Powerplay Whatever happened to the Powerplay Open only Proposal (POOP) ?

[Darkfyre99]

Powerplay does not simulate politics, or at least many powers do not. If it was, it would run like elections do and only peaceful actions count.

Elections != politics.

Politics is the exercise of power in governance. There are many forms of power, and the ability to win elections is only one form of it. Manipulating the press is another. So is character assassination. So is actual assassination. So is sabotage. So is espionage . So is economics. So is outright warfare.

That is what Powerplay is attempting, rather poorly, to simulate. Some Powers are adept at manipulating the media and the court of public opinion, exerting their influence by being the darling of the people. Others are more authoritarian, relying on the police and the military to enforce their will. Some are adept at economics, manipulating markets, because they know that who truly rules someone is not their government, but their employer. And some rule via naked violence, relying on fear to keep the people in line.

The nearest action that could be an analog would be the prep phase, which for some powers is flooding systems with propaganda. From memory only a few powers (Winters Mahon and Aisling) approach anything political lore wise, the rest use force or coercion to get what they want. Even then only two (Winters and Mahon) have democratic outlooks. I mean, is Archon a politician? Grom? Antal?

Yes. Very much so. You don’t become a pirate king, dictator, or the leader of a cult by passively waiting for it to fall into your lap. You become one by influencing others, knifing your rivals, and rolling some heads... some times metaphorical, sometimes literal.

But should all fortification run be 'safe'? In a mixed mode situation what will happen is that all forts will be done in solo or PG as it is now, only that it will have no ceiling and go on until one side stops. That to be is bad, as it amplifies the grind people hate with Powerplay. It would make it even harder to 'sell' Powerplay to newcomers.

And unrelenting PvP, whether perceived or real, is going to attract new players? What about rampant player-killing? The inevitable combat logging?

I’m fine with the minority of players doing their fortification runs in solo/PG. If they like that kind of thing, more power to them. I’m also fine with the minority of players doing their undermining combat farming in solo/PG. at least they’d be playing Powerplay, which would incentivize Frontier to devoting additional resources to its improvement. Any “advantage” in not having to worry about human players will be shared by all sides of the conflict.

Creating a toxic environment won’t attract new players to Powerplay. It will only cause more players to quit playing it altogether.

I want that as well, but FD have demonstated to us the scope of the changes we can hope for in the proposals content- and within that scope Open Powerplay is the only significant change that lifts general Powerplay activities above those in the currently superior BGS. I don't know, FD might surprise us and overhaul PP totally....but I think FD are in damage limitation with the minimum effort needed.

I’m convinced that any desire to improve Powerplay left with Sandro. I simply don't see cutting off its head, in order to fix a broken leg, as any kind of solution at all.

But thats the thing, most of the game will remain unchanged, only one part of it would cater to players who currently do not have a feature to use.

Call me crazy, but I’ve always considered adding to the game in order to cater to a particular play style to be better than removing content from the rest of the playerbase in order to achieve the same result.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Elections != politics.

Politics is the exercise of power in governance. There are many forms of power, and the ability to win elections is only one form of it. Manipulating the press is another. So is character assassination. So is actual assassination. So is sabotage. So is espionage . So is economics. So is outright warfare.

That is what Powerplay is attempting, rather poorly, to simulate. Some Powers are adept at manipulating the media and the court of public opinion, exerting their influence by being the darling of the people. Others are more authoritarian, relying on the police and the military to enforce their will. Some are adept at economics, manipulating markets, because they know that who truly rules someone is not their government, but their employer. And some rule via naked violence, relying on fear to keep the people in line.

Yes. Very much so. You don’t become a pirate king, dictator, or the leader of a cult by passively waiting for it to fall into your lap. You become one by influencing others, knifing your rivals, and rolling some heads... some times metaphorical, sometimes literal.

