Why are Fdev so bad at community management?

[Lordxenu]

Yes indeed, as consumers we are all perfectly entitled to dislike a company decision, any company’s decisions.

I don’t think anyone is expecting everyone to be happy about those. The most obvious answer you have to it if you don’t like something is to vote with your wallet.

But let’s not confuse that with some kind of misplaced demand or entitlement based on a generalization of a very different marketing/funding period of the game history.

Horizons and every expansion that comes after has been and is, so far, under the full finance and responsibility of a company that has complete control on its decisions and owes us nothing in that regard (some of those products have even been, and still are, free!).

But with that “power” also comes great “responsibility” and if those decisions are wrong or a too large chunk of the market vote with their wallets then they will be punished for it. It is up to them entirely to succeed or fail based on their own actions. We are not owed much at all in that picture (communication-wise or otherwise, and with the exception probably of a minority of LEPers). We have a different kind of “power” though. The wallet one.

This makes a lot of sense the problem for me is their communication approach is separate from the game. The product I bought (horizons) is still one of the best games I've ever bought. And because it is one of the best games I am likely to continue to support it.

Their communication approach doesn't affect me enough to want to stop supporting the game but it does make me want to stop supporting Fdev. I would be less likely to recommend their games to other people or support any of their games other than Elite.

I have absolutely no right to better communications or better community management it would be nice but realistically it doesn't alter the quality of the game.

All we could do is hope that when Will did look at this thread yesterday that he saw it as a prompt to engage but clearly he didn't and clearly as a company Fdev have no interest in engaging with the community so it will continue to be a great game supported by terrible communications.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Game. Set. Match.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1103774060138430466

Source: https://twitter.com/BoMarit89/status/1103774060138430466?s=19

I will agree with OP on one point though; Warframe's community management is better. This is not a knock on Frontier's team! <3 you guys. Warframe is a F2P game built around the player-base (instead of the other way around); this reflects in everything the company does; from development to community engagement.

 

[Lordxenu]

Game. Set. Match.



I will agree with OP on one point though; Warframe's community management is better. This is not a knock on Frontier's team! <3 you guys. Warframe is a F2P game built around the player-base (instead of the other way around); this reflects in everything the company does; from development to community engagement.

I get the desire to defend them but you have also just claimed "game. set. match." because Fdev won community management team of the year then you've immediately said Warframe are better so if they are best of the year would they not be better than DE?

Also claiming it's because warframe is F2P meaning they must be better well Elite is now frequently around £6.99 so it's not miles away from F2P.

I think there's just so much room for them to improve their engagement and point blank defending them because of an award the team won (that apparently very few agree with since most people say at the very least DE are better) doesn't let us raise some real valid points.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

I said "Game Set Match" because Frontier won the award; which is directly contrary to "Why are Fdev so bad at community management?".

Digital Extreme's is a Canadian company with no offices in the UK. MCV Awards celebrate UK companies, or companies with a UK presence. Bethesda, for example. So whilst Frontier did win the MCV for best CM team (based on a UK selection of companies), that doesn't automatically imply they are the best in the world. In my opinion, Frontier's winning of the MCV is well deserved; but I do think the DE team is better overall.

EDIT: I wasn't able to find a complete list of entrants to the MCV Awards; only the finalists; with names like PlayStation UK, Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment UK etc implying UK companies only, or companies with a UK presence. So I can't tell, without some research, if DE were part of the entrants or not.

I get the desire to defend them but you have also just claimed "game. set. match." because Fdev won community management team of the year then you've immediately said Warframe are better so if they are best of the year would they not be better than DE?

Warframe is completely F2P. You do not have to spend a cent. Which means, DE needs their playerbase to be engaged and involved in the game. Turn your playerbase into a long term base, and you have a constant source of income; the value of that income is variable of course, which is why DE introduced TennoGen; which allows players to make weapon and 'Frame skins to their aesthetic. Further hooking players into the game.

EDIT: Clarity - DE spends a lot of money on the community. Every year we get TennoCon (similar to BlizzCon et al); they give away thousands of Platinum every week in their DevStreams. The Developers are constantly Tweeting what they are busy with, giving players an insight into what's going on (you won't believe the positive impact this has on the players). They have TennoGen, where they add player-made content to the game which players can then buy with a portion of the cost going BACK to the player that made the cosmetic.

Frontier benefits from each game sale, expansion and cosmetic purchase. Warframe benefits from Platinum, TennoGen and TennoCon sales; and that's it. It's in their best interest to be as player-centric as they can afford to be.

