Where is the exploration?

[Stigbob]

Yes, you see, there is no real "try before you buy", so what you do before you buy is research.

Now it seems that ED has a huge galaxy and I wonder what you'd want with it if not explore it.

So I buy it and I find a design choice that, to me, breaks exploration.

I come to the forums and ask if it's normal.

And I find that the answer is "it's debatable".


Outcome:

• If an alteration is possible I'm welcoming it.
• If it's not possible, I might learn to live with it.
• If it's not possible because the devs need cater to a mindless grinding kind of audience, I'll drop. Is this the part that you find annoying?

But in no way I came to demand an alteration.

About your lack of saltiness, that could also be a matter of debate. Very much off topic now.

You can download the client installer and play the tutorials without buying to see exactly what you are getting, I did before I bought in in 2014. So with ED try before you buy is definitely possible.

If explorations your main thing youd be better off watching exploration gameplay vids pre purchase or zenning out to the game as is as there's no real competition along anything like the same scale.

I don't like 3rd person games, I deal with this world shattering "problem" by not buying or playing them.

 

[Stigbob]

He's a known troll better to ignore him and move on.

Speaking of salty.

 

[Riverside]

Another metric for posts to be compared against that I find useful is Graham's Hierarchy of disagreement:

 

[Crank Larson]

It turns USS to ISS (though I often just use the nav beacon for that).

You mean if you honk, all the USS's then say what is in them in the nav panel? If so, that is new to me - I've always just lined them up and scanned them! That is useful to know - if that is what you mean?

 

[Burke]

The thing with USS you dont actually have to scan them do you? Correct me if i am wrong (its been along time sinse i logged in) but cant you just search thru space like you used to do before the FSS? Which is my preference. So why is the FSS play enforced for scanning planets? It specifically targets that gameplay and says "you have to now do things this way"

 

[Stigbob]

The thing with USS you dont actually have to scan them do you? Correct me if i am wrong (its been along time sinse i logged in) but cant you just search thru space like you used to do before the FSS? Which is my preference. So why is the FSS play enforced for scanning planets? It specifically targets that gameplay and says "you have to now do things this way"

Not true, you can do it either way or blend both.

 

[Old Duck]

• If it's not possible because the devs need cater to a mindless grinding kind of audience, I'll drop. Is this the part that you find annoying

Yes. I find being defined as a "mindless kind of audience" because I like the FSS, insulting. Usually these threads insult not just the players who like the FSS, but the devs as well. Like I said, hate the FSS all you want, but don't be surprised when you get push-back for insulting those who invented it and those who like using it.

Granted, I'm no angel in the "insulting others" department (that includes FDev), but I don't go acting surprised when people "return fire", either. Bunch a space tourists, the lot of you!

ps - you'll note that I do take your side when it comes to bringing back the ADS as a separate, optional module, despite (or perhaps because) being a "mindless kind of audience".

 

[Retropolitan]

Yes. I find being defined as a "mindless kind of audience" because I like the FSS, insulting. Usually these threads insult not just the players who like the FSS, but the devs as well. Like I said, hate the FSS all you want, but don't be surprised when you get push-back for insulting those who invented it and those who like using it.

I hadn't been paying attention to this thread, but this is the second time I've seen the OP assign easily-dismissed motives to people who disagree, just so that they can be dismissed easily. So this is where I stop paying attention again.

 

[[ kraken ]]

I hadn't been paying attention to this thread, but this is the second time I've seen the OP assign easily-dismissed motives to people who disagree, just so that they can be dismissed easily. So this is where I stop paying attention again.

I wrote this

Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't understand. I love ED.

Only because a baseline of Frontier's customers wants their game to be a mindless grind-fest, it doesn't mean that they need to have it their way.

As I said, I'll be back now and then for the panoramas, and I might make my voice heard in that the gameplay in this game is not dead yet. If I was to completely quit now, then the devs couldn't help but think that really all of their customers just want to grind repetitive tasks that a kid could script.

