Where are the DEVS?

[Bearcat9948]

They are kinda obligated to do that (kickstarter funded game), they already received some backlash when they stopped communicating for a while.

They're not at all obligated to do so, they want to because it's just good practice to keep your consumer base informed and engaged. I don't remember them receiving backlash for lack of communication, but I've only been paying attention to PK seriously since last fall when the official trailer came out, so if it was before then I can't comment.

No, but I think it has to do with tin foil hats.

I don't get this snarky little comment at all. Frontier doesn't communicate with us. The CMs rarely tell us what is and isn't being worked on, we never know what the new updates will be ahead of time etc.

You cannot seriously be trying to say that Frontier communicates with us well. And Frontier middle management telling the CMs they aren't allowed to tell us 90% of the happenings with PZ is absolutely the logical conclusion, unless you think that every single CM that has ever been involved with the project is willfully holding back information from the community and not commenting on things, just because they feel like it. That's preposterous. And those are the only two options.

 

[NL_Mutso]

I don't remember them receiving backlash for lack of communication

They went silent for several months (2-3 years ago?). These rules are well known for creator and funders (or should be). That's a newer version but the old one was very simliar.
The parts about honest framing actually gives some examples. The game was originally promised to release on november 2018, they dealt with that situation really well.
Somewhat similar are the guidelines for Early Access games on Steam. Advertising the current state of your game is a big one, you'll need to post regular updates about your game to let people know how complete your game is. And don't promise a roadmap if you are unsure if you are able to pull it off.

I don't get this snarky little comment at all. Frontier doesn't communicate with us. The CMs rarely tell us what is and isn't being worked on, we never know what the new updates will be ahead of time etc.

Your comments #87 & #89 in this thread. and the latest comment even adds more to that. (starting after: and frontier middle management....).
Btw, do you have any proof of your claims?
Please tell me this isn't the "Let's spread rumours/lies and "force" the devs to disprove them" tactic?

You cannot seriously be trying to say that Frontier communicates with us well

I stated my opinion on this many times, I think bugs and issues are very poorly communicated and there are still quite a few bugs in the game.
I think the issue tracker is not working as it should be or intended to be.
Other than that, they communicate fine.
It's not better or worse than 90% of devs when it comes to released games. (not much has changed in the last 10 or 20 years)
Sometimes devs announce new features/DLC 1-4 weeks before release but in the last couple of years a few days is becoming pretty normal. And even posting your progress and releasing the update on the same day is also not that uncommon anymore. There are exceptions but don't want to linger on exceptions.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

I still wonder if the problem/confusion may be as simple as not having updated their company staff titles to reflect what Frontier may actually be asking them to do. Maybe because their titles are stuck in an old model, but the gaming world has moved on from that.

Don't get me wrong -- I'd love more communication. But if the job descriptions have changed such that what they're really doing is more akin to advertising manager, or marketing manager, or even communications director, then it makes sense that more of their focus may be on internal planning, strategizing, etc. than with actual face-to-face customer interactions or responding to forums.

I remember way back I had a post asking what people did to prepare their zoos prior to a DLC drop. Chante wrote back rather humorously explaining the process that she went through (as CM, instead of as a player) to gather all the information, prepare timelines, and get the advertising out.

Granted, we could still blame Frontier for giving these folks confusing or outdated job titles -- using CM because it is common in the gaming world instead of advertising director or marketing associate or something that would be more accurate. But if I just mentally translate "community manager" to one of these other terms in my head, then I'm suddenly able to make sense of the corporate strategy, and what we actually see CMs doing and responding to, without having to assume any negative motives to anyone. It makes sense of why there was more going on at release than there is now. Or why a big issue like the binturong or the concern that there would be no more building pieces gets a response, while smaller issues don't. It's not that anyone is falling down on the job, or being kept from doing their job. It's just that their job is different than what some of us think it is!

As mentioned above, the very same Take 2 Podcast noted that PK is already starting to see less frequent communication happen -- and they aren't even in beta yet! So I really do think we may just be in a place with lots of gaming companies where we are waiting for them to officially update their job titles, rather than any likelihood that games are going to be reverting to an older model of community moderating that may have been in place in a different era.