In my opinion, Frontier should look at how Digital Extreme's interacts with it's players, and take a few pages out of their book.
Frontier would, right off the bat, greatly benefit from a DevStream of their own; where we have department heads sitting around, joking and laughing and showing off what their teams have been busy with, what's coming in the future etc.

DE's community team aren't better because Warframe is free. They are better because they have to be better because Warframe is free. If that makes sense?

Also claiming it's because warframe is F2P meaning they must be better well Elite is now frequently around £6.99 so it's not miles away from F2P.

I think there's just so much room for them to improve their engagement and point blank defending them because of an award the team won (that apparently very few agree with since most people say at the very least DE are better) doesn't let us raise some real valid points.

See above.

 

[Lordxenu]

I said "Game Set Match" because Frontier won the award; which is directly contrary to "Why are Fdev so bad at community management?".

Digital Extreme's is a Canadian company with no offices in the UK. MCV Awards celebrate UK companies, or companies with a UK presence. Bethesda, for example. So whilst Frontier did win the MCV for best CM team (based on a UK selection of companies), that doesn't automatically imply they are the best in the world. In my opinion, Frontier's winning of the MCV is well deserved; but I do think the DE team is better overall.

EDIT: I wasn't able to find a complete list of entrants to the MCV Awards; only the finalists; with names like PlayStation UK, Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment UK etc implying UK companies only, or companies with a UK presence. So I can't tell, without some research, if DE were part of the entrants or not.




Warframe is completely F2P. You do not have to spend a cent. Which means, DE needs their playerbase to be engaged and involved in the game. Turn your playerbase into a long term base, and you have a constant source of income; the value of that income is variable of course, which is why DE introduced TennoGen; which allows players to make weapon and 'Frame skins to their aesthetic. Further hooking players into the game.


See above.

So the thread le was very tongue in cheek I think I called it as click baity Fdev are by no means the worst at this. And it is great they won the award. What frustrates me is the first response to this was Factabulous saying "they wont he award so you're wrong".

Warframe is indeed 100% F2P but it is sustained by engaging players and their mantra is very much that they go after the players that want to support them not feel they have to spend money which is admirable.

But Fdev are now surely relying more and more on microtransactions and their microtransaction system for cosmetics is one I'm a fan of I think it is very fair but they will get more sales by getting more people engaged.

I have bought paintjobs in the past purely to give Fdev money because I was so on board with them. Because they've completely stopped caring about the community now I'm less inclined to want to give them money just to support them.

This (as are the rest of my comments on here) is only my view and not shared by everyone

 

[Old Duck]

if someone like Todd Howard from Bethsesda took over, who had dumbed down the rpg mechanics of the ES series progressively since Morrowind.

But I love Skyrim!

Some of the excessive critics stay and lurk around until another opportune to strike at FD per the cycles as usual. The ones that leave usually come back when a new update is released (because other space games don't last or are never as unique and special as ED) and may say the same thing , game is crap, ragequit again etc.

The game is great, the shadows are crap (from an elephant's behind)

 

[S3B4ST13N]

The issue is just with the title; it was very click-baity, lol and you got an appropriate response for it.

The problem I have with Frontier is that it feels more like "We are a company that makes games" instead of "We make games, but we also happen to be a company." Which is why their CM doesn't get to the standard of DE, IMHO.
There is always room for improvement; and I think Frontier should become a lot more transparent about what's going on as part of that. Other game developers have no problem telling us what's coming but this "keeping close to the chest until the last minute" was cool in the beginning; but now it's just tiresome. I mean, the FExpo showed us a road map... but it was a development schedule, it was not a road map.

Nothing wrong with being more open and transparent.

So the thread ****le was very tongue in cheek I think I called it as click baity Fdev are by no means the worst at this. And it is great they won the award. What frustrates me is the first response to this was Factabulous saying "they wont he award so you're wrong".

Warframe is indeed 100% F2P but it is sustained by engaging players and their mantra is very much that they go after the players that want to support them not feel they have to spend money which is admirable.

But Fdev are now surely relying more and more on microtransactions and their microtransaction system for cosmetics is one I'm a fan of I think it is very fair but they will get more sales by getting more people engaged.

I have bought paintjobs in the past purely to give Fdev money because I was so on board with them. Because they've completely stopped caring about the community now I'm less inclined to want to give them money just to support them.

This (as are the rest of my comments on here) is only my view and not shared by everyone

 

[Lordxenu]

The issue is just with the title; it was very click-baity, lol and you got an appropriate response for it.

The problem I have with Frontier is that it feels more like "We are a company that makes games" instead of "We make games, but we also happen to be a company." Which is why their CM doesn't get to the standard of DE, IMHO.
There is always room for improvement; and I think Frontier should become a lot more transparent about what's going on as part of that. Other game developers have no problem telling us what's coming but this "keeping close to the chest until the last minute" was cool in the beginning; but now it's just tiresome. I mean, the FExpo showed us a road map... but it was a development schedule, it was not a road map.

