Strange how people always say they are in PvP for the excitement and all. But this comment makes me think...
Does that means that if there was no way to make the difference between humans an AI, you would not make the difference?
Why are players treated differently then NPCs?
- Thread starter GimpstersGhost
- Start date
Strange how people always say they are in PvP for the excitement and all. But this comment makes me think...
Does that means that if there was no way to make the difference between humans an AI, you would not make the difference?
What does that mean?
They would not get their jollies if they didn't team up 4 Vultures on to 1 Type 6 - after all, that "is" PvP isn't it
.Real "PvPers" are having PvP fights - those moaning about lack of targets or ways to see/ find targets - are not PvPers, so I have no sympathy.
If there is no way to tell NPCs and PCs apart, then getting killed by a gank squad isn't so bad, as it was just luck of the draw. But when you know they've been sitting there for hours, looking for and only targeting humans - then you get annoyed at yourself for playing in Open to start with (See I don't even blame them - in a game that allows gank squads, you WILL get gank squads).
This leads to people leaving Open - then those same gank squads come to the forums moaning for Solo/ Group to be nerfed (to force people back to Open), Open buffed (to "encourage" people back) or to just cause problems on the forums as they struggle to cause them in game.
The real thing is, some folks want to use open, but don't want the aforementioned groups to be able to easily find them.
And as a side note - Mobius Group grew at a rate of 10 people per hour (While I was online) yesterday - Almost 8000 people when I went to bed, that should speak volumes about folks getting fed up with Open and gank squads
In the polls a year or so ago, less than 20% voted for the mode we have today where all PCs are immediately identifiable to everyone. Yet we still have it. So you have what you want, and you call that a compromise?
Ah, I see, you don't really think what we have is a compromise! Clearly (to anyone not in your camp) anything that does not mean insta-id is much preferable to what we have today. Given a choice only between today's bad mode, and some form of id only after a scan, then the id after a scan would win hands down, if less than 20% support permanent id (of course I accept the numbers may have changed - in either direction - in the year that has passed when people have seen the effect of permanent id on in action). Whilst that would be much better than what we have today, it would still not really satisfy me.
BTW: If you look at the old polls, a significant number said they would fly with the transponder on all the time (though not as many as said they would fly with it off), and further numbers voted for 50/50 or 'on most of the time'. I therefore reject the scaremongering that everyone would fly with it off (though if that did happen, it would underline that, actually, most people do not want insta-id). Everyone flying with it off would not worry me in the slightest: when there were interactions you would at least know they were more likely to be for in game reasons rather than a bully stamping on noobs for the lols.
Forgive me Jeff, but that's making one pretty big assumption without any evidence to back it up. Why would players looking for PvP use transponders? It is only those players who want to avoid PvP who will likely use them, and most of those play solo or group anyway. I think that, if anything, intelligent use of transponders will only improve the PvP game by adding to the excitement of not knowing. Both for the aggressor and the 'victim'.
I've bolded your own big assumption for you. I, and plenty of other players, enjoy Open for its interactions with various players, but don't go looking for PvP, and have little appreciation for being randomly attacked for no reason other than "for the LOLs".
I have never attacked or destroyed a player-piloted ship, but nevertheless I want to be able to see and identify other players, and for them to be able to see me, because they provide more meaningful interaction than anything else in the game. I've considered joining a PvE private group like Mobius, but honestly it's not PvP as a whole that I dislike - it's only the mindless ganking variants where players choose utterly one-sided fights for no gain or purpose other than making someone else's day worse.
This is why i wont play in open, because players can tell that i am a player, I was strongly on the side of making NPCs and players indistinguishable on the scanner mainly because I didn't want to know who i was targeting.
I don't want to be attacked JUST because I'm human, that destroys the idea of being in a real game world, I don't mind being targeted because I'm carrying valuable cargo or in a dangerous area or because I'm wanted, but being shot at because I'm not an NPC relegates the NPCs to window dressing and reminds me I'm playing a game.
The other side of the coin is it removes a large chunk of tension from the game. NPC's are easy to kill, you can drop into a warzone and just mop them up until you get bored, if i don't know which were NPC's and which were players it would put some of the tension back into the game and force you to carefully assess the risks vs rewards of a fight.
There have been many decisions made that have dragged this game down further and further away from the vision that was sold to us, while the game IS good, it could have been GREAT but FD lost their bottle and played safe in many areas despite all the talk of being able to take risks without have to appease a publisher.
I don't want to be attacked JUST because I'm human, that destroys the idea of being in a real game world, I don't mind being targeted because I'm carrying valuable cargo or in a dangerous area or because I'm wanted, but being shot at because I'm not an NPC relegates the NPCs to window dressing and reminds me I'm playing a game.
