Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

TheCMDR FormerlyKnownAsCanasta

TheCMDR FormerlyKnownAsCanasta
Elite II and Elite III could almost be classed as simulations, ED is just an arcade game to keep the sales up and the console players happy.

That is why you can enter a station at high speed and use the tower at the rear of the landing pad as a "brake" as seen on many youtube videos
 

badibeat

badibeat
Still, I think there are two things FDev could do to help us HOTAS users:

1) Dead-zones

My stick (Logitech X56 Rhino) has sufficiently precise, reproducible and fast yx sensors (analog hall from the looks, with a magnet on the bottom of the stick). This can be easily verified using DIView when switching to raw data for an axis. (I highly recommend DIView also to set centres and to reduce the scales on the thumb sticks to get rectangular response for them.)

The same is not exactly true for the centering mechanics. Depending from which side I go to the center, the position of my arm or whether I release the stick to self center freely, the axis stops at different values, with significant variance. (I use soft springs for comfort and to reduce strain on my joints. I'd like to have a softer spring for the twist, too).
For relaxed flying I have to set a dead-zone around the center which keeps my ship from rotating if I do not keep my arm in an exact straight position.

However, this dead-zone severely hampers speed and accuracy to compensate small movements around zero, whenever zero is crossed.
Therefore I suggest as a minimum to allow separate dead-zones configuration for FA off. Since this would still not eliminate the dead-zone for normal flight, a keybind to toggle alternate flight controls including at least a dead-zone setting for the rotationals might be even better.

If I understand correctly, Relative Mouse Mode effectively eliminates dead-zones.

2) Adjustable curves for analog axes

Just give us that, in-game, to have increased sensitivity around the center. I am disappointed that I still should rely on unwieldy third party tools just to adjust the curves.

Edit: I have read the following post after posting mine, I fully agree:
A C Ender said:
Turning of relative mouse with FA off is the same as removing the springs from a joystick. It works but because you have no centering mechanism it's a lot harder.
Click to expand...
 
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Captain Willard

Captain Willard
Same thing in war thunder. m+k rules in there. I quit that game. Allowing any controller to over shadow all others is just lame in any mp game.
The mouse needs to be debuffed back to hotas settings when a new game is released.
Whiners would sure cry but I prefer a level playing field. Let them cry.
m+k, console controllers and hotas should all work the same.
 
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Space Mage

S
Captain Willard said:
Same thing in war thunder. m+k rules in there. I quit that game. Allowing any controller to over shadow all others is just lame in any mp game.
The mouse needs to be debuffed back to hotas settings when a new game is released.
Whiners would sure cry but I prefer a level playing field. Let them cry.
m+k, console controllers and hotas should all work the same.
Click to expand...
They do all work the same. OP just doesn't understand, well anything really.
 

Deleted member 192138

D
Captain Willard said:
Same thing in war thunder. m+k rules in there. I quit that game. Allowing any controller to over shadow all others is just lame in any mp game.
The mouse needs to be debuffed back to hotas settings when a new game is released.
Whiners would sure cry but I prefer a level playing field. Let them cry.
m+k, console controllers and hotas should all work the same.
Click to expand...
Glad we're denying HOTAS users a Z axis and pedals to nerf us all to the level of gamepads.
 

Bantha

Bantha
I have been playing ED since 2014, and tried both mouse and keyboard, and HOTAS.
FA off with mouse and keyboard is SO MUCH easier, it really is! On M&K, permanent FA off is a viable option. Not so with HOTAS, you really need to mix it up more, off/on/off...
And it’s not about gitting gud, it’s just the mechanics.
For PvP I believe M&K players do have the advantage. But, for me, I much prefer to play with HOTAS, with my Oculus Rift. I use the X52 Pro and it is WAY more immersive, and that’s what’s most important to me. VR and HOTAS make this the most enjoyable game I have ever played, bar none.

Now, given that there are differences between M&K and HOTAS, and arguably advantages to the M&K players, I believe Frontier could offer a third option.
FA on, FA off, and FA mixed. FA mixed would stabalise rotation, as per the posts above. I get that the devs have apparently ruled this out, but I think it should be re-visited.

