Thank you for clarifying!
Where are the DEVS?
- Thread starter FunnyLiz
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- @devs planet zoo
I want to emphasize this.
I think most of us have (sadly) acknowledged that there's no point asking for roadmaps. They have never delivered them, and most likely never will. But between providing a roadmap and complete silence there's a lot of stuff the devs can do to keep interacting with the community. One example is indeed streams. It's something I've brought up a couple of times before. The difference in the amount of streams between PC and PZ is just devastating at this point. And sorry but using the pandemic excuse for this one is beyond being naive. A whole year for a informatics company to adapt to this new (crappy) situation is more than enough. Idk, in my work field we quickly adapted to virtual work, virtual scientific conferences, webinars, etc.
And then there's the lack of activity in the forums and other platforms. Indeed, 1 post per week is not the level of interaction I'd expect from such a big company and such a big game. My perception is that pretty much only the bugs/issues/suggestions posted in the official announcements section get an answer. The fact that 95% of the activity happens when they have something big to announce/sell is getting more and more obvious after each released DLC. Sigh.
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I will say this: sometimes I take a look at the CM profiles when I'm on the site but not doing anything. I've noticed up to 4-5 entire days sometimes pass before some of the CMs even log on to the site. Today is the most recent day in a while that I can think of when I've seen Paul, Jay, Tim and Jens all log on in the same 24 hour time span.
Edit: also interesting to note that Elite Dangerous has gotten 2 new CMs just for that community in the past 5 months. So I wouldn't think there would be a "shortage" for lack of a better term.
We should not be surprised at this point that general silence is their MO.
Edit: also interesting to note that Elite Dangerous has gotten 2 new CMs just for that community in the past 5 months. So I wouldn't think there would be a "shortage" for lack of a better term.
We should not be surprised at this point that general silence is their MO.
Unfortunately they master the silence (polar bear...). Fortunately, they are usually working hard while being in silence. They will come back when they bring us the custom audio or the winners of the postcard competition, and they might publish some random comment, but not much more.
In addition, we have already speculated about a million possible DLC and what animals and building themes/pieces we would like to see. So I'm afraid the next weeks the forum will become less active. Later on we all will panic and feel miserable and forgotten. Then we'll get an announcement for update 1.6 and a new DLC and we'll be happy again. It's the circle of life in this "planet".
In addition, we have already speculated about a million possible DLC and what animals and building themes/pieces we would like to see. So I'm afraid the next weeks the forum will become less active. Later on we all will panic and feel miserable and forgotten. Then we'll get an announcement for update 1.6 and a new DLC and we'll be happy again. It's the circle of life in this "planet".
Yes, at this point it's been 1 month since the release of the SEA pack, so I would anticipate the forums will be mostly dead until the end of May, at which point dlc speculation for a June release will starting heating up. Because obviously we don't know what it's going to be, lol.
For me, as long as the feedback is getting through, that's enough. And every time I read through the Update Notes, I'm convinced that the feedback does indeed get through, because so many of the fixes are so specific to things that have been reported here. (Not that everything gets fixed... but enough that I believe they are aware of the other problems, even if they haven't solved them yet).
For me personally, I'm not sure that a lot would be gained by having CMs reply to every thread saying "Thank you for letting us know. We'll pass this on to the devs". or "Thanks. The devs are aware of this". The model seems to be that the actual fixes/changes/responses come in the official updates, so having weeks/months of standard, cookie-cutter responses in between (because that's all they're allowed to say) would probably upset people just as much. Then again, I know lots of people are comforted by even bot-confirmations that something has been received. "Your order has been processed. Please watch future Update Notes to see if we were able to resolve this."
I'd also say that we on the outside don't necessarily know what the CM's full job duties entail. I've had plenty of jobs where what people think I do (and think is most important) is only a tiny sliver of what I'm actually supposed to do. Our CMs clearly have responsibilities on the marketing/advertising side of things (thus the rush of info around dlc time), and possibly other internal tasks for managing the internal "community" of devs (keeping people on the same page, etc.). And we don't really know what extra things they might have been made responsible during the pandemic. Where I work, for example, our marketing staff was heavily repurposed toward donors and interfacing with governmental bodies and ordinances, and our reception staff have taken on most of the operational duties so that others could work from home.