But in game activities are not political at all. Its simple A to B hauling with no real popularity involved. The only part where that happens is out in Discord (ZYADA as an example). The only popularity contest going is rigged to the best modules rather than you yourself having a wavering vote who to support each week.

And unrelenting PvP, whether perceived or real, is going to attract new players? What about rampant player-killing? The inevitable combat logging?

I’m fine with the minority of players doing their fortification runs in solo/PG. If they like that kind of thing, more power to them. I’m also fine with the minority of players doing their undermining combat farming in solo/PG. at least they’d be playing Powerplay, which would incentivize Frontier to devoting additional resources to its improvement. Any “advantage” in not having to worry about human players will be shared by all sides of the conflict.

Creating a toxic environment won’t attract new players to Powerplay. It will only cause more players to quit playing it altogether.

We don't know what will happen if it goes Open Only, or if it will be as toxic as you think... it certainly can't get any worse than it is now. We can guess but in the end only by trying it can you know if its viable from a technical or gameplay perspective.

Open Powerplay would indeed be about killing- because in theory that killing attenuates your opponents acitivty that otherwise goes unchallenged by NPCs. Without it, Powerplay is haul more or shoot more. Its one dimensional and holds no challenge- and is one of the reasons (besides merit decay) people and groups abandoned it early on.

I’m convinced that any desire to improve Powerplay left with Sandro. I simply don't see cutting off its head, in order to fix a broken leg, as any kind of solution at all.

Call me crazy, but I’ve always considered adding to the game in order to cater to a particular play style to be better than removing content from the rest of the playerbase in order to achieve the same result.

But you are adding to the game. The new BGS is pretty much Powerplay+ with so many new self sustaining features along with Squadrons dovetailing into it. But the BGS does not suit Open only, while Powerplay does giving a whole new challenge to players to pledge. Simple A to B activities become much more complicated because to a point your enemy can guess where you are. It tasks players to use advanced skills to survive potentially lethal encounters you simply never get anywhere else in the game.

Without drastic change Powerplay will become a zombie feature for half the powers, and trench warfare for the larger ones. Already smaller powers are sock puppeted into being weapons, and the whole thing is devolving into farce. It needs those changes but also a reason to exist thats apart from a resurgent BGS.

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Died on the vine, most likely. Dunno that they'll ever remove Power Play, but it'd be real nice if they took the Power-specific modules and put them in the Tech Broker where they belong, and frankly, have belonged from the beginning.

 

[Darkfyre99]

We don't know what will happen if it goes Open Only, or if it will be as toxic as you think... it certainly can't get any worse than it is now. We can guess but in the end only by trying it can you know if its viable from a technical or gameplay perspective.

You're right we don't know what will happen if it goes Open Only. However, in my experience the odds are stacked against it. Far more experienced developers than Frontier, developers who have actual experience with multi-player gaming, and even with MMOs, have shot for the proverbial "holy grail," and the internet is littered with their failed projects... or they caved to the inevitable and put in a PvP switch, excising PvP and PvPers from the main game as if it was a malignant tumor.

Nor do I have any reason to think that it will go any different than when Powerplay was first introduced: where unpledged player-killers stalked capitals and control systems, with NPCs coming in a close second as potential threats to a fortifier, while pledged commanders were so rare that I could count how many encounters I had on one hand, with most of my fingers left over.

Granted, I felt the player-killers were about as dangerous to me as the NPCs were, more of an annoying interruption to my game than an actual threat, but then I've never followed the popular "rules" on how to play this game "properly."

Last time, the unpledged player-killer activity soon died out, as the players who don't enjoy that kind of thing left for other modes, and then I decided that I don't like any of the ways to earn merits in Powerplay, and decided to focus on the BGS side of things instead. I have little reason to believe that this exact same scenario won't repeat should Powerplay go Open Only, only except of those players who don't enjoy that kind of thing leaving for other modes, they'll leave Powerplay altogether.