 

[SanRazo618]

The podcast basically summarized all my grievances exactly... it’s crazy that is the consumers have to beg a company to release more stuff. We’re begging them to take our money and they don’t want too. They seem to want to bury PZ by sticking so heavily to this schedule

 

[Swjosdotschka]

The podcast basically summarized all my grievances exactly... it’s crazy that is the consumers have to beg a company to release more stuff. We’re begging them to take our money and they don’t want too. They seem to want to bury PZ by sticking so heavily to this schedule

THIS. So much this! The latest Take 2 Podcast put it, once again, perfectly. And this is something that is way more frustrating than the lack of communication. The lack of acknowledgement for the communiyt and the game.
"Oh, there is demand for more with this game? What a shame, we have a fixed roadmap we won't communicate and want to be done with this game anyway."
Reacting to demand is the one thing they can learn from EA. The only thing they should learn from them (though sadly, EAs communication lately s way better than Frontiers).
But what do they learn? Not addressing long term issues in a timely manner.

With EA we know it is the upper management, with Frontier we can only guess.

By the way, there is a new wave of very loyal players moving over from Simsto PZ, willing to give them their money. Not that Frontier will actually make something of it...

 

[random goat]

They went silent for several months (2-3 years ago?). These rules are well known for creator and funders (or should be). That's a newer version but the old one was very simliar.
The parts about honest framing actually gives some examples. The game was originally promised to release on november 2018, they dealt with that situation really well.
Somewhat similar are the guidelines for Early Access games on Steam. Advertising the current state of your game is a big one, you'll need to post regular updates about your game to let people know how complete your game is. And don't promise a roadmap if you are unsure if you are able to pull it off.

Your comments #87 & #89 in this thread. and the latest comment even adds more to that. (starting after: and frontier middle management....).
Btw, do you have any proof of your claims?
Please tell me this isn't the "Let's spread rumours/lies and "force" the devs to disprove them" tactic?


I stated my opinion on this many times, I think bugs and issues are very poorly communicated and there are still quite a few bugs in the game.
I think the issue tracker is not working as it should be or intended to be.
Other than that, they communicate fine.
It's not better or worse than 90% of devs when it comes to released games. (not much has changed in the last 10 or 20 years)
Sometimes devs announce new features/DLC 1-4 weeks before release but in the last couple of years a few days is becoming pretty normal. And even posting your progress and releasing the update on the same day is also not that uncommon anymore. There are exceptions but don't want to linger on exceptions.

But you're basically implying the same as what Bearcat said regarding devs, yet you ask him if he has proof or if he's using some sort of manipulative tactic? You are both saying the devs agenda is not being very communicative or not sharing much info between releases. You’re basically reasserting the proof you’re asking for:

Bearcat: Devs are holding CMs back from sharing more information, developing progress or solutions to bugs/issues, or simply interacting with the community.
You: Bugs and fixes are poorly communicated. Devs announce features or DLCs only a few weeks or days before release, like many other companies.

The only difference is your opinions with regards to that strategy.

 

[random goat]

I still wonder if the problem/confusion may be as simple as not having updated their company staff titles to reflect what Frontier may actually be asking them to do. Maybe because their titles are stuck in an old model, but the gaming world has moved on from that.

Don't get me wrong -- I'd love more communication. But if the job descriptions have changed such that what they're really doing is more akin to advertising manager, or marketing manager, or even communications director, then it makes sense that more of their focus may be on internal planning, strategizing, etc. than with actual face-to-face customer interactions or responding to forums.

I remember way back I had a post asking what people did to prepare their zoos prior to a DLC drop. Chante wrote back rather humorously explaining the process that she went through (as CM, instead of as a player) to gather all the information, prepare timelines, and get the advertising out.

Granted, we could still blame Frontier for giving these folks confusing or outdated job titles -- using CM because it is common in the gaming world instead of advertising director or marketing associate or something that would be more accurate. But if I just mentally translate "community manager" to one of these other terms in my head, then I'm suddenly able to make sense of the corporate strategy, and what we actually see CMs doing and responding to, without having to assume any negative motives to anyone. It makes sense of why there was more going on at release than there is now. Or why a big issue like the binturong or the concern that there would be no more building pieces gets a response, while smaller issues don't. It's not that anyone is falling down on the job, or being kept from doing their job. It's just that their job is different than what some of us think it is!

As mentioned above, the very same Take 2 Podcast noted that PK is already starting to see less frequent communication happen -- and they aren't even in beta yet! So I really do think we may just be in a place with lots of gaming companies where we are waiting for them to officially update their job titles, rather than any likelihood that games are going to be reverting to an older model of community moderating that may have been in place in a different era.

You make a good point here. And tbh this might be the case. I also agree that Frontier is not the only company not communicating very well in the videogame industry.
But even if that's the case, it still bugs me why they thought PC deserved some proper community management plus dozens if not hundreds of youtube streams, but PZ didn't. The minimal communication with some content creators, who are one of their main ways of advertising the game, is also a bit concerning and inexplicable.
I know for a fact that one of the platforms where some of the main content creators gather and much comprehensive and thorough feedback has been given to improve the game is not on their radar since Chante left.