Sure, there are alternative corporate structures that could choose to make forum responses a higher priority, but we don't really know what else would need to be given up to make that happen.
Plus, we're a rowdy enough group (I admit that I myself am guilty as charged), that a certain amount of background grumbling has probably just become standard. If something new really goes wrong, I'm sure the CMs will respond. But a lot of the things that I and others report are just known, ongoing issues that either will or won't get fixed in their own due time.
For me personally, I'm not sure that a lot would be gained by having CMs reply to every thread saying "Thank you for letting us know. We'll pass this on to the devs". or "Thanks. The devs are aware of this". The model seems to be that the actual fixes/changes/responses come in the official updates, so having weeks/months of standard, cookie-cutter responses in between (because that's all they're allowed to say) would probably upset people just as much. Then again, I know lots of people are comforted by even bot-confirmations that something has been received. "Your order has been processed. Please watch future Update Notes to see if we were able to resolve this."
I'd also say that we on the outside don't necessarily know what the CM's full job duties entail. I've had plenty of jobs where what people think I do (and think is most important) is only a tiny sliver of what I'm actually supposed to do. Our CMs clearly have responsibilities on the marketing/advertising side of things (thus the rush of info around dlc time), and possibly other internal tasks for managing the internal "community" of devs (keeping people on the same page, etc.). And we don't really know what extra things they might have been made responsible during the pandemic. Where I work, for example, our marketing staff was heavily repurposed toward donors and interfacing with governmental bodies and ordinances, and our reception staff have taken on most of the operational duties so that others could work from home.
Sure, there are alternative corporate structures that could choose to make forum responses a higher priority, but we don't really know what else would need to be given up to make that happen.
Plus, we're a rowdy enough group (I admit that I myself am guilty as charged), that a certain amount of background grumbling has probably just become standard. If something new really goes wrong, I'm sure the CMs will respond. But a lot of the things that I and others report are just known, ongoing issues that either will or won't get fixed in their own due time.
Honestly, to me it never felt different with Chantè. Which was probably not her fault but the way Frontier manages things. 3 month silence, then "yay, we got something to sell!" One week activity, then 3 month silence again. A good Portion of the community is complaining about this strategy every single time, but nothing changes. At this point I'm convinced the CMs aren't allowed to interact more by someone with a higher job position. Must be quite a frustrating position they are in.
The only time ever since the beta days it felt like they were left off the leash was with "Bintuwrong" gate.
But other than that? No reaction to popular feedback, common bugs, or just fun topics.
I'm still surprised they were allowed to give us an answer on the question, if the SEA pack marks the end of the building pieces.(For a moment I had hope their communication strategy did change).
All in all, Frontier does react to SOME feedback, but usually very slow, with exceptions to the rule with the Binturong or the rock count roll back for example.
The only time ever since the beta days it felt like they were left off the leash was with "Bintuwrong" gate.
But other than that? No reaction to popular feedback, common bugs, or just fun topics.
I'm still surprised they were allowed to give us an answer on the question, if the SEA pack marks the end of the building pieces.(For a moment I had hope their communication strategy did change).
All in all, Frontier does react to SOME feedback, but usually very slow, with exceptions to the rule with the Binturong or the rock count roll back for example.
this thread popped up in 'Whats New' so I read it.
Im from ED forum community and I can assure you we have long been calling for more interaction. There is one dev who responds occasionally but we hardly ever get or got anything else for a long time now. I am hoping @HeatherG comment above applies to us as well as we are more in the dark usually than it seems you have ever been and never even know our comments have been read at all, thats the biggest issue on ED forums. We certainly havent had the weekly responses you have had.
They might be responding atm on the Odyssesy forums as the game is in Alpha and changes will be made, I dont know I dont read that forum...on XB and us consoles wont have Odyssey until the Autumn which is another issue I can assure you.
I have seen the odd thread from Coaster & Zoo when it pops up in Whats New and always been amazed how much communication you get that we have long been calling for. It might be changing now as we now have the first Weekly Schedule that you have had for ages, I hope so.
Either way we are all customers whichever game we play and shouldn't be at war with each other or jealous of another community or blaming another game. If some devs have been borrowed for EDO (I don't know if they have or not) then the opposite will apply too and they will be borrowed from ED for your updates or PC or whatever, thats teamwork and understandable.