 

[Interstellar Overdrive]

Simple A to B activities become much more complicated because to a point your enemy can guess where you are.

Not really. You cannot blockade a system effectively 24/7, at most you can be a nuisance. Perhaps prevent people from minmaxing for cargo. Instancing is a real pain. Quite often you will get split instances, really great if you are attacked when hauling merits.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not really. You cannot blockade a system effectively 24/7, at most you can be a nuisance. Perhaps prevent people from minmaxing for cargo. Instancing is a real pain. Quite often you will get split instances, really great if you are attacked when hauling merits.

In the Open Powerplay proposal you can, mainly as the areas of activity are fewer, and everyone fortifies inbound.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You're right we don't know what will happen if it goes Open Only. However, in my experience the odds are stacked against it. Far more experienced developers than Frontier, developers who have actual experience with multi-player gaming, and even with MMOs, have shot for the proverbial "holy grail," and the internet is littered with their failed projects... or they caved to the inevitable and put in a PvP switch, excising PvP and PvPers from the main game as if it was a malignant tumor.

Nor do I have any reason to think that it will go any different than when Powerplay was first introduced: where unpledged player-killers stalked capitals and control systems, with NPCs coming in a close second as potential threats to a fortifier, while pledged commanders were so rare that I could count how many encounters I had on one hand, with most of my fingers left over.

Granted, I felt the player-killers were about as dangerous to me as the NPCs were, more of an annoying interruption to my game than an actual threat, but then I've never followed the popular "rules" on how to play this game "properly."

Last time, the unpledged player-killer activity soon died out, as the players who don't enjoy that kind of thing left for other modes, and then I decided that I don't like any of the ways to earn merits in Powerplay, and decided to focus on the BGS side of things instead. I have little reason to believe that this exact same scenario won't repeat should Powerplay go Open Only, only except of those players who don't enjoy that kind of thing leaving for other modes, they'll leave Powerplay altogether.

Then the only other option is removal, simply as Powerplay has no place as it is within ED any longer. Its a poor cranky relation to the new BGS, and if FD won't give it any new gameplay (just try to fix 5C on its own) its doomed anyway because the underpinnings have not changed. Open gives it that, a reason to keep it in because it is a genuinely unique proposition.

I imagine some would stop playing it or migrate to BGS work, but then I think the same number of people will come back because of it being Open, judging by the spike in Discord interest over the topic. If this influx is a different ratio between players attacking and defending then great, mainly as for the larger powers it means more action and reduced ability to maintain sizes. Instability is much better than certainty.

These features exchange players then between them, your player killer 'menace' get eleven x fort system targets + combat expansions to fight in. I see no net loss in that at all because a lot of people enjoy organised fighting.

In the end, people overstate how big Powerplay is within ED- you imply its too important to lose to Open Only, and yet Powerplay is a niche activity within ED. Its stuck because people don't see a future for it, and yet refuse to let it change into something different.

Even if it is a failure, what loss is it? Is having a mode full of killers bad, when that mode is ultimately about killing? If Powers reduce in size, why is that bad? Is it better than the unchanging territory we have now?

 

[Lateralus]

In the end, people overstate how big Powerplay is within ED- you imply its too important to lose to Open Only, and yet Powerplay is a niche activity within ED. Its stuck because people don't see a future for it, and yet refuse to let it change into something different.

Even if it is a failure, what loss is it? Is having a mode full of killers bad, when that mode is ultimately about killing? If Powers reduce in size, why is that bad? Is it better than the unchanging territory we have now?

The opposition to this proposal generally don't care about losing Powerplay to open because they would not be able to partake in it anymore. They care about PvPers being given anything exclusive within the game that legitimises random hostility. In their mind PvP is bad, not desirable by Fdev and should be kept ring-fenced and limited as much as possible (even though PvP was the main reason Powerplay was created in the first place).