There IS a difference, and it should be balanced. Imagine if it was the other way round, and HOTAS players had the advantage.
Imagine the outcry from the poor M&K players, the extra financial outlay etc... My response - git a job
 
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A C Ender

A C Ender
Being more humble wouldn't hurt your cause. Why should "rich" joystick users with lots of room at their PC be the ones who decide at what levels others should confirm to? Besides that, almost everyone agree that gamepads is objectively the worst - so let's nerf everyone down to their level with total numbers of individual keys limited, steep curves with large dead zones on analog axles etc.

You are completely ignoring that your "solution" would also be available for all k&m users, and as have been pointed out before, your perceived m&k advantage is -not- from relative mouse, but from familiarity and ergonomics. Almost everyone is used to use a mouse for hours a day even outside of gaming. You can also move the mouse in small movements with just your fingers, which is easier to perform more precise than large movement with your hand. From your shoulder/elbow. That's what can cause m&k to feel easier and aim better. Not anything to do with relative mouse.

Also note that every single good combat pilot will never fly 100% one mode, but toggle for the advantages of both. Joystick got the advantage of being able to stay in either mode for long times without the drawbacks of using relative mouse with FA-on. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, try flying FA-on with relative mouse on in combat for a few minutes and tell me how that works out for you...
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
Bantha said:
I have been playing ED since 2014, and tried both mouse and keyboard, and HOTAS.
FA off with mouse and keyboard is SO MUCH easier, it really is! On M&K, permanent FA off is a viable option. Not so with HOTAS, you really need to mix it up more, off/on/off...
And it’s not about gitting gud, it’s just the mechanics.
For PvP I believe M&K players do have the advantage. But, for me, I much prefer to play with HOTAS, with my Oculus Rift. I use the X52 Pro and it is WAY more immersive, and that’s what’s most important to me. VR and HOTAS make this the most enjoyable game I have ever played, bar none.

Now, given that there are differences between M&K and HOTAS, and arguably advantages to the M&K players, I believe Frontier could offer a third option.
FA on, FA off, and FA mixed. FA mixed would stabalise rotation, as per the posts above. I get that the devs have apparently ruled this out, but I think it should be re-visited.

There IS a difference, and it should be balanced. Imagine if it was the other way round, and HOTAS players had the advantage.
Imagine the outcry from the poor M&K players, the extra financial outlay etc... My response - git a job
Click to expand...

Erm I fly 100% FA-off first with KB+M and now with HOTAS and it perfectly viable with any and all control methods...

So I would totally disagree - it is about getting good, at your own pace with whatever control scheme you want. Got very little to do with the actual game mechanics as they work the same regardless of input method...
 

PeLucheuh

PeLucheuh
Bantha said:
I have been playing ED since 2014, and tried both mouse and keyboard, and HOTAS.
FA off with mouse and keyboard is SO MUCH easier, it really is! On M&K, permanent FA off is a viable option. Not so with HOTAS, you really need to mix it up more, off/on/off...
And it’s not about gitting gud, it’s just the mechanics.
For PvP I believe M&K players do have the advantage. But, for me, I much prefer to play with HOTAS, with my Oculus Rift. I use the X52 Pro and it is WAY more immersive, and that’s what’s most important to me. VR and HOTAS make this the most enjoyable game I have ever played, bar none.

Now, given that there are differences between M&K and HOTAS, and arguably advantages to the M&K players, I believe Frontier could offer a third option.
FA on, FA off, and FA mixed. FA mixed would stabalise rotation, as per the posts above. I get that the devs have apparently ruled this out, but I think it should be re-visited.

There IS a difference, and it should be balanced. Imagine if it was the other way round, and HOTAS players had the advantage.
Imagine the outcry from the poor M&K players, the extra financial outlay etc... My response - git a job
Click to expand...
There are negligeable differences. HOTAS is more immersive and has the advantage of a better speed control.
But as explained countless time now, all types of inputs are already balanced (thanks to relative mouse).
If anything, Rotational assist correction should be on independant axis you can enable/disable but available to all control types to guarantee balance and fairness.
 