Devs are developers and arent necessarily expected to reply on the forums or communicate with the customer, it should be a bonus when they do and not expected. Time spent on the forums is less time spent actually working on the game and they do a fantastic job and rarely get thanks, just the issues and complaints. CMs have a wide job role and we can only hope that some of that is actually spent on the forums reading all our comments but yes the odd comment here and there just letting you know you've been heard is good customer service and your volunteer Mod @HeatherG is a credit in that regard, our usual Mods are brilliant too ofc but often seem more in the dark about what's happening as they havent been told themselves.
Just be patient, your team is probably adjusting and working out who will fill the role of your lost CM, our team has very recently communicated more to mostly positive praise. Some of our forum members are salty to say the least and actively drive staff away when they do communicate, don't let that happen to you. Peace
You're right - frustrated is all - Thanks for being rational and I was out of line, only because I love this companies products and pretty much only play them - regards Gthis thread popped up in 'Whats New' so I read it.
Im from ED forum community and I can assure you we have long been calling for more interaction. There is one dev who responds occasionally but we hardly ever get or got anything else for a long time now. I am hoping @HeatherG comment above applies to us as well as we are more in the dark usually than it seems you have ever been and never even know our comments have been read at all, thats the biggest issue on ED forums. We certainly havent had the weekly responses you have had.
They might be responding atm on the Odyssesy forums as the game is in Alpha and changes will be made, I dont know I dont read that forum...on XB and us consoles wont have Odyssey until the Autumn which is another issue I can assure you.
I have seen the odd thread from Coaster & Zoo when it pops up in Whats New and always been amazed how much communication you get that we have long been calling for. It might be changing now as we now have the first Weekly Schedule that you have had for ages, I hope so.
Either way we are all customers whichever game we play and shouldn't be at war with each other or jealous of another community or blaming another game. If some devs have been borrowed for EDO (I don't know if they have or not) then the opposite will apply too and they will be borrowed from ED for your updates or PC or whatever, thats teamwork and understandable.
Devs are developers and arent necessarily expected to reply on the forums or communicate with the customer, it should be a bonus when they do and not expected. Time spent on the forums is less time spent actually working on the game and they do a fantastic job and rarely get thanks, just the issues and complaints. CMs have a wide job role and we can only hope that some of that is actually spent on the forums reading all our comments but yes the odd comment here and there just letting you know you've been heard is good customer service and your volunteer Mod @HeatherG is a credit in that regard, our usual Mods are brilliant too ofc but often seem more in the dark about what's happening as they havent been told themselves.
Just be patient, your team is probably adjusting and working out who will fill the role of your lost CM, our team has very recently communicated more to mostly positive praise. Some of our forum members are salty to say the least and actively drive staff away when they do communicate, don't let that happen to you. Peace
While I know from other players that it's even worse for ED: Rest assured, the weekly responses are a myth here as well. Chanté once told us that they have a fourm day once a week and that they often batch post after that - but it never was once a week, honestly.The term is now only used by mods to calm the discussion down.
I absolutely agree that Devs should be able to spend their time on the game and not on the forums. But I think in this forum "dev" is often used for "someone from Frontier", which includes community managers. So a lot of players here, I feel, just use the term wrong.
We are definately all in the same boat, but for me that only means we should point out together that there is water running in and not just sit there. You say we are customers and we are. In comparision to other products on the market, outside of game development, to keep their customer base happy, a brand should be visible and react to feedback. Frontier is often times not visible for three month.
I just checked the forums and a good example where we got visibility and it wasn't a roadmap or whatever is here: Example
We all know that the issue tracker is frustrating and often feels to us like it doesn't do anything good for us. So we feel like bugs are ignored or not on their radar. By popping in and linking an issue that maybe the player didn't find themself (often times because even wording an issue can already be very different and lead to different search results), we got several things at once:
- Communication and interaction with the community
- Help with an issue
- We know that they are aware of a certain bug (reassurence in the product)
- Visibility of Frontier as a "brand" that cares for the happyness of its customers
Yes, the update notes show us that they are indeed listening to our feedback, however I also agree that a simple reassurment that the devs are looking into something is the best way to go and does not cost that much time to post about it. Otherwise, we might be wondering for 4 months, "Are they aware of this? Do they find this thing that is important for us also important for them to have in game? Is it even possible to solve this?" etc.