 

[Brrokk]

The opposition to this proposal generally don't care about losing Powerplay to open because they would not be able to partake in it anymore. They care about PvPers being given anything exclusive within the game that legitimises random hostility. In their mind PvP is bad, not desirable by Fdev and should be kept ring-fenced and limited as much as possible (even though PvP was the main reason Powerplay was created in the first place).

The people in favour of this proposal generally don't care about playing Powerplay. They just care about PvPers being given more targets for their random hostility. In their mind Solo is bad and should be kept ring-fenced and limited as much as possible (even though modes were the way ED was created in the first place).

Anyone can have a go at others' supposed motivations instead of their actual positions.

Bulverism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lateralus]

The people in favour of this proposal generally don't care about playing Powerplay. They just care about PvPers being given more targets for their random hostility. In their mind Solo is bad and should be kept ring-fenced and limited as much as possible (even though modes were the way ED was created in the first place).

Anyone can have a go at others' supposed motivations instead of their actual positions.

Bulverism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ahh, so whenever someone comes out with 'you don't want proper PvP, you just want easy targets to shoot at'.. that would be Bulverism too?

 

[Interstellar Overdrive]

In the Open Powerplay proposal you can, mainly as the areas of activity are fewer, and everyone fortifies inbound.

Wow, inbound is even easier. Only have to risk an empty ship. Once you make it to a station you are good to go. Jump to any random system within jump range and resume course. They cannot even effectively blockade headquarters. I do not see how open only will change any of this. Instancing will still be pretty terrible.

Then the only other option is removal

Or a redo, like engineers.

Open gives it that

That is just an illusion. Let it go

 

[Brrokk]

Ahh, so whenever someone comes out with 'you don't want proper PvP, you just want easy targets to shoot at'.. that would be Bulverism too?

Yup!

Unless you make observations to expose those motivations. E.g. someone who takes part in a PvP tournament probably really does want PvP, but someone who goes to Sag.A* hunting explorers probably doesn't.

From the Wikipedia article: "The special threat of this fallacy lies in that it applies equally to the person who errs as to that person's opponent. Taken to its logical consequence, it implies that all arguments are unreliable and hence undermines all rational thought."

 

[Lateralus]

Yup!

Unless you make observations to expose those motivations. E.g. someone who takes part in a PvP tournament probably really does want PvP, but someone who goes to Sag.A* hunting explorers probably doesn't.

From the Wikipedia article: "The special threat of this fallacy lies in that it applies equally to the person who errs as to that person's opponent. Taken to its logical consequence, it implies that all arguments are unreliable and hence undermines all rational thought."

I'd be very surprised if all the people opposing this idea are avid Powerplayers though.. Then if not, what is their motivation?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Wow, inbound is even easier. Only have to risk an empty ship. Once you make it to a station you are good to go. Jump to any random system within jump range and resume course. They cannot even effectively blockade headquarters. I do not see how open only will change any of this. Instancing will still be pretty terrible.

? All fortification comes to one central point, where roaming attackers and friendly interdictors will be.

Or a redo, like engineers.

Which I would love. But FD are not (or have not) indicated they want to put in that level of work. The changes offered are the level of work they are willing to do.

That is just an illusion. Let it go

Not really. The times Powerplay has behaved like Open Powerplay have been the best experiences I've had with that feature. Without the Open aspect, what do the changes provide other than maintaining the failed status quo?

 

[Interstellar Overdrive]

All fortification comes to one central point, where roaming attackers and friendly interdictors will be.

Perhaps that is just a matter of perspective

However, it does not matter which direction they go. HQ still cannot be effectively blocked 24/7. Also do you have any idea how boring it is to try to blockade a system 24/7? Just sit there and look at the star, or supermassive black hole, and fall asleep. Or even worse, having to endure the company of allied CMDRs while maintaining said blockade.

Not really. The times Powerplay has behaved like Open Powerplay have been the best experiences I've had with that feature. Without the Open aspect, what do the changes provide other than maintaining the failed status quo?