I will also keep looking for titles that are what ED promised to be, and that means that I won't sink any more money in the current project until I see it improve. Then, even if I actually was to find what I'm looking for (not easy) and ED hasn't improved in the meanwhile, I might decide to drop ED entirely, but I'm not sure that's going to happen so soon.

If you still find it odd to have me around, you'll have to bear with it, I guess.

in response to this

Play the games you like is the only sensible choice, hanging around the forums of games you no longer play can be very odd.

and after that it was just play to me. Sorry, no offence meant really.

[edit]

but I understand that if someone joins in the conversation now, it looks very bad.

 

[Stigbob]

I wrote this


in response to this


and after that it was just play to me. Sorry, no offence meant really.

[edit]

but I understand that if someone joins in the conversation now, it looks very bad.

Which I wrote in reply to you announcing quitting the game, making it on topic relevant and well intentioned advice. Even if you don't want to hear it.

But I'll be back to ED now and then to see some cool vistas.

Bazmeson would sneer at this thread from his throne of skulls.

 

[[ kraken ]]

Which I wrote in reply to you announcing quitting the game, making it on topic relevant and well intentioned advice. Even if you don't want to hear it.



Bazmeson would sneer at this thread from his throne of skulls.

Relevant and well intentioned advice, alright!

Well my argument is lost I guess, in lieu of my bad temper.

Fine, keep your FSS. Now I'll have to find another chance to openly debate its features.


[edit]

I know, I'm not making it any better!

 

[Stigbob]

Relevant and well intentioned advice, alright!

Play the video games you enjoy isn't even a remotely controversial viewpoint.

 

[Faded Glory]

And then you have CMDRs just going through and mapping the good stuff, leaving the dregs. I don't think composition should be known until you do a detailed surface scan up close. And there need to be some valuable moon types, maybe He3 or H fuel-rich moons? That way, people will be incentivized to check everything, and rewarded for doing so.

For all the apparent divisiveness around the subject, the FSS wasn't an accident, it was introduced because as far as FD were concerned, not enough players engaged with exploration (rather like not enough engage with CQC, Powerplay, Engineering, multi-crew... The list seems to go on, and the coming II seems to suggest that perhaps not enough are engaging with the Guardian content).

As far as exploration goes, the FSS targets the the things that FD identified were putting players off, namely long SC journeys to scan bodies and tag them (and get pretend credits in return), along with the new DSS the ability to find things on planets, and passive (AKA boring) gameplay. These changes speed up exploration, and that was likely a side goal, after all, over four years in and only about 0.03% of the galaxy explored. While the devs may say that they'd like players to map everything in sight, enforcing that would put them right back to the place that they identified that they needed to get away from to get players out exploring.

While suggestions to make exploration more involved, more skill based, whatever, hold merit, the fact is that FD would rather make it more accessible, have more players do it. The two Adams, when they introduced the FSS in concept and then demonstrated it in the first livestream were at pains to point out that it would be "intuitive, easy to use, and quick", which it is. They want players to get out there and explore, and to do that they feel that the way to encourage it is to make it easier and quicker, more accessible.

As far as players going through mapping the good stuff, and this was often the case before in terms of scanning, which illustrates that FD were absolutely right, those long SC journeys were simply too off putting for many players. On the flip side, with still far less than 1% of the galaxy explored, there's plenty of good stuff still to be found. The problem is you've got to sift through an awful lot of mundane stuff in order to find it...

 

[Libluini]

For me personally, getting everything is easier than with the old system: With the old system, I often took one good luck at a system with 50+ stellar objects in it and just immediately jumped out again. The FSS often tempts me in getting all of those objects scanned down. It's addictive! It's also nice that I can then use the scans to decide which planet is important enough for a probing visit.

All in all, I think the new system is a vast improvement.

 

[[ kraken ]]

For all the apparent divisiveness around the subject, the FSS wasn't an accident, it was introduced because as far as FD were concerned, not enough players engaged with exploration (rather like not enough engage with CQC, Powerplay, Engineering, multi-crew... The list seems to go on, and the coming II seems to suggest that perhaps not enough are engaging with the Guardian content).

