Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

[Ant_Solo]

@Ant_Solo
no i claim the following
relative mouse: it calculates in a genius way how much counter rotation should be given that the ship does what the pilots points to with the mouse moves
and it does this on the fly constantly
its a master piece of software engineering. basically it stores the other prior moves and calculates the trust needed to control the rotation for the actual move
and it does this all the time
thats the reason you can stop a rotation after a full flip in a second and its hard as hell to do the same with a stick. you will oversteer and need much more time to be stable again even if you are good.

LMAO - this is SO much worse. Obviously it is completely wrong, FAoff simply gives trust in the direction you move the mouse and stops applying thrust when you stop moving it.

But even if you what you said was true they way you think it would solve this problem is extraordinary. Rather than just take the current thrust attributes of your ship and apply the appropriate counter you think it stores your actual moves and works it out from them. That is a terrible way to solve this problem.

I find it hilarious and a little worrying that this is what you think.

Lastly, does anyone actually use rotate on their mouse? I thought everyone flying M&K FAoff had rotate on A and D on the keyboard like sane people.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

@Sanderling
i know you are one of the bast racers out there.

but just to prohibit my confusion. you really say aiming rail guns with sticks with rotation is easy in perma fa off. ?

On the very rare occasions I bother with combat, yeah - don't seem to have any problem with it.

 

[slowbrain_jaym]

"why am I still bad at the game after playing non stop for 5 years??"

"Everyone else is cheating!!!"

OK

 

[Shields Offline]

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being serious or if you're a PVPer trying to troll the rest of the community.

From your first post:

I first try to align the rail gun in the middle of the sun

From your latest post:

impressive but rail gun aim is a difference monster

 

[TEBORI]

@Sanderling well fuego, a very experienced and good pvp fighter (for me top 5 of hotas fa off pilots), explained a few posts before that it is much harder for him to aim the rail gun with stick.
so maybe you are exceptional talented here.
but for many other pilots this new newtonien mode would be very welcome i guess.

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

Still waiting for that blasted relative mouse toggle, so I can FA-off too...

 

[Deleted member 121570]

@Sanderling well fuego, a very experienced and good pvp fighter (for me top 5 of hotas fa off pilots), explained a few posts before that it is much harder for him to aim the rail gun with stick.
so maybe you are exceptional talented here.
but for many other pilots this new newtonien mode would be very welcome i guess.

I do agree with that - assists can help people have fun, which is the only important thing imho.
Nothing wrong in my mind with adding an option in a menu that enables that for more ppl.

 

[Ant_Solo]

@Sanderling well fuego, a very experienced and good pvp fighter (for me top 5 of hotas fa off pilots), ex

In SPEAR right? You mean he is top 5 of HOTAS FAoff in SPEAR.

 

[Hooplah]

Mouse and keyboard has always been the best controls for combat in the Elite games when it was available. I could not get to Elite in FFE without using them. Those skills in Elite Dangerous maybe per tradition are still the best for combat. Meanwhile being lazy I'll fly with a HOTAS and enjoy the game.

 

[Fuego Estelar]

In SPEAR right? You mean he is top 5 of HOTAS FAoff in SPEAR.

Well, I wold not say top 5 in spear or wherever, but I think I am not a bad pilot and I know what I am talking about when I say in most situations (specially railguns and ship stabilization) the difference between mouse and sticks is noticeable

 

[Madrax573]

This again?

Honestly Relative mouse is nothing more than a software simulation of the mechanical recenter springs on a joystick...

I logged 2k+ hours as a KB+M pilot (vast majority 100% FA-off) and recently switched to HOTAS and once I got used to the difference in control there is no difference in my ability to hit stuff...

The control to hit anything simply comes with time and practice like anything that involves fine motor skills... Sanderling is prime example of such... that bloke has such fine control over any ship he flies it is crazy... I've seen him land a full mag of enforcer rounds while flying sideways through narrow canyons!! He just does do combat much as it's of no interest to him...

 

[Fuego Estelar]

Mouse and keyboard has always been the best controls for combat in the Elite games when it was available. I could not get to Elite in FFE without using them. Those skills in Elite Dangerous maybe per tradition are still the best for combat. Meanwhile being lazy I'll fly with a HOTAS and enjoy the game.