The recent example might be with the water depth requirments for deep diving. I had plan to build an otter enclosure, but I am holding onto it and awaiting the devs final verdict if it is possible to lower the water depth requirment, because once I will build the enclosure, it will be very difficult to adjust thanks to the water and path placement difficulties. Now I am in the blind if it wont be possible, or they are lowering it, or if they are still looking into it? If they said its not possible I could finally build the enclosure, even if I would not be happy that the depth of the water would have to be 4 m, at least I would know and could start working on it.
There are more things like this. Another example that I always bring up - after SA pack, we were promised that the natural mound enrichment for anteaters would be also made available for aardvarks. That was a year ago, and I never heard of it ever since. Is is still comming? Did the devs forgot about it? Did they decide its not worth the trouble? I would just like an answer, but whenever I bring this up I get no answer whatsoever, and that was in a thread that was supposed to be read by Frontier, since it was an update thread.
Now dont get me wrong, I am sure its not the CMs fault, they must be quite busy, especially now that Chanté left, but this is an ongoing problem since, I dont know, SA pack? Even the weekly streams were something that at least we felt like we were in contact with them. Yes I know, a pandemic. It surely complicate things, but we had a year to adjust to that.
I love Frontier, but its one thing to improve. We got the right communication before, so why its not possible now?
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The fact that the feedback is read is reassuring (as proven by the latest update and DLC), however, how are we supposed to know what has been read/passed on to the team or what wasn't if they don't say anything?
I know CMs have other things to do besides answering our posts, but the fact that they always say how important our feedback is and they encourage us to post it here, on their official forums, I would like to see a little bit more communication going on. I don't understand why they can't just say YES or NO to our questions/issues. Just say it can't be done/it currently isn't a priority, we won't be doing it at all, etc. Sure yeah, some users would still complain, but the majority would be satisfied with that answer. But to say the devs will look into the deep-diving requirements after New Year and will update us on it, and we're almost in May, and we haven't heard a single thing about it. A follow-up would be nice even if it means it cannot be changed. That's fine, but just please let us know. One post, that's all it takes. I wonder how long, and even if, we get some kind of reply about the diving/climbing issue which is a big problem, especially with big zoos.
I know we're in the middle of a pandemic, but it's been a year, and a lot of companies have adjusted to WFH. I've had school online, I'll probably have to have my thesis presentation online, I've had job interviews online. Come on now, we have all had to make changes and adjustments, but the pandemic is no longer a valid excuse. I'm sorry, but it's not.
I know CMs have other things to do besides answering our posts, but the fact that they always say how important our feedback is and they encourage us to post it here, on their official forums, I would like to see a little bit more communication going on. I don't understand why they can't just say YES or NO to our questions/issues. Just say it can't be done/it currently isn't a priority, we won't be doing it at all, etc. Sure yeah, some users would still complain, but the majority would be satisfied with that answer. But to say the devs will look into the deep-diving requirements after New Year and will update us on it, and we're almost in May, and we haven't heard a single thing about it. A follow-up would be nice even if it means it cannot be changed. That's fine, but just please let us know. One post, that's all it takes. I wonder how long, and even if, we get some kind of reply about the diving/climbing issue which is a big problem, especially with big zoos.
I know we're in the middle of a pandemic, but it's been a year, and a lot of companies have adjusted to WFH. I've had school online, I'll probably have to have my thesis presentation online, I've had job interviews online. Come on now, we have all had to make changes and adjustments, but the pandemic is no longer a valid excuse. I'm sorry, but it's not.
I can understand that they don't want to share a roadmap because they might not be able to make everything they planned work. But what I don't understand is why they don't share stuff that is ready to go in the next update. For example: "In the next update (date to be announced) species X will have deep swimming" and add a picture. Instant hype for the next update weeks or months before its release. We know we are getting custom audio, so why not share a picture of the speakers once these are made? things like that.
I saw Chante join the planet zoo facebook group several months back to keep an eye on bugs that were reported through that medium, for which I applaud here. But I haven't even seen the current CM outside of the update posts. It really feels to me like the CMs, or the suits at Frontier, don't care about this game and its community.
Please Frontier, talk to us, show us that you read what we, the community, have to say.