The other side of the coin is it removes a large chunk of tension from the game. NPC's are easy to kill, you can drop into a warzone and just mop them up until you get bored, if i don't know which were NPC's and which were players it would put some of the tension back into the game and force you to carefully assess the risks vs rewards of a fight.
There have been many decisions made that have dragged this game down further and further away from the vision that was sold to us, while the game IS good, it could have been GREAT but FD lost their bottle and played safe in many areas despite all the talk of being able to take risks without have to appease a publisher.
And I've bolded and underlined the proviso you chose not to include when you used only part of the sentence. So the context is actually that 'most of those that will likely want to avoid PvP play solo or group. See how the use of a proviso removes the assertion and makes it a hypothetical? Therefore this is not an assumption at all.
Last edited:
I just really fail to see the point in playing an MMO where you can't see anyone. And others can't see you.
As for why PvPers would hunt with their transponders off, well... they don't want players who are playing with transponders on to see them.
There's also ways around knowing how many people are in your instance via network traffic, which will give 'big-time' PvPers, particularly those who want to kill people, a big advantage. They can 'see you' but most people won't be able to 'see them'.
Third party tools will spring up to monitor network traffic and those will mainly be used by people looking to PvP.
As for why PvPers would hunt with their transponders off, well... they don't want players who are playing with transponders on to see them.
There's also ways around knowing how many people are in your instance via network traffic, which will give 'big-time' PvPers, particularly those who want to kill people, a big advantage. They can 'see you' but most people won't be able to 'see them'.
Third party tools will spring up to monitor network traffic and those will mainly be used by people looking to PvP.
Last edited:
Majinvash
Banned
NPC players are a waste of bandwidth, unless its part of a CG or you are deliberately hunting RES.
The most Elite Conda is a breeze to kill, the local authority is something that tickles you while you scoop up cargo and the rest of the interdictions from shieldless Eagles or a Cobra with two sidewinder escorts are just annoying.
NPC are in there to fluff out the terrible P2P programming and ability to only have 32max players in an instance.
That doesn't even work, when have you EVER seen more than maybe 20 in an instance? Usually in a station, but super rarely in SC.
Solo and Private are another thing that means NPC have to exist.
IF there was one open mode and you could see all the players in the area because a) It wasn't limited to 32 and b) the instancing mechanic worked.
You would probably see maybe several hundred in an popular area ( Yeah i know the power to do this with out huge lag isn't really there ) , wings would work properly. So that a trade protection wing actually meant something to pirates and the traders would be one of many many targets.
At the moment, instancing will generally drop 1-3 traders into an instance with other players looking to pirate or just simply blow you away ( not griefing that doesn't exist )
However as that is unlikely to happen in this version of ED.. Maybe ED2
PVP'iers would just look at the names. The name Cmdr would be a huge give away.
If they took the Cmdr part away, still wouldn't matter.
Then we would just interdict even more and start shooting without asking first, as NPC's don't get warnings.
I don't bother with NPC's unless the instancing is SUPER bad and I haven't seen a player for ages and as something to do.
Not being able to instantly see who is a player or an NPC would make very little difference to the games current state, even Powerplay isn't going to change much of the current instancing or match making.
I think the only place you might be safer is in a CZ.
Majinvash
The most Elite Conda is a breeze to kill, the local authority is something that tickles you while you scoop up cargo and the rest of the interdictions from shieldless Eagles or a Cobra with two sidewinder escorts are just annoying.
NPC are in there to fluff out the terrible P2P programming and ability to only have 32max players in an instance.
That doesn't even work, when have you EVER seen more than maybe 20 in an instance? Usually in a station, but super rarely in SC.
Solo and Private are another thing that means NPC have to exist.
IF there was one open mode and you could see all the players in the area because a) It wasn't limited to 32 and b) the instancing mechanic worked.
You would probably see maybe several hundred in an popular area ( Yeah i know the power to do this with out huge lag isn't really there ) , wings would work properly. So that a trade protection wing actually meant something to pirates and the traders would be one of many many targets.
At the moment, instancing will generally drop 1-3 traders into an instance with other players looking to pirate or just simply blow you away ( not griefing that doesn't exist )
However as that is unlikely to happen in this version of ED.. Maybe ED2
PVP'iers would just look at the names. The name Cmdr would be a huge give away.
If they took the Cmdr part away, still wouldn't matter.
Then we would just interdict even more and start shooting without asking first, as NPC's don't get warnings.