Something other than hauling merits All the fun I have had with Powerplay revolved around not hauling merits. Open-only will not make the equivalent of watching paint dry any more interesting.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Perhaps that is just a matter of perspective

However, it does not matter which direction they go. HQ still cannot be effectively blocked 24/7. Also do you have any idea how boring it is to try to blockade a system 24/7? Just sit there and look at the star, or supermassive black hole, and fall asleep. Or even worse, having to endure the company of allied CMDRs while maintaining said blockade.

Inbound means that the chances are high in an Open context if you spend enough time in the capitals (especially those of busy powers) you'll see fortifiers, or people responding to your presence wanting to stop you.

Take this screenshot: Grom had to fortify everything. Thats a lot of fortifying ships returning in an Open context.

You are also approaching the issue from a rigid perspective. Quite often Powerplay pledges will be called on Discord regarding sightings of rivals in system Uming or otherwise. Outside of that they go about doing other things.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Open Powerplay would not be a 1:1 maxi CQC. Its opportunistic.

You also forget direct opposition in expansion and preparation systems, places where pledges are compelled to go. Since powers are currently quite disciplined in what systems they fortify, it would also be not impossible to hassle ships near said systems.

Something other than hauling merits All the fun I have had with Powerplay revolved around not hauling merits. Open-only will not make the equivalent of watching paint dry any more interesting.

The fun I had was not hauling merits, it was intercepting and fighting Kumo pirates undermining Utopian systems. I figured out the pattern they were going by, scrambled fellow pledges and went out hunting.

 

[Oopsie]

I don't know whatever happened to PooP, but I will throw my vote in the hat: Open Only!

 

[bigity]

The people in favour of this proposal generally don't care about playing Powerplay. They just care about PvPers being given more targets for their random hostility. In their mind Solo is bad and should be kept ring-fenced and limited as much as possible (even though modes were the way ED was created in the first place).

Anyone can have a go at others' supposed motivations instead of their actual positions.

Bulverism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IIRC, solo mode was added when people complained about no offline mode? IIRC it was initially open only? Could be wrong though, probably am.

 

[Jockey79]

IIRC, solo mode was added when people complained about no offline mode? IIRC it was initially open only? Could be wrong though, probably am.

You remembered incorrectly, Solo was part of the original Kickstarter that people backed (Edit: don't take my word for it, listen to David Braben explain it in a Kickstarter Dev diary video).
Offline was added in response to complaints of the game being "Online Only", but then they decided it wasn't a compatible idea and dropped Offline.

Perhaps you should pop over to; https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous and refresh your memory.
(or use the handy link in my sig to remind yourself of what Frontier have said in the past)

 

[Interstellar Overdrive]

Inbound means that the chances are high in an Open context if you spend enough time in the capitals (especially those of busy powers) you'll see fortifiers, or people responding to your presence wanting to stop you.

I guess I prefer my point of failure to be at the destination. In any case, it is a roll of the dice, half the time you will get through unopposed. Kind of like Shinrarta Dezhra in the evenings.

It still promotes camping rather than hunting. Camping is boring. Camping with annoying other people is boring and annoying.

You are also approaching the issue from a rigid perspective. Quite often Powerplay pledges will be called on Discord regarding sightings of rivals in system Uming or otherwise. Outside of that they go about doing other things.

Yes. Rigid.
Not on Discord.

You also forget direct opposition in expansion and preparation systems, places where pledges are compelled to go. Since powers are currently quite disciplined in what systems they fortify, it would also be not impossible to hassle ships near said systems.

There are no expansions.
Ok, you got me there, this would be where open-only could slightly improve things.

The fun I had was not hauling merits, it was intercepting and fighting Kumo pirates undermining Utopian systems. I figured out the pattern they were going by, scrambled fellow pledges and went out hunting.

Yeah. This inbound noise will cancel the hunt In any case, someone will have to fort at one point.