This, I was legit angry when Chante posted once that she read the posts. Like, show that you read them? A like, a "we will look into it" or something. This doesn't take long to do and it shows you have read the post! Saying you have read the post, does not show you read the post, it is pretty meaningless to me. ugh. It just makes me angry.
I saw Chante join the planet zoo facebook group several months back to keep an eye on bugs that were reported through that medium, for which I applaud here. But I haven't even seen the current CM outside of the update posts. It really feels to me like the CMs, or the suits at Frontier, don't care about this game and its community.
Please Frontier, talk to us, show us that you read what we, the community, have to say.
Totally agree with your statement. A short Feedback would be enough.
Not all errors can be written into the issue tracker. There are also ideas and suggestions that can only be said in the Fourum. In this case you need feedback. Even if you only say "that it works" or "not", or that "we are already working on it". That would be enough ...
That shouldnt be so much work...There is a "Feedback"-Thread in the Forum. So please give us Feedback too.
Then maybe you should adjust your expectations?
No company needs to or should be made to feel stipulated to have any engagement with consumers. I really don't know why people think they are owed direct access to developers of large companies. Yes, having a mechanism of feedback is great but take Facebook for example - try and get in contact with any real person of any significance and you will fail.
Be thankful there is a forum where you can voice your concerns / likes / thoughts. Don't mis-understand that it's something you're owed.
Comparing Facebook with a gaming company really is whataboutism at its core...
You are right that Frontier is not forced to have an engagement with us or that having a forum isn't something that we are owed. However, Frontier is constantly asking us for feedback, to use the issue tracker, to leave our comments and share our creations, to send them files from our games... So if they ask, it's normal that we expect an answer from time to time instead of having to wait 4 months to see if our opinion has been taken into account when the announce the new update.
Is it normal?
I submitted a fair amount to the issue tracker in the early days and didn't expect (or think it would be normal) to get any feedback on it.
One specific issue I posted on the issue tracker was solved - the first time I knew was when I saw it resolved in the game.
And remember, all companies are desperate for feedback; whether you're un-subscribing from stupid marketing emails and it asks you why, or whether you fill in the questionnaire at the end of a live chat with a robot... every company will always say "we want your feedback" - that doesn't mean consumers should think it is normal or expect a reply to their specific feedback.
In my opinion anyway.
The problem is, it was normal for Frontier to respond to at least the big issues/feedback threads which were consisted of several pages. Then something changed and we started to recieve these months of silence between the big updates.
If this was the case from the start, no one would expect any answers, but we had awesome communications from the PZ team before, so its only logical people wonder what went wrong...And no, the pandemic is not an excuse for this, since we all had a year to adjust our work (and really you can write an answer on forum just as good from home as it would be from work).
If this was the case from the start, no one would expect any answers, but we had awesome communications from the PZ team before, so its only logical people wonder what went wrong...And no, the pandemic is not an excuse for this, since we all had a year to adjust our work (and really you can write an answer on forum just as good from home as it would be from work).
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Oh, believe me, I have already lowered my expectations as time went by.
Right, no company needs to have engagement with customers. No engagement with the customers is a legit model to follow in many companies, with mixed effects on the opinion these companies have on the customer side (in general, customers rather prefer their concerns/issues to be listened and identified instead of being ignored).
But we're not even talking about a 'generic company', and certainly I wouldn't choose Facebook as a comparison; it's something completely different in so many ways. Frontier is a videogames company, and besides the usual Customer Service department (pretty much what the Issue Tracker is), they have community managers. And yes, luckily there's also a forum which allows interaction not only among the customers but between the customers and the CM. Btw, the vast majority of videogames have their own forums too, it's just something normal to have these days. So, Frontier themselves have employees exclusively dedicated to engage with or "manage" their games' communities. It's not something I'm inventing or demanding here. We aren't owed direct access to the developers and, in fact, we don't have direct access to them but to the intermediary figure of the CM.
And then there's the problem with precedents. Leaving aside how feedback is dealt with (which has got worse, as said in the post above), the fact that official videos or streams are a rare thing in PZ says a lot about how this interaction with the community was better in the past or in other games. It's not like I'm asking for a completely new strategy on their part. I'm asking them to please come back to how everything was before the SA DLC.
Anyway, I don't even know why we're discussing this. It astonishes me that someone would criticize someone else for asking for more engagement. When engagement can only be a good thing, not just for the customers but even for both sides of the story. But whatever...
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