvPer would probably go where there's more "action" leaving the rest of the space relatively safe, because it's there that their expertise would be most appreciated, and they'd be able to fight for other players to complete the tasks required to win, as a team. Powerplay missions/scenarios, so you (and I too for example) could roam around our Power bubble doing missions and finding the variability we seek from this game.

PvP shouldn't be ostracized or relegated to a totally different role, it should be part of the game, find its place in the big picture at least in one single game mechanic, in this particular case as a tool for a Power to make an assault possible, or to rebel an assault while other players protect and secure a territory.

Because it's not a matter of single players engaging their personal playstyle: it's about a mechanic that can give sense to a particular gamestyle, even with all the problems that this could bring with.

Sadly like many other aspects of the game, especially when we talk about networking.

A lot of meat in this post, and too little time to go into detail on my reply. But to sum up the points I keep bringing up:

I don't want to see Powerplay become an abandoned game mechanic like multi-crew, but become fully integrated into the game and attractive to a wide variety of play styles. I think it has a lot of potential, one which is unrealized due to poor execution on the part of Frontier. The primary flaws are in the rules that make fifth column strategies effective, poor communication about how to aid your power, Powerplay Modules, and static fortification goals. (Edit: and a lack of variety in ways of earning merits, of course. :D) Fix these things, and the landscape of Powerplay will become dynamic, with or without it being Open Only.

In my opinion, the state of Powerplay in Open is as as good as it will ever get. The players most inclined towards the gameplay opportunities provided by both Open play and Powerplay are already playing Powerplay in Open. Should Powerplay go Open Only, the players who are currently playing Powerplay in other modes will not start playing in Open, they'll quit playing altogether. The players who are not currently playing Powerplay, but start because of it going Open Only, will soon quit because they'll be "required" to play outside their preferred play style. The result will be a new static Powerplay landscape, only instead of a situation where everyone has expanded to fill all available space due to easy fortification, nobody will be able to expand at all because very few people will willing to do the "boring" job of fortification, for reasons ranging from: preferring to PvP; preferring combat in general; no longer having faith that the CAP, which was supposed to be protecting you, because they were off chasing kills; to simply getting frustrated that they're unable to keep very many systems fortified, due to how many underminers there are relative to remaining fortifiers. A Powerplay where there are no border clashes at all is about as interesting as a Powerplay which is a perpetual grind to move the front forward an foot.

The way to create a Powerplay that works for the most players, while simultaneously attracting more players into Open, is to actually reward PvP. Not playerkilling, PvP. As I've mentioned before, it's just as important to reward a player who successfully delivers merits, despite actual player opposition, as it is to reward a PvP kill. Make Open more attractive to players, because its much more efficient to pursues when there's actual player opposition around. The hard part will be making such a system resistant to player collusion.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. What you wrote above sounds great in theory... but I've seen that kind of thing attempted before with "PvE enhanced" games, and in practice it results in a frustrating experience for most of players involved, to the point where the developers bite the bullet and put in some form of a PvP switch, simply to stop the game from hemorrhaging players. And these were games that used a client-server architecture.

The reason for this that players haven't fundamentally changed over the last 40 years. The kind of "eco-system" you're describing above isn't really sustainable in a game played for entertainment. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. Very few are content to be the faceless stormtrooper or unnamed rebel trooper. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be proactive when they play. Very few are content to sit idly by, and hope something exciting happens. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be the lightbulbs. Very few are content to be the batteries.

If less players fortify then powers shrink until equilibrium, leaving more space to fight over and keeps the bubble from getting full. Without collapse this is the only way to stop stagnation. People have got used to seeing fortification as safe and reliable- via solo and PG powers can maintain huge empires with little thought required.

The other choice is back to being time x capacity which as I pointed out leads to stagnation which is what we have now.

In the end until you try it, you'll never know. Not trying it is the greater sin as the potential (as you indicate) is there.

When you say:

The kind of "eco-system" you're describing above isn't really sustainable in a game played for entertainment. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. Very few are content to be the faceless stormtrooper or unnamed rebel trooper.

How do you explain powers like AD fortifying nearly all of their systems each week- how are they being attracted to that role? They seem to take on the faceless role, what difference would it make?
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. What you wrote above sounds great in theory... but I've seen that kind of thing attempted before with "PvE enhanced" games, and in practice it results in a frustrating experience for most of players involved, to the point where the developers bite the bullet and put in some form of a PvP switch, simply to stop the game from hemorrhaging players. And these were games that used a client-server architecture.