 

[Tobs]

You make a good point here. And tbh this might be the case. I also agree that Frontier is not the only company not communicating very well in the videogame industry.
But even if that's the case, it still bugs me why they thought PC deserved some proper community management plus dozens if not hundreds of youtube streams, but PZ didn't. The minimal communication with some content creators, who are one of their main ways of advertising the game, is also a bit concerning and inexplicable.
I know for a fact that one of the platforms where some of the main content creators gather and much comprehensive and thorough feedback has been given to improve the game is not on their radar since Chante left.

Frontier was a different company when they launched PlanCo vs PlanZoo.

In addition to that, when they launched PlanCo - they had a direct competitor - that guess what - was released 1 day before PlanCo got released. Now we know who the winner is.

Frontier has no direct competitor for PlanZoo. There isn't a single one. PK is not a competitor. [Talking of PK, let's see whether we will ever see a fully developed game]

Due to the pandemic and the UK PM enforcing WFH, stream capabilities were (are?) limited. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to stream as regular as they did with PlanCo during COVID-19 from home. If I worked for Frontier and they asked me to stream from home, I'd have said "hell no".

----------------------------

At this point I honestly think that Frontier wants to move on and not necessarily rely on content creators to promote their games.

As pointed out by @iloveyourzoos , no one really knows what the CM are supposed to do. I also believe this changes from company to company. Perhaps what we think of a CM role is not what they are supposed to do at all. I would really appreciate a lot more information on PZ, but understand this is not how Frontier operates.

I don't agree that "Frontier is leaving cash on the table". When you run a business, and especially when you are listed on the stock market and you have to defend your strategy to investors, return on invested capital (ROIC) and profit margin are quite important. If Frontier believes that having X developers working on a game they can have a Y profit margin and Z ROIC, while having more people working on the game and releasing DLCs more frequently reduces these parameters, I don't think there's a business case to defend it. That's probably the case why they switched from the 4 PlanCo DLCs per year to a 3 PlanZoo DLCs per year. They probably have a better profit margin and hence ROIC with PlanZoo than they did with PlanCo. And when you run a business, you care about the money, or more precisely, how do you make your invested money work better (the more efficiently, the better).

 

[PeppyPepp]

Just want to point out that we do have a general idea of what CMs do. And you can see that on their Career page since they are actually looking for a CM. This is their description:

As part of our continued growth we have opportunities for Community Managers to join our Community Team (MCV's Best Community Team 2019) working on current and future unannounced games.

Responsibilities​

• Generate and host original content for our channels (Twitch/YouTube/events) to raise product visibility and awareness
• Planning and scheduling initiatives to drive engagement within the relevant communities
• Positively engage across all channels as a representative of Frontier
• Work closely with internal teams (PR, Marketing, Product Management, Customer Support, and Developers) to better support our gaming communities and communication strategies
• Organise and participate in events and groups to build communities and grow awareness
• Build relationships with players and industry professionals.

I think most of us already assumed what they do, given the title of the role. Looking at the description, there is an emphasis on positively engaging with the community and building a relationship with players. To me, that's pretty obvious. Sadly, this is not what Frontier CMs do, especially not the community part. How much work they do internally with other teams I can't say, but considering that the job entails lots of work with the actual community, there's a clear disconnect between what they do and what the job description says.

 

[Tim Smith]

Hi everyone, been reading this thread and wanted to help clear a few things up

To start, I am indeed the Community Lead for Planet Zoo (among other titles), hello! I'm aware I haven't been posting much on the forums, but I'm always reading and aware of what happens here. A few of you guessed correctly, previously Chanté and Jay were in charge of looking after you all (and did a fantastic job doing it!) which meant I was purposefully less in the forefront but always working in the background on many other things (which again, some of you guessed correctly!). Now that they've both moved onto exciting new adventures you'll see me and Jens jumping in more often taking up those responsibilities. I'm looking forward to getting to know you all a lot better!

As Frontier has grown, there have been a few changes in the way we manage the work and who is in the team, for example we wanted to put a better focus for all our wonderful content creators across the board, and so we hired our first Influencer Manager, Dahlia, who has been talking with content creators not just on Planet Zoo but also many other titles too. Dahlia works together with myself, the CM teams and the dev teams to help give support as much as we can.

With regard to the question of information sharing, we're always aiming to find ways to share more when we can about what's coming up, however we also have to be sure that it'll be definitely coming. Development can be a tricky process and we'd hate to share something too early which then ends up not being possible for example! The dev team are always working hard experimenting with ideas you come up with, but as they don't always work out we don't want to create false expectations.