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Riverside

Riverside
This reminds me of my sim-racing days, with arguments over whether the swingman camera view should be banned (even though there was no possible way to police it), or the rows over paddle shifters (where the game had a fixed time for each gearchange) vs H-gate+clutch shifters (where shifting could in theory be almost instant but in reality it was much easier to make a mistake). The better driver won anyway, as long as they had analogue controls and were familiar with them.
 

Bantha

Bantha
A C Ender said:
Being more humble wouldn't hurt your cause. Why should "rich" joystick users with lots of room at their PC be the ones who decide at what levels others should confirm to?
Click to expand...

I don’t understand why you would make this comment.

I am not asking you or anyone else to conform to any levels set by me or anyone else.

I am pointing out that there is a difference, and I have offered a potential solution to fix that difference. It would not matter at all to a mouse player, their input would not change (although of course the additional FA option I suggest should be available to all).

So how do you reach the conclusion that I am asking other players to conform to a different level, set by me?! Where does that conclusion come from?!

In terms of being humble, I obviously made the contentious comment “git a job” to make a point. If the HOTAS system was perceived to be advantageous, I believe there would be an outcry. This is because not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to afford a HOTAS, and so the advantage could be described as monetary - if you can afford a full set up, you have the PvP advantage. This would of course be a valid argument to make, and I believe the community would kick up such a storm that the devs would be forced in to making changes - and rightly so!

But because it’s the other way round, because the HOTAS is the expensive system, anyone with a HOTAS who makes the claim that it is more difficult, is not listened to.

The reason I said “git a job” is because of the tedious inevitability that someone would say “git good”.

And lo and behold, the very next comment below yours states “it is about getting good”.

This infers that I’m not good.

Talk to me about humility...
 
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Deleted member 192138

D
Bantha said:
The reason I said “git a job” is because of the tedious inevitability that someone would say “git good”.
Click to expand...
The funniest part is Madrax is probably the least "git gud scrub" mindset of anyone I've come across playing Elite. But people are so afraid of the words "get" and "good" being together that they seem to think they need to be able to skip practice and training to develop a skill to a high level.
 

Ant_Solo

Ant_Solo
Telling someone to git a job if they say they can't afford something is a really repugnant thing to do at any time but given what is going on in the world it is much worse. I am lucky that I have a fairly secure job but I know lots of intelligent hard working people who's livelihood is at risk due simply to the sector they work in. You have no idea about anyone else's circumstance.

To compare it to saying "Git gud" in a video game is ridiculous.

If you have any decency as a human being you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

Bantha said:
The reason I said “git a job” is because of the tedious inevitability that someone would say “git good”.
Click to expand...
 

A C Ender

A C Ender
Bantha said:
I don’t understand why you would make this comment.

...

In terms of being humble, I obviously made the contentious comment “git a job” to make a point.
Click to expand...
Bantha said:
There IS a difference, and it should be balanced. Imagine the outcry from the poor M&K players, the extra financial outlay etc... My response - git a job
Click to expand...
Yes you do.

Bantha said:
So how do you reach the conclusion that I am asking other players to conform to a different level, set by me?! Where does that conclusion come from?!
Click to expand...
Because you believe M&K is objectively better and that if they can do something better than you, regardless of other drawbacks, everyone else should be able to do that thing in the exact same way. If you flip the argument then everyone else need to conform to the level of a HOTAS, which is all you're talking about. You didn't clearly state if the mixed FA-off would be available for only HOTAS in your first post, but it is logically implied, as if it's available to K&M and you think mixed FA-off would be an advantage, then K&M would also get that advantage. So your second post saying it would be available to all is a contradiction; since it would then logically not give HOTAS any way to close your perceived gap to K&M. This also doesn't address the point I raised about objective disadvantages of gamepads.


Bantha said:
The reason I said “git a job” is because of the tedious inevitability that someone would say “git good”.

And lo and behold, the very next comment below yours states “it is about getting good”.

This infers that I’m not good.

Talk to me about humility...
Click to expand...
Did I say that? No, so using that argument against me as for why you shouldn't be humble is stupid.

It is about getting good at your chosen control method. I even stated why K&M may be perceived as better by some, and one objective advantage of it (better fine motor control). I also didn't say HOTAS wasn't more difficult. I just don't agree that K&M is objectively better. If it was, the very best combat pilots would all use K&M.
 
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