As far as exploration goes, the FSS targets the the things that FD identified were putting players off, namely long SC journeys to scan bodies and tag them (and get pretend credits in return), along with the new DSS the ability to find things on planets, and passive (AKA boring) gameplay. These changes speed up exploration, and that was likely a side goal, after all, over four years in and only about 0.03% of the galaxy explored. While the devs may say that they'd like players to map everything in sight, enforcing that would put them right back to the place that they identified that they needed to get away from to get players out exploring.

While suggestions to make exploration more involved, more skill based, whatever, hold merit, the fact is that FD would rather make it more accessible, have more players do it. The two Adams, when they introduced the FSS in concept and then demonstrated it in the first livestream were at pains to point out that it would be "intuitive, easy to use, and quick", which it is. They want players to get out there and explore, and to do that they feel that the way to encourage it is to make it easier and quicker, more accessible.

As far as players going through mapping the good stuff, and this was often the case before in terms of scanning, which illustrates that FD were absolutely right, those long SC journeys were simply too off putting for many players. On the flip side, with still far less than 1% of the galaxy explored, there's plenty of good stuff still to be found. The problem is you've got to sift through an awful lot of mundane stuff in order to find it...

I am sure that exploration is easier and quicker.

But why does it need to be easier and quicker?

So far I have identified a few kinds of exploration:

• Discovering systems
• Discovering worlds
• Discovering content (bio, geo, rarity, ...)

Discovering systems I believe it's as quick as it was before. You enter a system, you get out.

Discovering worlds is probably much faster, only takes a few minutes once you've entered a system.

Discovering content is as fast as discovering worlds, you just have to wait for the blue thing to spin.


And some people (me included) believe that this briefness comes at the expense of fun, because it is a repetitive task.

I assume that ED wants us to investigate their game content thoroughly, but I don't know why it should be important that we discover every icy body. So what would it be like, if you entered a system, and you had a quick way of identifying if there were interesting worlds or content? And if there were, you could focus on them directly? Without scanning every single body?

This way explorers who wanted to go fast could go even faster in certain systems, because they didn't have to bother with all the unimportant worlds. They wouldn't need to discover everything unless they really wanted to. And they would have the possibility to make mistakes while they explore, that is either overlook something important, or assume that there was something important and be found wrong. I believe that the chance of error is a very important game dynamic.

Now, what consequences would this have? Would it make the exploration something more engaging? And if it did, would more people participate?

 

[Burke]

As far as exploration goes, the FSS targets the the things that FD identified were putting players off

How did they identify that? By asking on reddit? Being shot at really puts me off PvP perhaps i can a have a shield that means i dont ever have to worry about it? Traveling was part of exploration just as being shot at is part of PvP. There has been a rude total disregard for what was done before the FSS came along.

They want players to get out there and explore

Im going to assume they want all players to explore and not some small group of chosen. If they want players to explore then forcing the FSS on them was not the way to do it, infact the opposit cause its driven some players away. They are going to have to accept that they might have gotten it wrong. I dont believe they can, being so totally disconnected from the wider game cause they exist in their little bubble with the shills they like to hear. They have gone a long way towards ruining brabens creation and i suspect in the long term its not even going to make that much difference to the numbers. I suspect that plenty of people who gave their opinions didnt like exploration before and wont like it all that much after even of there is a short term uptake. Once you have made the big moneys there isnt really anything else to do that there wasnt before, if you arnt the explorer type you are still going to find it boring.

 

[Faded Glory]

I am sure that exploration is easier and quicker.

But why does it need to be easier and quicker?

So far I have identified a few kinds of exploration:

• Discovering systems
• Discovering worlds
• Discovering content (bio, geo, rarity, ...)

Discovering systems I believe it's as quick as it was before. You enter a system, you get out.

Discovering worlds is probably much faster, only takes a few minutes once you've entered a system.

Discovering content is as fast as discovering worlds, you just have to wait for the blue thing to spin.


And some people (me included) believe that this briefness comes at the expense of fun, because it is a repetitive task.

I assume that ED wants us to investigate their game content thoroughly, but I don't know why it should be important that we discover every icy body. So what would it be like, if you entered a system, and you had a quick way of identifying if there were interesting worlds or content? And if there were, you could focus on them directly? Without scanning every single body?