Nothing wrong with being more open and transparent.

Well I 100% deserve some digs for the title!

I think you hit the nail on the head there about being a company that makes games i did wonder if it would improve after Ed left but i fear its getting worse. That said whilst day to day engagement has gone down hill it does seem clear that the super secret approach is a firm policy not a cm decision.

I mean it's a good job the kept supercruise assist under wraps imagine the fallout if that had been let out the bag at the beginning of march.....

 

[VR jefranklin18]

There is always room for improvement; and I think Frontier should become a lot more transparent about what's going on as part of that. Other game developers have no problem telling us what's coming but this "keeping close to the chest until the last minute" was cool in the beginning; but now it's just tiresome. I mean, the FExpo showed us a road map... but it was a development schedule, it was not a road map.

Technically it was an ordered list of high level milestones.

For Beyond, I would have loved to have seen them be more open about not just what was coming but how it was going to be implemented. We only got to know about the revised exploration & mining mechanics until well into 2018 (after June I think) and the first public showing was at Lavecon, which was not streamed (I think they were specifically asked not to stream) and had a fraction of the player base present. Sorry, but that is not good customer engagement at all.

 

[B1rdy]

I will agree with OP on one point though; Warframe's community management is better. This is not a knock on Frontier's team! <3 you guys. Warframe is a F2P game built around the player-base (instead of the other way around); this reflects in everything the company does; from development to community engagement.

So FDev shouldn't get in contact with current player base so much in order to produce features according to their taste, but instead focus on new players in order to gain more profit from "mirco"-transactions?

The overall delay was explained in another post around May 2016. They decided to put way more features and QOL improvements into Horizons than originally intended. That might seem ironic to those who are disappointed with the quality of the the main features, but that doesn't change the fact that Horizons was way bigger than what was originally sold.

You already mentioned it. I is questionable that Horizons was bigger as sold initially. Sandro stated, that had planned something different for Engineers initially, but it turned out to be to time consuming. Multicrew hasn't received the features that were announced by Adam Woods.
And yes, player were and are disappointed about quality and features. I will not go into detail, every update of Horizons has major flaws one way or the other. So big they weren't even fixed in a year dedicated to improve the core game. That is the reason I personally would like to see some more engagement to provide us with a glance at the future. That way we would also have a chance to give feedback early in the development process and not only after the horse has already bolted - not that it helped that much in the past.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

So FDev shouldn't get in contact with current player base so much in order to produce features according to their taste, but instead focus on new players in order to gain more profit from "mirco"-transactions?

What? Who are you? Cathy Newman?

I said Warframe is player centric; whereas Frontier games are (were) not.
Player centric is when the player is treated as a key gameplay ingredient in defining the rule-sets that then drive the design of the AI and world. Frontier have, in the past, added features to ED that brought about the impression of "Does nobody at Frontier play their game?" (I've heard this a lot on the forums). This implies a less than player centric design philosophy and more of a "we'll do this, and players will do it." Hell, that "if you don't use it, we won't bother to improve it" comment from a year or so ago spoke volumes.
The recent changes and additions point to a shift in design.

Note: This an impression I'm getting. It should be taken as fact.

Warframe is completely player centric; in fact, the whole company exudes player centricity. This is how they have such a huge following; and are doing phenomenally well.

 

[B1rdy]

What? Who are you? Cathy Newman?

Lol! Who is that? I was just expanding on your comment.

I said Warframe is player centric; whereas Frontier games are (were) not.
Player centric is when the player is treated as a key gameplay ingredient in defining the rule-sets that then drive the design of the AI and world. Frontier have, in the past, added features to ED that brought about the impression of "Does nobody at Frontier play their game?" (I've heard this a lot on the forums). This implies a less than player centric design philosophy and more of a "we'll do this, and players will do it." Hell, that "if you don't use it, we won't bother to improve it" comment from a year or so ago spoke volumes.
The recent changes and additions point to a shift in design.

Yes, but at the same time they say they listen to us and they gave us dedicated forums sections for feedback. The question if they play their own game is based both on design choices and bugs as well. But some design choice are as like the last 20 year of game development didn't happen.
"If you use it enough, we might expand it" is a very logical and reasonable point of view, if the basis was solid (especially for a sold feature), however. Therefore I wouldn't say it is per se non-player centric.

 

[B1rdy]

A British journalist who has issues listening/understanding those she interviews.

Understood, like a politican but on the other side of the microphone.

 

[Lordxenu]

Was Warframe the game that removed something from the store because someone was buying it too much?