The reason for this that players haven't fundamentally changed over the last 40 years. The kind of "eco-system" you're describing above isn't really sustainable in a game played for entertainment. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. Very few are content to be the faceless stormtrooper or unnamed rebel trooper. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be proactive when they play. Very few are content to sit idly by, and hope something exciting happens. Most of the players attracted to this kind of thing want to be the lightbulbs. Very few are content to be the batteries.

Again: I understand your concern but I'd like to see this tested anyway. Call me stubborn, but considering the sorry state of Powerplay is worth a shot.

About the chemical battery example... it was technically invented by Alessandro Volta, which is relatively easy for me to know because he studied and worked very close to my hometown :p, but I actually understand what that comic means of course, how people romanticize things etc. But let me say this, and I'm going a lot OT: it's not important to know who invented a particular thing or achieved a particular goal in science, as a "science guy" myself (I'm a physician) it's important to have in mind how it's the common process of progress by trials and experimentation that makes the difference., not the "superstar scientists". Everybody that really knows how "science" work and have read at least a scienctific paper in their life firmly believe in that, or at least I hope they do. Science, progress, is a process lead by humanity. (Ok, positivist/neo-illuminist mode OFF, I promise :p )

But you see, right now we're talking about very technical stuff and how people would interact with a different kind of playstyle, and for that we can only go for speculations.

People that can't accept to be "part of something bigger" and want to feel the main character of their personal story inside the game will simply find some other way to do so, as they're doing right now probably, maybe with Thargoids, maybe supporting some particular minor faction, or maybe even all of the faction of a Superpower, I'm nobody to argue how people should play their personal game.I want just this thing added to the game because I and many others don't feel the necessity of being the main character, but feelthe necessity to have something to fight for in a fair playground and thrive for player interactions, bust most importantly thrive for a tool to measure the effectivness of that particular gamestyle.

A lot of meat in this post, and too little time to go into detail on my reply. But to sum up the points I keep bringing up:

I don't want to see Powerplay become an abandoned game mechanic like multi-crew, but become fully integrated into the game and attractive to a wide variety of play styles. I think it has a lot of potential, one which is unrealized due to poor execution on the part of Frontier. The primary flaws are in the rules that make fifth column strategies effective, poor communication about how to aid your power, Powerplay Modules, and static fortification goals. (Edit: and a lack of variety in ways of earning merits, of course. :D) Fix these things, and the landscape of Powerplay will become dynamic, with or without it being Open Only.

In my opinion, the state of Powerplay in Open is as as good as it will ever get. The players most inclined towards the gameplay opportunities provided by both Open play and Powerplay are already playing Powerplay in Open. Should Powerplay go Open Only, the players who are currently playing Powerplay in other modes will not start playing in Open, they'll quit playing altogether. The players who are not currently playing Powerplay, but start because of it going Open Only, will soon quit because they'll be "required" to play outside their preferred play style. The result will be a new static Powerplay landscape, only instead of a situation where everyone has expanded to fill all available space due to easy fortification, nobody will be able to expand at all because very few people will willing to do the "boring" job of fortification, for reasons ranging from: preferring to PvP; preferring combat in general; no longer having faith that the CAP, which was supposed to be protecting you, because they were off chasing kills; to simply getting frustrated that they're unable to keep very many systems fortified, due to how many underminers there are relative to remaining fortifiers. A Powerplay where there are no border clashes at all is about as interesting as a Powerplay which is a perpetual grind to move the front forward an foot.

The way to create a Powerplay that works for the most players, while simultaneously attracting more players into Open, is to actually reward PvP. Not playerkilling, PvP. As I've mentioned before, it's just as important to reward a player who successfully delivers merits, despite actual player opposition, as it is to reward a PvP kill. Make Open more attractive to players, because its much more efficient to pursues when there's actual player opposition around. The hard part will be making such a system resistant to player collusion.

Are you talking about different weighted efforts between the different modes? That's something that's been proposed in the past, and I'm actually against it because of very technical reasons (as I'm against merits given to killings or even making other players fail).
Even if you weight the Open Play actions much more than the other modes, you put a great deal of variability in the game to nullify bots and change the rules to make 5C impossible, it's most likely that the vast majority of actions will be done in private and solo anyway, with small groups with the sole purpose to sabotage the actions done by the Open Players to slow them down, making, again, Open Play worthless.
This is what happens right now, it happened in every Grom expansion we tried to oppose, with milions (milions!!!) of merits done in private and solo and a selected PvP group that was even playing dirty to sabotage our operations.
Imagine if weighted efforts will be introduced, we will have groups who engage in private only with dedicated smaller groups directed against Open Only groups (I can only talk about the Kumo Crew, for us Open Play is mandatory as an ethical choice).I will quote you: apparently a good choice with terrible consequences, this time with something more than speculations but actual observations about what is Powerplay right now.