I don't bother with NPC's unless the instancing is SUPER bad and I haven't seen a player for ages and as something to do.
Not being able to instantly see who is a player or an NPC would make very little difference to the games current state, even Powerplay isn't going to change much of the current instancing or match making.
I think the only place you might be safer is in a CZ.
Majinvash
There is already a handy in game CTRL&B player detector. It won't tell you which is which but it will tell you if there are no players/some players.
One thing that annoys me about all this is 'player choice'. Basically players who don't really want to interact with others have a choice: Solo. Those who want to play with friends: Groups. But those who want to play in a truly open universe with random people have only Open left. And people continously want to water that down as well... And again, 'choice' is used as the battlecry.
And I repeat again. Not a PvPer. Hate Griefers. Have no interest in PvP. For me this is about the success of the game. And I think a truly open world with other people is vital to that as it's what attracts a lot of people here. People who DON'T want that already have options (Mobius is a fantastic alternative to Open and I hope it grows as a viable alternative). Thos who Do, won't have if something like this was ever implemented.
Besides, why would anyone want to play in open without interacting with others?
And I repeat again. Not a PvPer. Hate Griefers. Have no interest in PvP. For me this is about the success of the game. And I think a truly open world with other people is vital to that as it's what attracts a lot of people here. People who DON'T want that already have options (Mobius is a fantastic alternative to Open and I hope it grows as a viable alternative). Thos who Do, won't have if something like this was ever implemented.
Besides, why would anyone want to play in open without interacting with others?
Last edited:
Nobody, I would presume. However, it doesn't have to require the in-game equivalent of waiting about with a pink carnation in your lapel. Surely it's obvious who is an NPC and who isn't without needing any scanner assistance? And, if NPCs are eventually good enough that it is not easy to tell us apart from our virtual counterparts by our behaviour alone, what is exactly the drawback - not being able to taste real tears? Perhaps a few random NPCs can even post a screenshot of their killer on reddit accompanied by expressions of anger...
How on earth can anyone be against more player choice? As has already been stated, those who want to play the PvP game would be able to activate their transponders and let everyone know that they are up for PvP. Those who don't, won't. Everyone is happy... except of course those who just want to... but nah, surely that couldn't be the reason... could it?
But really, it isn't so much about this, or groups or solo. It's about creating that extra edge, that REALISTIC edge of not quite knowing if that guy over there is a Players... sorry 'Pilots' Federation member or not. So yes, the out and out PvPers can storm away at each other with their transponders on. Those with their transponders off are playing a sneakier game, an edgier game... feel those hairs on the back of your neck rise.
So no, let's not limit player choice, please.Edited to add: Oh and have you thought of this? The ability to have these transponders might just entice more players back to open. Something to think about.
Last edited:
How on earth can anyone be against more player choice? As has already been stated, those who want to play the PvP game would be able to activate their transponders and let everyone know that they are up for PvP. Those who don't, won't. Everyone is happy... except of course those who just want to... but nah, surely that couldn't be the reason... could it?
But really, it isn't so much about this, or groups or solo. It's about creating that extra edge, that REALISTIC edge of not quite knowing if that guy over there is a Players... sorry 'Pilots' Federation member or not. So yes, the out and out PvPers can storm away at each other with their transponders on. Those with their transponders off are playing a sneakier game, an edgier game... feel those hairs on the back of your neck rise.
Edited to add: Oh and have you thought of this? The ability to have these transponders might just entice more players back to open. Something to think about.
Both of you make great points. I have not come to a final stance on this yet.
For the present, I am in Mobius with occasional entries into open for the sake of seeking out like minded players who wish wing up and bloody the noses of gankers.
I do think that the growth of the Mobius Group is going to be an unintended answer to the player transponder debate.
I can see the day when Mobius numbers exceed open numbers.
Fly well Cmdrs....
atak2
A
Open should remain the risky, dynamic universe it is where players can indentify other players and interact with them unconditionally. The whole reason I play is to have encounters with others whether they are beneficial or detrimental to my progress.
Solo, group and Möbius exist for players wanting to limit their interaction. I would even be fine with a PvE mode for these players but leave Open out of it.
Solo, group and Möbius exist for players wanting to limit their interaction. I would even be fine with a PvE mode for these players but leave Open out of it.
Are the players in open for the main purpose of watching the galaxy burn/going after hollow icons not limiting their "interaction"?
Last edited:
Having transponders won't limit your game. Like a said, anyone who WANTS to play the PvP game just fires up their transponder and have at it. Oh and please don't use a general term like 'interact' as a cover for PvP. I too may want to interact with players, I just don't always want to do it with weapons.