Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

Shields Offline

S
Oh, absolutely, @Barnard17. It was just idle wondering on my part. The last time I had a glimpse into the PVP world, KBM was (anecdotally) very popular, though I know the meta isn't rapidfire pulses and multis or other high time-on-target weapons anymore as it was back then... Comparing that to the non-PVP world where HOTASes seem to gain much more praise, it just got me wondering what people in the CQC world like the most.

Edit to add, since this was posted while I was typing:
all acceleration is kept until it is countered by an acceleration in the opposite direction.
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This is incorrect. Acceleration in FA off stops the moment you stop applying input. Movement continues until countered, acceleration does not.
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
if you give foward thrust in fa off until 100 ms and stop the impulse you will keep the 100 ms forever except you ram an object
you have to activate backword thrust in the same amount to stop the ship.
this is newtonien physics.
 

Shields Offline

S
TEBORI said:
all acceleration is kept until it is countered by an acceleration in the opposite direction.
Click to expand...
TEBORI said:
if you give foward thrust in fa off until 100 ms and stop the impulse you will keep the 100 ms forever except you ram an object
you have to activate backword thrust in the same amount to stop the ship.
this is newtonien physics.
Click to expand...

You're not talking about acceleration there, you're talking about motion and/or velocity.
 

Ant_Solo

Ant_Solo
TEBORI said:
if you give foward thrust in fa off until 100 ms and stop the impulse you will keep the 100 ms forever except you ram an object
you have to activate backword thrust in the same amount to stop the ship.
this is newtonien physics.
Click to expand...

Yes, well done. You keep the 100m/s velocity, just like I clearly stated. You do not keep accelerating as you claimed.

TEBORI said:
@Madrax573
all acceleration is kept until it is countered by an acceleration in the opposite direction.
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It is difficult to have a sensible conversation with someone on this subject that is so confident about their knowledge but doesn't know what the difference between acceleration and velocity or thrust and counter thrust.
 

PeLucheuh

PeLucheuh
Ant_Solo said:
LMAO - this is SO much worse. Obviously it is completely wrong, FAoff simply gives trust in the direction you move the mouse and stops applying thrust when you stop moving it.

But even if you what you said was true they way you think it would solve this problem is extraordinary. Rather than just take the current thrust attributes of your ship and apply the appropriate counter you think it stores your actual moves and works it out from them. That is a terrible way to solve this problem.

I find it hilarious and a little worrying that this is what you think.

Lastly, does anyone actually use rotate on their mouse? I thought everyone flying M&K FAoff had rotate on A and D on the keyboard like sane people.
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I use roll on mouse. Nothing wrong with it tbh ^^
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
i know the difference exactly maybe not the correct words. but not all here are native speakers also so i see no problem at all.
 

Shields Offline

S
Ant_Solo said:
It is difficult to have a sensible conversation with someone on this subject that is so confident about their knowledge but doesn't know what the difference between acceleration and velocity or thrust and counter thrust.
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I think it's a matter of English not being his native language, which I can't fault him for, as long as the meaning is conveyed. It can, unfortunately, become an issue in what is necessarily a conversation with technical terminology
 

Morbad

Morbad
ObiW said:
Which is why I don't play perma FA off even though the idea is very appealing to me.
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I wouldn't play perma FA off even if I somehow managed to make my aim superior in FA Off.

There are major arbitrary differences in thruster power between the two flight modes that make insisting on one or the other quite suboptimal, no matter how well practiced one is. FA Off, in addition to the obvious effects, increases positive acceleration rates by about 30%, while FA On increases negative acceleration rates by around three fold. Each mode has attributes that the other cannot duplicate, no matter how skilled the pilot is.

Kinda bizarre, and like many other aspects of the game, not the way I'd have done things, but it is what it is.
 
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Madrax573

Madrax573
Sorry @TEBORI but in case I again disagree....

True Newtonian is way more complex that what is represented in ED... if you play orbiter then you really should understand this...

Newtonian does not have any explanation about the change in rotations when in the blue zone.. or why do you decelerate from boost speed etc...

There are game reason why it is in there and for the most part I agree with them but ED is NOT true Newtonian... Come close but not true Newtonian...
 

TEBORI

TEBORI
@Morbad if you dont mind i would be interested in your opinion what would be the outcome if this would be implemented as option.
link directs to a specific post.

Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

Try it yourself and you will immediately notice the difference This has nothing to do with any fine motor skills we have trained in using the mouse, but is solely due to the software support that the relative mouse provides. I first try to align the rail gun in the middle of the sun with a high...
forums.frontier.co.uk forums.frontier.co.uk
 

THECATISDEAD

T
TEBORI said:
Try it yourself and you will immediately notice the difference
This has nothing to do with any fine motor skills we have trained in using the mouse, but is solely due to the software support that the relative mouse provides.

I first try to align the rail gun in the middle of the sun with a high quality joystick. As soon as I have succeeded, I deviate from this intentionally and try to align myself in the middle of the sun again as fast as possible.

In the first part of the video I do this with the joystick and in the second part of the video I do it with a mouse with relative mouse with full strength.

The difference is clearly visible here. With the mouse I can easily and quickly align myself in the middle of the sun with no great effort with fine adjustment but with the joystick I deviate much further from the sun and it takes much longer and it is much more difficult to place the rail gun in the middle of the sun again because I have to compensate the rotations initiated by the joystick myself completely exactly with counter movements of the stick.

The reason that this is much easier with the mouse is that it supports the opposite rotation movements that the relative mouse offers and acts as a kind of stabilizer in FA OFF mode.

Source: https://youtu.be/hpRLALj89QY
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adjustment curves exist
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
RELSPI said:
It's harder because you're wiggling a control system designed for pointing an entire fighter jet, rather than manipulating a tool designed for pointing a digital cursor at relatively tiny targets. What we are doing in the game is pointing a set of digital cursors at relatively tiny targets, except the cursors constantly slide all over the place. The joystick as a mode of control is not designed for FA-Off flight, because no fighter jet has to deal with zero-gravity vacuum.
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Yet most conventional ships we have that are designed for 6 dof use sticks... often twin...
 
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