This way explorers who wanted to go fast could go even faster in certain systems, because they didn't have to bother with all the unimportant worlds. They wouldn't need to discover everything unless they really wanted to. And they would have the possibility to make mistakes while they explore, that is either overlook something important, or assume that there was something important and be found wrong. I believe that the chance of error is a very important game dynamic.

Now, what consequences would this have? Would it make the exploration something more engaging? And if it did, would more people participate?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's necessarily better, I'm just saying that (IMO obviously) there was a reason to why FD did what they did.

To a point, they have actually done what you suggest, just perhaps less subtly than you would like. It is very quick to scan systems, and once you have scanned a body using the FSS you then know whether it is worth visiting. Much depends on what a player finds interesting though, and there are plenty of observations that what is out there to find is underwhelming.

Basically, they've made it quick enough that a player might just as well scan every icy body while looking (for example) for geysers. And of course, there is the possibility of players missing things, because if they don't hang around waiting for POI's to be identified, they may well miss Raxxla - again.

 

[Faded Glory]

How did they identify that? By asking on reddit? Being shot at really puts me off PvP perhaps i can a have a shield that means i dont ever have to worry about it? Traveling was part of exploration just as being shot at is part of PvP. There has been a rude total disregard for what was done before the FSS came along.

It's just my opinion Burke. FD are very good at metrics. SC has been a bugbear from the beginning and continues to be hence the introduction of SC assist. I think they have a very good idea why players didn't take to exploration, and the FSS was targeted to address those things.

Im going to assume they want all players to explore and not some small group of chosen. If they want players to explore then forcing the FSS on them was not the way to do it, infact the opposit cause its driven some players away. They are going to have to accept that they might have gotten it wrong. I dont believe they can, being so totally disconnected from the wider game cause they exist in their little bubble with the shills they like to hear. They have gone a long way towards ruining brabens creation and i suspect in the long term its not even going to make that much difference to the numbers. I suspect that plenty of people who gave their opinions didnt like exploration before and wont like it all that much after even of there is a short term uptake. Once you have made the big moneys there isnt really anything else to do that there wasnt before, if you arnt the explorer type you are still going to find it boring.

And you do know I am fully in favor of an optional ADS being put back in. I agree that they disenfranchised a type of explorer, and I don't see that they needed to do that, but it seems that they have quite a specific view on why people play the game, and apparently earning credits seems to be quite high on the list of reasons.

At this point, I kind of agree with Riverside that they simply didn't think anybody would miss the ADS reveal based upon the ease and speed of the FSS, and the fact that players could earn credits hand over fist using it, and in this sense it was an oversight to remove it. I also agree that once you've earned the credits to get to Elite and unless the stuff that they have (and will in the future) put in to be found is compelling enough to keep one occupied then players will indeed stop exploring.

At which point they will presumably revisit it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

As one who stands in the "I like the 'new' FSS" as well as "The ADS was fine" camp -basically I couldn't care less what tool is used to identify one's current destination - I've tried not to be too biased in my comments (I may not have succeeded) but have argued in the past that the removal of the ADS could be in preparation for 'something new' which the old scanner couldn't detect as that made eminent sense for the removal of the ADS.

This game (along with many MMO's) has to evolve to cater to the majority of players, the Dev's have to follow that course regardless of how I (I can only speak my opinion) feel about it, should the day come when it has divorced itself from the way I'd like to play, I'll stop playing - it won't bother the Dev's as thay have already had my small contribution and I have had a really cheap (in pence/hour) game and enjoyed it.

Change is inevitable, we only have two choices to make regarding them, complaining about them is a release, but unless the negative response is overwhelming they are unlikely to be reverted, such is life.

 

[Burke]

At which point they will presumably revisit it.

Im not hopeful. I see threads on the forum along the lines of "credits meaningless" cause everybody is so rich. I just annoys me that they took notice of people who play a space game and then complain about travel time. All the effort to make the galaxy and those systems and then selling it as such, what did anybody expect. If being able to go 300 times light speed and more wasnt enough they were probably in the wrong game