The game isnt really my thing but I've heard nothing but good things about them as a company which is saying a lot considering its a f2p game and historically companies that makes those only see players as whales and freeloaders.

Thats them they see their player base as split into loyal fans who will give them money to support them, time constrained players who like the game but will pay to not wait and out and out free players

They value all of them the same and target most of their monetisation at the loyal fans but also say things like "we could target you from the off but we want a long term relationship with so we've learned that if we try make less money from you now and focus on making you happy it works out better for all of us.

So yeah probably the best developer I've seen

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Edit: Corrected the quote/response layout.

Was Warframe the game that removed something from the store because someone was buying it too much?

Yes. They introduced a "lever jackpot" type mechanic that would colourise your alien-dog (the pattern for this alien-dog could then be sold for in game currency so it was quite lucrative if you got the nice rare colour/skin/pattern). It was effectively less than a CA$ for a roll, but someone pulled that lever like 200 times. When DE noticed they went "well, it's lucrative, but it needs to go because it's not in the spirit of Warframe" and they had it removed from the game within like 24-36 hours.

The game isnt really my thing but I've heard nothing but good things about them as a company which is saying a lot considering its a f2p game and historically companies that makes those only see players as whales and freeloaders.

When DE mess up, they own it. They are open, and honest and transparent with the community. Their DevStreams highlight what they are busy with; new things coming etc. The last Devstream they announced a planned change to one of the Warframes. I mean, this is likely months away, still in early design, but one designer was like "oh, we changing Vauban cos he starting to kinda suck with how the game has changed now." This, after he just downed a large draught, lol.

DE really are on a whole other level. Very impressed.

I think with Warframe it's because they didn't take the typical approach most F2P's do. Load it with overly priced content. All their content is decently priced and very high quality. They WANT to make a great game, and they want you to play it. They want you to stay. They love their game and it comes through.

I respect the Frontier CM's, but I don't get the sense that they play their game. With all respect to Ed, watching him fly just came across as someone who flies casually. I saw a clip of DBOBE landing an Eagle.. I was shocked at how noobish it was. Benefit of the doubt, maybe he's not used to a controller. But watch the two CM ladies play Warframe? You know those girls would be a boon to your group.

Anyway, Warframe is my most played game to date.. so.. yeah.. a bit fanboy/bias here.

Lol! Who is that? I was just expanding on your comment.

Apologies, I may have misunderstood the tone of your post.
Cathy Newman is a journalist who is, now, infamous for interviewing Jordan Peterson and deliberately misinterpreting what he has to say to achieve her own agenda.

Example:

Yes, but at the same time they say they listen to us and they gave us dedicated forums sections for feedback. The question if they play their own game is based both on design choices and bugs as well. But some design choice are as like the last 20 year of game development didn't happen.
"If you use it enough, we might expand it" is a very logical and reasonable point of view, if the basis was solid (especially for a sold feature), however. Therefore I wouldn't say it is per se non-player centric.

Thing is, DE aren't like that. If it's not being used, they will go out of their way to figure out why and then go to the drawing board and figure out a better way. It doesn't sit well with them, they will remove it. If something isn't working right, they do a hotfix. They won't leave it for a few weeks and then release an update.

The way they approach developing/maintaining Warframe is chalk and cheese to the way Frontier approaches Elite. Frontier isn't bad, just different. Though I would prefer it if they were less business-like about it.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Not at all I was deliberately pithy in telling B1rdy who it was so as not to fall foul of the mods and discussions on politics and such.

I think I need to stop putting my quote's below my responses. I'm just creating confusion and havoc!
My response was to B1rdy, lol.

 

[Lordxenu]

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/bbzfw6

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/bbzfw6/the_division_2_community_update_title_update_20/

Just spotted this on Reddit showing that Massive are another developer moving towards being more open and honest.

 

[Lordxenu]

Didnt realise that although again the division 2 is now seen as one of the most successful AAA launches in a long time and the division 1 the turn around story of it's time wonder if all the goodwill from the community and the engagement from the devs is linked.....

 

[aymerix]

But the second and most important thing they do is talk openly and honestly about the game which Fdev seem terrified of. This doesn't just mean give me more info now, they talk about things they're not happy with, like the archwing (a jet packy flying thing that is cool but adds very little to the game) the devs go on stream and laugh at how they just missed the mark and want to make it better.

I totally agree with this point (and have already mentioned it for the Fleet Carrier report, etc).
I don't play Elite anymore right now, but a lot of The Division 2: an example to follow for community managment IMHO

 

[Ralph Vargr]

A British journalist who has issues listening/understanding those she interviews.

Fox News?