As a final note for now, I wanted to let you know that we'll have some new CM's joining the team in the near future, and we're really excited about welcoming them (and I imagine you all will be too!)

 

[Jens Erik]

@Jens Erik, i don't want to be greedy because i'm sure you've already seen the comment in the update thread, but don't forget the Malayan Tapir too

Hey Antmar! I know it's probably not the answer you're looking for, but I don't have an update for you about the Malayan Tapir.

 

[Antmar97]

At least we don't have doubts anymore, thanks , maybe you could pass our feedbacks to the devs, i'm not the only one to suggest a second look on the Malayan Tapir and in this forum alone there are a lot of complaints about its look, this post is a well done comparison of the in-game Tapir and an actual Malayan Tapir. We would really appreciate the model fix, like you have done with the binturong and the dhole. Thank you.

Fix the Malayan Tapir Please!

I guess you mean this one? I was looking at it earlier today, it does look good, only the eyes are too clear I think. This poor thing went through the abuse of its life :) The most circulated and edited image of the week on the internet. The sad thing is, it is actually very cute. :D

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[markun]

At least we don't have doubts anymore, thanks , maybe you could pass our feedbaks to the devs, i'm not the only one to suggest a second look on the Malayan Tapir and in this forum alone there are a lot of complaints about its look, this post is a well done comparison of the in-game Tapir and an actual Malayan Tapir. We would really appreciate the model fix, like you have done with the binturong and the dhole. Thank you.

Fix the Malayan Tapir Please!

I guess you mean this one? I was looking at it earlier today, it does look good, only the eyes are too clear I think. This poor thing went through the abuse of its life :) The most circulated and edited image of the week on the internet. The sad thing is, it is actually very cute. :D

forums.frontier.co.uk

I would second this. As much as anything else, it reflects badly on the company. The animals in general look absolutely amazing. They are beautifully done. The Malayan tapir, however looks like it is a poorly done reskin mod. It just isn't up to the standards of the game. I always try to be constructive in my criticism so please don't take this as bashing. It just really needs to be sorted.

 

[NZFanatic]

At least we don't have doubts anymore, thanks , maybe you could pass our feedbaks to the devs, i'm not the only one to suggest a second look on the Malayan Tapir and in this forum alone there are a lot of complaints about its look, this post is a well done comparison of the in-game Tapir and an actual Malayan Tapir. We would really appreciate the model fix, like you have done with the binturong and the dhole. Thank you.

Fix the Malayan Tapir Please!

I guess you mean this one? I was looking at it earlier today, it does look good, only the eyes are too clear I think. This poor thing went through the abuse of its life :) The most circulated and edited image of the week on the internet. The sad thing is, it is actually very cute. :D

forums.frontier.co.uk

Indeed. It's an animal I would really want to use, once I get the SEA Pack, but considering it is just a reskin of the Baird's it feels more like a bad mod than an actual Frontier creation.

 

[Swjosdotschka]

Thanks for addressing us, Tim.

While I totally understand (and always understood) that you can not talk about things that are not set in stone yet (e.g. that might or might not happen), I believe that is not what most of us are talking about. Communication is more than providing a roadmap.
But for the sake of it, lets just address this for a moment: Currently we are getting news 2 weeks ahead of a release. I highly doubt that this short before a release is, when things are actually set. In all honesty, it took Frontier a full year to actually react to the "more animals!" feedback, so Frontiers plans are clearly not as spontanous as it sounds now. But while I absolutely don't agree with the lack of communication regarding a roadmap, that's how Frontier operates, so lets move on to what I personally think most of us mean, when we say "more communication please!"

Us players give a lot of feedback. Detailed, mostly constructive feedback, including but not limited to bugs and features that aren't working ideal. Deep diving is a recent example of a feature we aren't really satisfied with. the climbing frame calculation bug is a bug example, that has been around for a long time now.

Why do we have to ask again and again and again for an update of an issue? You know, "the devs are still investigating it, it's still on our radar, but we have nothing new to share yet" IS communication. WHY is their always a neccesity to open forum topics that almost turn into a poop storm, before we even get an answer to things like that?

Same with the climbing issue. I asked again and again and again if this is still been looked into, if the devs still need save files, if there is something else we can do to help them eliminate / fix this bug. What I got for a loooong time was the sound of a flowstone cave, but no respond. So did others. The only way to have a minimal chance of getting answers to anything is posting in the update threads and totally derailing it. It's beginning to get beyond frustrating.