Now I'm going a little brainstorming but... I firmly believe that in the actual Powerplay there should be a great difference between personal rewards and effective actions: single players should be able to grind their way to rating 5 even in pvt and solo even solely to exploit the rating 5 bonus of their Power, but I believe that those merits should be "hollow" for the Power itself, a sort of "soft Open Only" mode.

That was my very first proposal about Powerplay anyway, a very long time ago. Nothing new of course, but I was very new to the game and my speculations over the whole "Powerplay power" were really green. After two years of experience, dealing with numbers and maths and actual gameplay, having seen how vile people could become playing this game, the only conclusion I've come to is to make Powerplay something so specific to a particular playstyle to attract people with a particular interest in the game, all of this would make Powerplay and its perks really selective, but this is what already happens with most mechanics, they're not all accessible because there's a matter of personal choice too, like myself who doesn't like mining and must grind his credits in many other different and far less effective ways, and it's how it should be (even if I think it's a little too much considering the general balancement but maybe I just envy people so much richer than me XD ).
 
The result will be a new static Powerplay landscape, only instead of a situation where everyone has expanded to fill all available space due to easy fortification, nobody will be able to expand at all because very few people will willing to do the "boring" job of fortification, for reasons ranging from: preferring to PvP; preferring combat in general; no longer having faith that the CAP, which was supposed to be protecting you, because they were off chasing kills; to simply getting frustrated that they're unable to keep very many systems fortified, due to how many underminers there are relative to remaining fortifiers.

This is an interesting point- and one that can't be proven until it actually happens. A point worth noting is that around cycle 5 fortification values were increased by x10. If, during testing the current number was too much, it could always be dialed back.

A Powerplay where there are no border clashes at all is about as interesting as a Powerplay which is a perpetual grind to move the front forward an foot.

The problem being currently is that border clashes happen over the same systems over multiple cycles. Seeing the same systems pop up for 10 cycles (2.5 months) is not really dynamic or interesting.

The way to create a Powerplay that works for the most players, while simultaneously attracting more players into Open, is to actually reward PvP. Not playerkilling, PvP. As I've mentioned before, it's just as important to reward a player who successfully delivers merits, despite actual player opposition, as it is to reward a PvP kill. Make Open more attractive to players, because its much more efficient to pursues when there's actual player opposition around. The hard part will be making such a system resistant to player collusion.

With what we have (and all that we can work with in the scope available) the incentive is to have (and see) your power improve so your efforts go to the perks of your power. This would need to involve making the leaderboard more understandable. It might be that FD rethinks ranks, or adds extras (the 4th tier is empty and could have extra perks added to it).
 
But this is exactly what Powerplay requires.

So far hauling is 99.99% guaranteed, making expansion without collapse inevitably result in a full galaxy (as we see now). This currently (and without Open / some other destabilizing force) makes Powerplay too stable and maintaining large territories too easy.

I find these parts of your response interesting:

Good post, and good to see you acknowlege the possibility that systems might not get fortified due to lack of hauling.

I know i've banged on a lot about this, but if we consider a future with open only, then one thing i think FD would have to do for the first few months is watch the numbers and rebalance things like fortification/prep/expansion requirements to meet what is actually happening. If they try and stick with current numbers, then i presume there would be massive collapses across most powers.


Remember that Powerplay was intended to be about the continual expansion / contraction of Powers, and not permanent empire building as we see now. Since collapse was not put in, there is no mechanism to clear space quickly and fairly to make Powerplay 'work'.

Going open only, making hauling more difficult injects tactical choices into what gets fortified, when and by whom. It means you might have to risk leaving something unfortified to save another system, putting pressure on large powers and giving leverage to smaller ones.

Without it, as I've said before, fortifying is simply time x capacity. Currently most Powers can fortify everything top to bottom. Utopia fortified 50+ systems in two days, Mahon fortified 100+ in seven. This capability is evidence its too easy to defend. Add on top consolidation bonuses and Powers become impossible to bring down.

I doubt any re-balancing of fortification amounts is needed. The average system thats favourable costs about 3000 merits to do, which is about four T-9s worth. Add to this a control system alone dictates the trigger makes things just about right. With overforting/ super undermining this is in a good place- but it would be prudent to see how it goes.