Sorry what means FFE?

 

[thistle]

....

Hahaha.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

Yes. The ideal solution to this would be preserving rotation auto-stabilization in FA OFF.
So, in FA OFF the linear speed/motion/acceleration would behave as it currently does.
But angular rotation would at the same time behave like with FA ON - automatically stopping by counter impulses when Stick is in neutral position.
But FDev made stupid decision.

The funny thing is that in Star "SCAMNOTASIM" Citizen the "FA OFF" mode (called there "Decoupled") is implemented exactly as mentioned above "ideal solution" - ship rotation auto-stabilizes, while linear motion is fully newtonian with neccessity to apply counter impulses.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxBd-9O6N58

Oh so this is all about wanting Elite's FAOff to match Star Citizen's decoupled

 

[Quantis Trap]

To to derail the converation too much, but when TEBORI compared Star Citizen's flight model to Elite Dangerous it got me thinking about the fact that every time I've flown in SC (much less often than Elite Dangerous) it's always felt far inferior to the Elite Dangerous flight model. Heck, SC even feels inferior to the flight model of X4 in my book. X4 also has an FA-Off type mode by the way.

Have it just not put in enough flying time in SC or is it quite bad?

 

[Ant_Solo]

when I say in most situations (specially railguns and ship stabilization) the difference between mouse and sticks is noticeable

Just to be clear and to be fair I don't disagree with this at all. I also think there are some improvements to how the game handles HOTAS would be a good thing, curves is an obvious one.

My objection is to the incorrect claims on how relative mouse works and I have some reservations about adding in assistance to the FAoff HOTAS controls (although if they were introduced in a way that gave some of the advantages AND disadvantages of FAon then it could work).

 

[TEBORI]

@CMDR QUANTIS TRAP

the mode of decoupled only from star citizen is meant here. and it was only meant to explain how the new fa off mode for hotas hosas would work.

the elite flight model would not change at all but in fa off the stick players would have assistance in the rotation axes to equal the relative mouse advantage.

 

[Hooplah]

Sorry what means FFE?

Frontier: First Encounters released in April of 1995. Here is a website dedicated to it I keep paying for just because I love the game. It had more bugs than any other game but me and many others still around made it playable.

 

[CMDR Slee Piboi]

FAoff simply gives trust in the direction you move the mouse and stops applying thrust when you stop moving it.

This. And the settings are able to simulate the virtual joystick's "springs"/return to zero capability that cannot be matched by any physical stick. Unfair? Debatable. Doesn't change how relative mouse actually works, though.

But even if you what you said was true they way you think it would solve this problem is extraordinary. Rather than just take the current thrust attributes of your ship and apply the appropriate counter you think it stores your actual moves and works it out from them. That is a terrible way to solve this problem.

Also this. I implemented a 6DOF virtual joystick a couple of months ago for a VR controller, and made a simple FAOFFish "flight model" mockup to test it.

Source: https://vimeo.com/393250431


It would work by grabbing the virtual joystick which would set that position and orientation of the VR controller as the origo for the virtual joystick (this was a QoL thing so you wouldn't have to find the joystick's zero point, rather the joystick snap to your controller's position and work from there) and all offsets around that point would be translated into force and torque of the platform the user was attached to.

If you released the grab button on the VR controller, it would simply set the v-joystick values to zero, producing no additional forces/acceleration, and of course the vehicle would stay in its current motion. Then you could grab the virtual joystick and apply a countering force to cancel out whatever linear or rotational speeds your vehicle was having.

I can't for the life of me figure out why I would have made it any more complicated than that.

 

[Old Duck]

Will always fly FA-OFF with a HOTAS, just more natural for me, but it is laughable how easy it is with a mouse. I can't take the PvP guys seriously because of that, might as well be playing CoD with an aimbot.

PvPers who don't fly with K&M use Frags

(that's meant to poke fun at PvPers BTW, in a light-hearted "don't take me too seriously" manner)

Yes. The ideal solution to this would be preserving rotation auto-stabilization in FA OFF.

This is how FA-off works in Space Engineers, and it is far superior IMO. Though you can manually override the gyros and put yourself in an "FA-off" rotation if you want to.