There are so many ways to communicate with the community without giving away future plans. But none of them happens. We are left with "we got something to sell!" communication time and time again. If you would just not stick to "release communication" only, but even post updates like "we haven't forgotton you, but this bug seems to be persistent, hang in tight, we are still working on it" it would at least show any kind of presence and interest in community feedback.

And besides that: I know there is a saying like "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Well yeah, that is what brought us to this point and it's not a pleasent one. So why not make a "if you don't have anything nice to say, find something nice to say" out of it and just post a compliment or two in popular threads like, for example "What did you do in Planet Zoo today". Show some interest in the product you are selling and the community that is making this product strong. Please.

 

[Tim Smith]

Hey @Swjosdotschka!

It sounds like we're on the same page, as I mentioned before I'll be more active personally here on the forums and that includes sharing updates where possible (even if they are that we don't have further updates!) and absolutely jumping into threads like 'What did you do in Planet Zoo today' is a part of that as well

All loud and clear, so I will see you around the forums

 

[Firestar97]

Thanks for addressing us, Tim.

While I totally understand (and always understood) that you can not talk about things that are not set in stone yet (e.g. that might or might not happen), I believe that is not what most of us are talking about. Communication is more than providing a roadmap.
But for the sake of it, lets just address this for a moment: Currently we are getting news 2 weeks ahead of a release. I highly doubt that this short before a release is, when things are actually set. In all honesty, it took Frontier a full year to actually react to the "more animals!" feedback, so Frontiers plans are clearly not as spontanous as it sounds now. But while I absolutely don't agree with the lack of communication regarding a roadmap, that's how Frontier operates, so lets move on to what I personally think most of us mean, when we say "more communication please!"

Us players give a lot of feedback. Detailed, mostly constructive feedback, including but not limited to bugs and features that aren't working ideal. Deep diving is a recent example of a feature we aren't really satisfied with. the climbing frame calculation bug is a bug example, that has been around for a long time now.

Why do we have to ask again and again and again for an update of an issue? You know, "the devs are still investigating it, it's still on our radar, but we have nothing new to share yet" IS communication. WHY is their always a neccesity to open forum topics that almost turn into a poop storm, before we even get an answer to things like that?

Same with the climbing issue. I asked again and again and again if this is still been looked into, if the devs still need save files, if there is something else we can do to help them eliminate / fix this bug. What I got for a loooong time was the sound of a flowstone cave, but no respond. So did others. The only way to have a minimal chance of getting answers to anything is posting in the update threads and totally derailing it. It's beginning to get beyond frustrating.

There are so many ways to communicate with the community without giving away future plans. But none of them happens. We are left with "we got something to sell!" communication time and time again. If you would just not stick to "release communication" only, but even post updates like "we haven't forgotton you, but this bug seems to be persistent, hang in tight, we are still working on it" it would at least show any kind of presence and interest in community feedback.

And besides that: I know there is a saying like "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Well yeah, that is what brought us to this point and it's not a pleasent one. So why not make a "if you don't have anything nice to say, find something nice to say" out of it and just post a compliment or two in popular threads like, for example "What did you do in Planet Zoo today". Show some interest in the product you are selling and the community that is making this product strong. Please.

At least they seem to try to become a bit more active as can be seen in this Thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...it-of-the-animal-storage.574802/#post-9167523

 

[Swjosdotschka]

At least they seem to try to become a bit more active as can be seen in this Thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...it-of-the-animal-storage.574802/#post-9167523

Saw it right befoe you quoted me. Definately a step in the right direction that I appreciate. I just hope the increased communication will hold longer than a few day this time. I'm afraid we've been there before several times, so lets hope for the best and a definate change.

 

[Bearcat9948]

Hey @Swjosdotschka!

It sounds like we're on the same page, as I mentioned before I'll be more active personally here on the forums and that includes sharing updates where possible (even if they are that we don't have further updates!) and absolutely jumping into threads like 'What did you do in Planet Zoo today' is a part of that as well

All loud and clear, so I will see you around the forums

If I could give you a suggestion: I think something that would be very helpful is a pinned post in the "News and Announcements" section that is updated every time you or Jens communicate something to us in between updates. That way it's not just in whatever specific thread, and people can scroll through one post and see all of your linked responses. There could be a new iteration after each major update, in case some things are revisited or reconsidered.

 

[Firestar97]

If I could give you a suggestion: I think something that would be very helpful is a pinned post in the "News and Announcements" section that is updated every time you or Jens communicate something to us in between updates. That way it's not just in whatever specific thread, and people can scroll through one post and see all of your linked responses. There could be a new iteration after each major update, in case some things are revisited or reconsidered.

Sounds like a interesting Idea. I like it