I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I would just prefer FD to find a solution that would enable that without making it open only. I suspect open only, given time, will simply settle into a new status quo, with largely static borders again, just different borders. You can throw PvP into the mix, but over time, it will just average out, just like the PvE does.
 
I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I would just prefer FD to find a solution that would enable that without making it open only. I suspect open only, given time, will simply settle into a new status quo, with largely static borders again, just different borders. You can throw PvP into the mix, but over time, it will just average out, just like the PvE does.

Well that's the funny thing, you'd have to fight in those border systems, a lot. :) It wouldn't be as static as it is right now (and with 5C as the only mathematical way to shake things up, even if that unethical).
 
Well that's the funny thing, you'd have to fight in those border systems, a lot. :) It wouldn't be as static as it is right now (and with 5C as the only mathematical way to shake things up, even if that unethical).

Yes, i understand they will have to fight, but what will provide the difference in terms of averages over time?

Its not like single encounters will change the course of PP. The results are generated over many many actions over the space of a week.

Are you suggesting some people might get fatigued from fighting and take breaks? The law of averages would say that will happen equally across all powers.

Same goes for most things in relation to such engagements.

Open only changes the terms of the game, but i don't see it breaking the law of averages.
 
Yes, i understand they will have to fight, but what will provide the difference in terms of averages over time?

Its not like single encounters will change the course of PP. The results are generated over many many actions over the space of a week.

Are you suggesting some people might get fatigued from fighting and take breaks? The law of averages would say that will happen equally across all powers.

Same goes for most things in relation to such engagements.

Open only changes the terms of the game, but i don't see it breaking the law of averages.
Well it's a possibility, and the competitive triggers with the ratio favourable for the defenders the more you get close to the headquarters would make really hard to "virtually collapse" a Power.

Really hard but not impossible, theoretically.
 
Well it's a possibility, and the competitive triggers with the ratio favourable for the defenders the more you get close to the headquarters would make really hard to "virtually collapse" a Power.

Really hard but not impossible, theoretically.

Yes, that's true. But that is also true now.
 
Yes, that's true. But that is also true now.

Not at all. That's not how Powerplay works, considering the actual rules. Once a system is fortified it's done. The only way to do so is to 5C a Power to the death. Do you know how overhead works, or even the turmoil order? I don't think you do. :/
 
I agree that this should be tested to.. Maybe FD should turn CQC (since so many pvpers rail against it apparently) into a "Test" area and see how it works. The main game should not be used for testing though.
 
I agree that this should be tested to.. Maybe FD should turn CQC (since so many pvpers rail against it apparently) into a "Test" area and see how it works. The main game should not be used for testing though.
lol poor CQC, there's people playing to that too... X-D
 
lol poor CQC, there's people playing to that too... X-D

The point mainly was that the main game shouldn't be used for testing things like this. A Test Server needs to be used... I only mentioned CQC because so many POOP supporters figuratively poop on CQC
 
Not at all. That's not how Powerplay works, considering the actual rules. Once a system is fortified it's done. The only way to do so is to 5C a Power to the death. Do you know how overhead works, or even the turmoil order? I don't think you do. :/

Yes, i know how it works. I got involved in PP when it was first launched.

Please, discuss the topic, don't cast aspersions.

What I said was in reply to you, which was closers to the home system the easier it gets to defend. If that isn't what you meant, then i misunderstood.
 
Yes, i know how it works. I got involved in PP when it was first launched.

Please, discuss the topic, don't cast aspersions.

What I said was in reply to you, which was closers to the home system the easier it gets to defend. If that isn't what you meant, then i misunderstood.
Oh yeah, I was talking about the possibility to technically almost "kill" a Power. It would be technically possibile with another set of rules (competitive triggers and a common environment to prevent one part by doing merits) but not the actual ones for sure.
And being involved in the first iterations it's not enough, that part of knowledge is usually very complicated and you have to be somehow of a masochist to impose yourself to truly understand those. Sadly I was. :p
 
Oh yeah, I was talking about the possibility to technically almost "kill" a Power. It would be technically possibile with another set of rules (competitive triggers and a common environment to prevent one part by doing merits) but not the actual ones for sure.
And being involved in the first iterations it's not enough, that part of knowledge is usually very complicated and you have to be somehow of a masochist to impose yourself to truly understand those. Sadly I was. :p

Yes, with the current rules, it seems almost impossible to cause the collapse of a power. I suspect that even if a power had zero supporters that nothing would happen without the hand of FD.
 
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